Mixing Frank Zappa's Hot Rats in surround

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Simplepast Presentperfect

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Aug 27, 2020
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119
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I am working on a personal project: using released studio material from the album to make true surround tracks. Starting with Little umbrellas, a track that I know inside out since I transcribed the complete bass line some time ago.
Fortunately there are 2 very distinct releases, for Little umbrellas for example the 1969 original mix (re-released in CD in 2012) has prominent bass and faint piano backing, the 1987 remix by FZ has a prominent piano backing. The Hot Rats Session set box brings all the rhythm tracks (bass, drums & piano), and for some of them also an alternate mix. The alternate mix for Little umbrellas sounds actually quite good, it is a good balance between the 1969 and 1987 mixes, but in my opinion won't bring any distinctive additional spacial information.
The sound I have in my head is more or less a quad using the 1969 mix up front and the 1987 release in the back at a somewhat lower volume. That way I get to appreciate what FZ wanted us to appreciate back in 1987 while being true to the original idea, which I prefer. Considering using the rhythm track in the center and low-passing it at 400 Hz to feed the LFE channel.
Any ideas / suggestions?
 
So you have no intentions of using anything from The Hot Rats Session box? Or is nothing there isolated enough to bother with?

I like these types of projects, fan remixes when the multis are there especially and no upmixing is required.
 
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So you have no intentions of using anything from The Hot Rats Session box? Or is nothing there isolated enough to bother with?

I like these types of projects, fan remixes when the multis are especially and no upmixing is required.
Actually I do plan to use the rhythm track, but first I am working on the quad mix. You have to match the legth of the tracks, the 1987 mix being slightly longer. I just used Audacity and adjusted its tempo by +0.7%, for a first rough approach it sounds OK. I used the left channel as reference. My only concern about the rhythm track at the center is that it brings the backing piano to the front, defeating what I wanted to achieve within the limitations of the available material. The fairly panned piano can be attenuated by extracting the center of the track, maybe lowering the volume to some degree it can be a positive addition.
 
Actually I do plan to use the rhythm track, but first I am working on the quad mix. You have to match the legth of the tracks, the 1987 mix being slightly longer. I just used Audacity and adjusted its tempo by +0.7%, for a first rough approach it sounds OK. I used the left channel as reference. My only concern about the rhythm track at the center is that it brings the backing piano to the front, defeating what I wanted to achieve within the limitations of the available material. The fairly panned piano can be attenuated by extracting the center of the track, maybe lowering the volume to some degree it can be a positive addition.
I just noticed the typo. The tempo must be only adjusted by +0.07%. The quad sounds OK but somehow not entirely satisfying, not "surrounding" enough. I lowered the volume of the rear channels by 7 db. Needs some more tweaking, I am open for suggestions !
 
I like changing time length of a track to match another, using Sony Vegas because you can stretch it to match visually. Or squeeze one of them down shorter to match. No guessing about percentage needed to be set,

But I’m not looking at your track timeline.

I’ve wanted to do some Monkees quad mixes using tracks already separated as released. No doubt some nicer things can be done now since Quarters was tossed out 20 years or so ago. Maybe I should at least get the tracks sync’d up in a 24/96kHz timeline while I have the time on my hands.
 
I am working on a personal project: using released studio material from the album to make true surround tracks. Starting with Little umbrellas, a track that I know inside out since I transcribed the complete bass line some time ago.
Fortunately there are 2 very distinct releases, for Little umbrellas for example the 1969 original mix (re-released in CD in 2012) has prominent bass and faint piano backing, the 1987 remix by FZ has a prominent piano backing. The Hot Rats Session set box brings all the rhythm tracks (bass, drums & piano), and for some of them also an alternate mix. The alternate mix for Little umbrellas sounds actually quite good, it is a good balance between the 1969 and 1987 mixes, but in my opinion won't bring any distinctive additional spacial information.
The sound I have in my head is more or less a quad using the 1969 mix up front and the 1987 release in the back at a somewhat lower volume. That way I get to appreciate what FZ wanted us to appreciate back in 1987 while being true to the original idea, which I prefer. Considering using the rhythm track in the center and low-passing it at 400 Hz to feed the LFE channel.
Any ideas / suggestions?
Sounds like a cool idea and there may just be enough separated material to pull it off!
I like Frankenstein projects like this that uncover interesting stuff!

Suggestions?

I'd bring all the sources into Reaper DAW. Reaper has Elastique Pro time/pitch stretch algorithm which is genuinely lossless in veri-speed mode. (Classic linked speed/pitch like how an analog tape deck worked. And that's what this job specifically calls for.) You would be able to sync up all the different sources which will all have unique speed profiles from the different transfers of different analog generations. You'd probably be able to nail all this in just a couple or few hours and land with everything in perfect sync with zero loss or artifacts. This part is 98% of the difficult/critical work! And the part that would have literally been impossible to pull off before lossless linked veri-speed correction became available in recent times.

Then you'd be free to roll up your sleeves and get creative! Any further separation beyond what's on the surface of those mixes could very likely be pulled off with some targeted nulling with artifact free results. You would have a genuine separated (at least mostly) multitrack to work from. You could end up with a really genuine intentional surround mix! (As opposed to the "I guess this random result from the upmix is cool" approach.)

Very cool idea! :)
 
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Sounds like a cool idea and there may just be enough separated material to pull it off!
I like Frankenstein projects like this that uncover interesting stuff!

Suggestions?

I'd bring all the sources into Reaper DAW. Reaper has Elastique Pro time/pitch stretch algorithm which is genuinely lossless in veri-speed mode. (Classic linked speed/pitch like how an analog tape deck worked. And that's what this job specifically calls for.) You would be able to sync up all the different sources which will all have unique speed profiles from the different transfers of different analog generations. You'd probably be able to nail all this in just a couple or few hours and land with everything in perfect sync with zero loss or artifacts. This part is 98% of the difficult/critical work! And the part that would have literally been impossible to pull off before lossless linked veri-speed correction became available in recent times.

Then you'd be free to roll up your sleeves and get creative! Any further separation beyond what's on the surface of those mixes could very likely be pulled off with some targeted nulling with artifact free results. You would have a genuine separated (at least mostly) multitrack to work from. You could end up with a really genuine intentional surround mix! (As opposed to the "I guess this random result from the upmix is cool" approach.)

Very cool idea! :)
Thank you for the suggestions and encouragement !

I finished a 5.1 mix of Little umbrellas following what I tried to explain. It was a "proof of concept" and of course it can be improved, but to my very subjective standards 2 or 3 of the different mixes are a sonic improvement over the official stereo mixes.

Next I listened to the other tracks and reviewed the available material. Below my comments, but in general I observe that Little umbrellas has the most striking instrument separation front / rear, making it the ideal candidate for the treatment. The underlying concept for the album remix being along the lines used in several if not most studio surround releases, keeping keyboards on the back along any extras / overdubs.

Peaches in regalia: Here the separation front / rear is not as clear, the center of the backing track could be positioned in the center channel, its panned piano mixed in the rear channels.
Willie the pimp: the exception where I tend to prefer the 1987 remix. The bass is removed at the start entering at the 3rd beat of the 4th bar. Not sure what I would position front / rear, maybe I as in the others the 1987 mix at the rear channels. The highlight here would be to use the isolated vocals from the Hot Rats Sessions in the center channel. The available backing track is unedited and much longer, not much worth using it in my opinion. Instead I'd feed the LFE with a low pass of a mono mix. There are also 2 tracks with guitar overdubs available, intriguing how these could be used.
Son of Mr Green genes: there are enough differences in the overdubs of the 1969/1987 mixes to create a quite interesting surround mix. The rhythm track is over a minute longer, requiring some detective work if it merits being used in the center and LFE channels.
The gumbo variations: here it gets complicated, sonically not much difference between the 1969 and 1987 mixes, the 1987 remix being 4 minutes longer (which I never really cared for). There is no rhythm track, just the unedited 32 minute jam. A lot of work for not much audio enhancement.
It must be a camel: less differences than in Son of Mr Green genes but still interesting enough. The rhythm tracks could be used similarly as suggested in Peaches in regalia to compensate, but as it is split in two sections some detective /extra work is necessary.

In general I think that a somewhat "intentional" surround mix with the available material is entirely possible. Some tracks are relatively straightforward and potentially very rewarding (Little umbrellas, Peaches in regalia, son of Mr Greens). Willie the pimp has even more potential but requires much more work. It must be a camel less rewarding and some work. The gumbo variations offers the least potential and requires a fair amount work and patience.

I have worked with Reaper in the past and became quite proficient, but it is a use or lose thing and I find it very frustrating to have to re-learn everything. I will follow your suggestions and do some trials with the "low hanging fruit".

One quick question: what do you mean exactly by "some targeted nulling with artifact free results"? Any specific ideas?
 
My favourite zappa album would love to hear the results of your work when completed.

That Hot Rats box is a treasure trove
I consider it a open ended work in progress and more than anything a vehicle to learn about mixing and surround. I hope that if the multitracks are available some day we will see a proper surround release. If that one way or another is not possible, that a surround mix can be salvaged from the available stereo material but done professionally from 96/24 masters.
I also consider the Hot Rats Sessions a treasure trove. I initially thought that it was a lost opportunity for a surround release, but the generous amount of high quality material exceeding the scope of the album and the carefully reconstructed session work totally exceeded my expectations. In my opinion the best FZ release so far. After a quick listen in Spotify I bought it immediately.
 
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