HiRez Poll Marillion - SCRIPT FOR A JESTER'S TEAR [Blu-Ray Audio]

[César]

All the albums whose sound recording copyright is still owned by Parlophone (formerly EMI) are planned—that is, Script through Sunlight. So, just Fugazi, Seasons, and Holidays left to go, now.

I wish they would include This Strange Engine and Marbles, as I honestly for the rest I can live without the surround.
But there are not so many left, Anoraknophobia. Dot Com, Happiness and for the rest we already have multichannel mixes, am I missing any?

 

[sstevee00]

I wish they would include This Strange Engine and Marbles, as I honestly for the rest I can live without the surround.
But there are not so many left, Anoraknophobia. Dot Com, Happiness and for the rest we already have multichannel mixes, am I missing any?

The full Somewhere Else album has not been mixed/released in 5.1 to my knowledge. They did include 5.1 mixes of 4 of the tracks on the Somewhere In London DVD set, but the rest of the album has yet to get the 5.1 treatment.

 

[JulesRules]

I'm passing your comments and questions along.

Okay, first post (some might know me from another forum) - registered here after looking in from time to time because this is hugely interesting to me even though I can't listen to any surround at the moment. My big question, after hearing the stereo remix of CAS and seeing the DR numbers for Script:

Why can't Bradfield/Mackintosh employ the same "No mastering after the remix" rule that has worked wonders for Steven Wilson? Steven's mixes, as well as Marillion's own latest "With Friends from the Orchestra", prove that the loudness war is simply unnecessary.

And if you can pass on a compliment to Andy for his work on Gary Moore's stellar 1997 album "Dark Days in Paradise", that would be just fine by me. (Actually, that's an album that could really do with a 5.1 mix...)

All the albums whose sound recording copyright is still owned by Parlophone (formerly EMI) are planned—that is, Script through Sunlight. So, just Fugazi, Seasons, and Holidays left to go, now.

Well, it would technically still be possible to remix and reissue the live albums, and perhaps B-Sides Themselves or an extension featuring all those songs that were left off. But I wouldn't count on it.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Okay, first post (some might know me from another forum) - registered here after looking in from time to time because this is hugely interesting to me even though I can't listen to any surround at the moment. My big question, after hearing the stereo remix of CAS and seeing the DR numbers for Script:

Why can't Bradfield/Mackintosh employ the same "No mastering after the remix" rule that has worked wonders for Steven Wilson? Steven's mixes, as well as Marillion's own latest "With Friends from the Orchestra", prove that the loudness war is simply unnecessary.

And if you can pass on a compliment to Andy for his work on Gary Moore's stellar 1997 album "Dark Days in Paradise", that would be just fine by me. (Actually, that's an album that could really do with a 5.1 mix...)

Passed along. I'm not sure they have much say over the mastering, but we'll see what the response is. And I'm sure he'll appreciate the compliment.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Okay, first post (some might know me from another forum) - registered here after looking in from time to time because this is hugely interesting to me even though I can't listen to any surround at the moment. My big question, after hearing the stereo remix of CAS and seeing the DR numbers for Script:

Why can't Bradfield/Mackintosh employ the same "No mastering after the remix" rule that has worked wonders for Steven Wilson? Steven's mixes, as well as Marillion's own latest "With Friends from the Orchestra", prove that the loudness war is simply unnecessary.

Can you elaborate on the DR numbers for Script that you saw? I've asked their opinions of the mastering for the set and they say that the mastering is really good, on all the discs, in their opinion.

From Avril:
"A lot of care was taken with the stereo mastering and we checked it at every step - Simon Frances is an amazing mastering engineer.

Andy was one of the first mixers to go on about mixing and Mastering Loudness as far back as I remember - even in the 2000 when no one talked about it!
Correct gain staging was something he would go on about all the time to his assistants..."

From Andy:
"Re Mastering question, are you talking about the album(s) or the 5.1?
I think the stereo mix is bang on where it should be - and it’s considerably quieter than a lot of modern records. But I am not of the opinion these things should be a particular level either.
Had we not mastered it I think some people would be saying the opposite, so you can’t really win!"

 

[JulesRules]

All you need to do is read the thread over at SH.TV, and compare the DR (7-8) with the live concert (8-9), or the old remaster (9-10, much more suitable), or the box set versions of Misplaced Childhood (Hunter remaster, 9-11), Brave (Wilson remix, 9-16), Afraid of Sunlight (Hunter remix, 8-11) ... or on the recent front, With Friends from the Orchestra (Hunter, 9-12). Only Clutching at Straws (8-10, compared to the original's 11-15 or the old remaster's 10-13) was the sore thumb of the series so far. I thought the compression on that was simply unnecessary, and I'll likely feel the same here (I'm not sure I've heard much with a DR of 7 without noticing the limiting...). Sure, it's miles away from Ozzy Osbourne's new album! But this is Marillion we're talking about, and I find the trend discomforting, especially since these are replacing the original mixes on future CD releases.

DR values were posted here: Marillion - Script For a Jester's Tear 4/3/2020 Deluxe Edition (4CD/Blu ray/4LP) + Documentary

I don't think anybody complained when @Steven Wilson stopped allowing others to master his remixes. In fact, the unmastered stereo version of Aqualung (45th anniv) is almost universally praised over the original 40th anniversary release mastered by Peter Mew. It's also not true that nobody was talking about the loudness wars in the 2000s (e.g. Rush's Vapor Trails, Bob Speer's post about the Grammys from 2001!!!! ["Everything they listened to was squashed to death with heavy amounts compression."]).

Quoting a few opinions from there (starting with Marillion - Script For a Jester's Tear 4/3/2020 Deluxe Edition (4CD/Blu ray/4LP) + Documentary )

Edit: It seems this part was too contentious. Well, you can read all the opinions by simply following the above link. I will keep this screenshot though. Every picture tells a story...

 

[JulesRules]

Forgot to mention, yes, this is about the stereo mix (and therefore maybe not in the right thread...)

 

[splinter7]

Quoting a few opinions from there (starting with Marillion - Script For a Jester's Tear 4/3/2020 Deluxe Edition (4CD/Blu ray/4LP) + Documentary ):

"the Blu-ray is loud"

"This stereo remix is god awful. Drums sound like someone smacking a cardboard box with a mallet. These barely sound like the same songs anymore (sans He Knows You Know which received the least damage somehow).
Makes the Collins-era Genesis remixes sound good in comparison. No hyperbole."

"remixed album doesn't sound too bad (a little bright/loud in places - but not the hatched job they did on CAS)"

"Keeping in mind that this is NOT a high end system, it is loud & squashed, but not as much as I would have expected."

"There is little question that Marillion prefers a louder, screechier mastering than I do."


"Listening to the remaster of the title track at the moment.
My god, this sounds worse than the 2007 remix of Duke. And that's a really low bar... this is one of the most compressed releases I've ever heard, it's stupid loud
The vocal tracking sounds unnatural, like I understand this is a remix, and some of these are obviously alternative takes, but some of these choices are just strange."

"I'm a bit skeptical about those reviews of the stereo remix. I have listened to it and have compared it to the original mix (my old non-remastered CD). The Genesis remixes come to mind.... I find this stereo remix to be loud, compressed and quite unfaithful to the original 80s production. The vocals are too loud and the punch of the drums is gone. The remix is warmer, quiet parts are a bit louder and are more detailed. I don't see any other advantages. It's been already shelved!"

"This is where I am with it.
Too loud, rhythm section is drowned."

Complete Rubbish! The commentator had to have the versions confused. The new stereo mix offers a significant improvement on overall clarity. BS about the drums sounding like a cardboard box. Almost every instrument benefits from more clarity.

Perhaps the low end does quite have the same low end thud accentuated in the mix but then again it doesn’t sound as muffled as the previous versions. I can hear the differences in the drums and you can now hear Pete’s bass lines instead of just an over saturation of bass.

The writer says that rhythm section is drowned. On the contrary, I am amazed at hearing Pete’s bass in a whole new spotlight.

The vocals are fine. Main vocals are cleaner.
Alterations have been made with some of backing vocal effects and that throws off a long time listener a little but not to the point of calling it unrecognizable. The biggest change seems to be a slightly changed outro to Script. The new mix doesn’t fade out as quickly and Fish repeats the “Do you love me” line a few more times and with different inflection.

He compares the new mix unfavorably to the original mix as well. That is the mix that has a strange dropout in volume just after Script starts.

I have loved this band since the beginning.
This is stereo mix is an overall huge improvement over anything that has come before. One of the writers states that he is “skeptical about those reviews of the stereo mix”. I say be skeptical about what JulesRules has quoted others saying.

The 5.1 mix may be a bit of a letdown but they almost got the new stereo mix perfect. A little more kick on the low end would have been cool.

 

[sjcorne]

But this is Marillion we're talking about, and I find the trend discomforting, especially since these are replacing the original mixes on future CD releases.

It's really not hard to locate an old CD or stream the original mix, and it seems a little odd to be talking about future CD releases when we just got this Deluxe Edition.

The numbers may confirm that the stereo remix is less dynamic than the original, but I don't find it to be fatiguing to listen to at all. The startling improvement in clarity is worth losing a bit of dynamic range, in my opinion at least. I agree with @splinter7 - quite a bit of hyperbole in that thread over at SHF.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I've only been able to compare the new 5.1 mix to my original CD.

The new 5.1 beats the original mix to a bloody pulp, in terms of fidelity. It sounds wonderful. It just sucks as a surround mix. You can shut the surrounds off and lose almost no important part. You lose some immersion, yes.

 

[halbroome]

Sigh, still awaiting a shipment from Amazon UK .

 

[minimumtumbleweed]

It's really not hard to locate an old CD or stream the original mix, and it seems a little odd to be talking about future CD releases when we just got this Deluxe Edition.

The numbers may confirm that the stereo remix is less dynamic than the original, but I don't find it to be fatiguing to listen to at all. The startling improvement in clarity is worth losing a bit of dynamic range, in my opinion at least. I agree with @splinter7 - quite a bit of hyperbole in that thread over at SHF.

I'm going to have to agree. I've only heard the stereo mix, but it completely thrashes the original mix. The DR is a bit lower, but it's actually pleasant to listen to this album now. Just the opening piano chord on Script, really blows the original mix out of the water.

 

[Albert Dagger]

Complete Rubbish! The commentator had to have the versions confused. The new stereo mix offers a significant improvement on overall clarity. BS about the drums sounding like a cardboard box. Almost every instrument benefits from more clarity.

Perhaps the low end does quite have the same low end thud accentuated in the mix but then again it doesn’t sound as muffled as the previous versions. I can hear the differences in the drums and you can now hear Pete’s bass lines instead of just an over saturation of bass.

The writer says that rhythm section is drowned. On the contrary, I am amazed at hearing Pete’s bass in a whole new spotlight.

The vocals are fine. Main vocals are cleaner.
Alterations have been made with some of backing vocal effects and that throws off a long time listener a little but not to the point of calling it unrecognizable. The biggest change seems to be a slightly changed outro to Script. The new mix doesn’t fade out as quickly and Fish repeats the “Do you love me” line a few more times and with different inflection.

He compares the new mix unfavorably to the original mix as well. That is the mix that has a strange dropout in volume just after Script starts.

I have loved this band since the beginning.
This is stereo mix is an overall huge improvement over anything that has come before. One of the writers states that he is “skeptical about those reviews of the stereo mix”. I say be skeptical about what JulesRules has quoted others saying.

The 5.1 mix may be a bit of a letdown but they almost got the new stereo mix perfect. A little more kick on the low end would have been cool.

Clarity is not the issue, nor the bass. However, you'll agree with me these are not the only parameters to assess a new stereo mix. I'm one of the writers quoted above, and what I said went far beyond mentioning I was skeptical of good reviews. Please read the entire sentence to realise I have no issues with clarity, nor with bass. I don't rank the new stereo remix above the original mix for other reasons. I generally do my comparisons with level-matched tracks on Audacity and listening through speakers, not headphones. Anyway, that's only my opinion, and I am entitled to have it. If that is a too high of a bar for what a good remix is, then I am not that easy to please!
"I'm a bit skeptical about those reviews of the stereo remix. I have listened to it and have compared it to the original mix (my old non-remastered CD). The Genesis remixes come to mind.... I find this stereo remix to be loud, compressed and quite unfaithful to the original 80s production. The vocals are too loud and the punch of the drums is gone. The remix is warmer, quiet parts are a bit louder and are more detailed. I don't see any other advantages. It's been already shelved!"

 

[Bravado]

(First Post). Hello everybody. I'm new on this forum and just made my first vote.
Unfortunately it isn't the vote I was hoping for, because I gave this package a 5.
The main reason is of course the disappointing surround mix. I fully agree with the statement of MCDave in de beginning of this topic, so I don't have to repeat it again.
The package however looks very nice and also the content is ok with the addition of the different live concerts (both audio and Video).
But still I gave it a 5 due to the fact the EP Market Square Heroes is only present in stereo.
Such a missed opportunity to have f.i. Grendel in a good surround mix.
Let's just hope my next post will be more positive

 

[Clement]

(First Post). Hello everybody. I'm new on this forum and just made my first vote.
Unfortunately it isn't the vote I was hoping for, because I gave this package a 5.
The main reason is of course the disappointing surround mix. I fully agree with the statement of MCDave in de beginning of this topic, so I don't have to repeat it again.
The package however looks very nice and also the content is ok with the addition of the different live concerts (both audio and Video).
But still I gave it a 5 due to the fact the EP Market Square Heroes is only present in stereo.
Such a missed opportunity to have f.i. Grendel in a good surround mix.
Let's just hope my next post will be more positive

WELCOME! You never forget your first! Glad to have you aboard--keep up the candid and astute posts and Stay Surrounded, Comrade!

 

[splinter7]

@albertop: Your certainly entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Are all the referenced quotes attributed to you or just the part you indicated in your reply?

I honestly can't believe that anyone thinks this is not an improvement to previous stereo mixes. So I apologize but I am gonna stick by my original call and remain befuddled by these comments. I don't hear these compression concerns. Aside from the lack of "punch" in the drums (I agree with you there) this new stereo mix is such a marked upgrade to my ears.

What do you mean by unfaithful to the original "80's production? I am no authority but I would think the point of a remix is to attempt to correct what was perceived to be wrong with the original. Given that, any new remix would - I think be unfaithful to the previous production. No?

 

[splinter7]

On a related Marillion note: Their manager mentioned in a facebook post that the band's next deluxe issue of Fugazi will also be handled by Bradfield/Mackintosh.

Hopefully @edisonbaggins can remain in contact with them and help sway their mixing approach and desire to get all the b-sides in 5.1. Cinderella Search isn't as long as Grendel. Top marks for getting in touch with them!

 

[JulesRules]

@albertop: Your certainly entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Are all the referenced quotes attributed to you or just the part you indicated in your reply?

I didn't include the links to the forum for no reason - you could just check out how the thread went. Those comments came from several different people. And yes, there were positive comments too, which I could've included too... but there are people who also liked the Sgt. Pepper stereo remix or the already mentioned Genesis ones. SHF usually is a good source of opinions when it comes to the lowdown on good mixing/mastering. People over there talked about the loudness wars long before other music fans even noticed.

As for me personally, I still haven't heard it yet, but my main gripe with the Clutching at Straws mix was (apart from some "lost" details like the dual keyboard solo in "Just for the Record" or the guitar riff at a key moment of "That Time of the Night") its increase of loudness, again to me unnecessary and it probably would've sounded better without it (perhaps even, yes, better than the original mix!) - we had this situation in the 90s and 00s already with actually good remixes or remastering of classic albums hampered by the misguided attempt at "making it louder".

I generally do my comparisons with level-matched tracks on Audacity

Me too, and of course all the tinkering with dynamics gets pointless when you level-match - which is something I also do whenever I listen to a CD. I always adjust the volume to a level I find appealing. Sadly turning it down doesn't restore what was sacrificed to make it louder. Sad, really.

I say be skeptical about what JulesRules has quoted others saying.

Personal attack much? Don't shoot the messenger! The quotes are all verbatim. Again, read the thread, I made none of this up.

The numbers may confirm that the stereo remix is less dynamic than the original, but I don't find it to be fatiguing to listen to at all. The startling improvement in clarity is worth losing a bit of dynamic range, in my opinion at least.

I don't see the connection between the two, and every Steven Wilson mix shows that there is no need for losing much dynamic range in order to improve clarity. That's why I posted my question as such, because I'm getting the impression that the results would be better if the mixes had simply been released without additional mastering. One might argue that mastering is overrated anyway, unless it's specifically for vinyl.

 

[splinter7]

To both @JulesRules & @albertop, you may be taking this a little too much to heart.
"Quite offensive" that I called some comments "rubbish"? If I made a personal attack, I wouldn't be shy about using some stronger language.
To @albertop - I will then apologize and re-phrase that I strongly do not find validity in all the views expressed in the post.

To @JulesRules, I find it off that you haven't even heard the mix yet but post a comment filled with negative quotes from another forum.

To all the other quadies, I apologize for my rant. It isn't even related to the 5.1 mix.

A good Easter to all - stay safe (and go listen to the track "Easter" off of Marillion's album "Seasons End". Awesome guitar solo)

 

[César]

To both @JulesRules & @albertop, you may be taking this a little too much to heart.
"Quite offensive" that I called some comments "rubbish"? If I made a personal attack, I wouldn't be shy about using some stronger language.
To @albertop - I will then apologize and re-phrase that I strongly do not find validity in all the views expressed in the post.

To @JulesRules, I find it off that you haven't even heard the mix yet but post a comment filled with negative quotes from another forum.

To all the other quadies, I apologize for my rant. It isn't even related to the 5.1 mix.

A good Easter to all - stay safe (and go listen to the track "Easter" off of Marillion's album "Seasons End". Awesome guitar solo)

Now that you mention Easter, the boys re-recorded it from home: