Modern DVD-A authoring programs

[neil wilkes]

Documentation (user guides, etc) about Sonic's products is in exceedingly difficult to find (when Sonic went away the information went away too it seems) - most of the links that come up are to bogus/questionable download sites. I finally did find a draft copy of the DVD-Audio Creator user guide (incomplete with sections "Under construction" or with gibberish text). From what I can see Creator isn't a single/integrated program but rather a set of near-commandline type of programs that assemble pre-made assets. Thus you don't need Sonic Studio HD or One Click DVD at all - if you can create the audio files using the compressors/editors of your choice that's fine, ditto for the menus, etc. The problem is a lot of the "heavy lifting" for navigation and the like needs to be done using Scenarist scripting and documentation for that is as hard or harder to find as for DVD-Audio Creator.

If the folks at Mediachance.com (who make DVDLab Pro) did a DVD-A tool it'd probably be a couple hundred dollars and be a heck of a lot easier to use than Sonic's software :howl Maybe I'll make that suggestion to them - can't hurt to try

Sonic documentation is indeed very difficult to find.
It also doesn't help matters that the, hem "educational version" available is a very old one (3.0.5) and moreover is quite different in usage compared to the build I use (3.0 (11) and 3.0 (12) ) that any documentation from my installation will not help. My version uses a combined "COMMAND EDIT" applet (DVD-Audio Creator is actually a series of 6 or 7 different tools, depending on your version) whereas the "other" version uses separate COMMAND EDIT & AUTHOR tools - one is what you use to map the disc content, the other to actually set all the commands in buttons & on menu pre-post areas. Mine does all this in one go.

You are correct in what you say - that version is indeed near command line but with a small GUI element. You do need to know the way the format is structured to be able to build a disc, but once you get to grips with it it is actually faster than DiscWelder to create a very basic no frills disc in Sonic DAC. You also must know the DVD-A heirarchy if making a complex title in Chrome, otherwise certain things on menus will be impossible and you will not understand why.

All this said, the hardest part to create is actually the Video_TS you will need as you cannot use an Abstraction Layer tool to do this or you will get a spec fail on import to DAC. AL tools always make extensive use of dummy configurations to make their discs, and this will not work with DVD-A use as there are some pretty heavy restrictions on VTS titles to import them legally.
Best tools? DVD Creator on the Mac, OS9. Unavailable for years though. Ditto Spruce Maestro (this did create spec compliant Video_TS, but when Apple bought it & turned it into DVDSP they killed all that).
DVD-Lab Pro is probably the best tool to make these as long as you know how to use it without the AL as it is one very flexible tool indeed. It also has full scripting support, and you can write all as VM commands manually instead of having to use the abstraction layer generated code via drag & drop. Also invaluable is the PDF series "The Unofficial DVD Specifications" as it details all the VM commands & explains their usage & syntax.

The hard yards are all in the asset preparation & understanding the limitations of the format - and the workarounds.
It will be a crying shame if DVD-A/V dies, as done right it is still THE most cost effective way to release surround. Blu-ray allows more content but at a hefty price point.

 

[schultz1010]

Ah, so the world supply of DVD-A does depend on a XP/32 system - amazing! :yikes

Thank you Neil for chiming in - you clarified a couple of questions I had and and provided some interesting information.

For AC3 I have Apple's Compressor - works well. Haven't bothered with DTS (yet) but I see Minnetonka has a plugin for Compressor3 that would do the job.

For the VIDEO_TS I'm having a bit of a problem - DVD Studio Pro's useless (AL issues aside there are other things DVDSP can't do). I am evaluating DVD-LabPro - creating a Menu with multiple cells and an audio file per cell is supposed to work (according to the manual) but the resulting VIDEO_TS directory has bombed in all 7 (5 software and 2 hardware) players used. I have a support request in to MediaChance - received the initial try this that the other thing reply, will see if the added details get a better response. Maybe a audio track will work better - which sounds like what you use.

Alas, DVD-Lab Pro picked the wrong place (I think) to turn off the AL - it's at compile time rather than at project setup/preference time. So while you're creating and debugging the project it's with the AL on (which affects the numbering of the PGCs) but then compiling with the AL off changes the numbering - at least that's my initial experiment results. Is confusing and error prone so far to me.

Thank you for clarifying what the issue with DAC is on windows - I was wondering what the problem was with newer versions of Windows, would DAC fail to launch, crash with missing libraries, or what? Nice to find out what the story is.

Only just spotted this thread, as we have been kinda very busy lately (hence the slowdown in activity lately)
Our authoring systems are a combination of tools, depending on exactly what we need to get done so here goes:

DVD-Video discs:
Sonic Scenarist SD, with the DTS MAS series encoder & the SurCode AC3 encoder (when used) on a Windows 7 64-bit system (Scenarist SD is a 32-bit application though)

DVD-Audio/Video discs:
Video_TS is done with either Scenarist SD or Media Chance Labs DVD-Lab Pro 2 (both on Windows 7 64-bit systems) depending on the content.
To explain.
Scenarist cannot create a slideshow with song markers that can be addressed. This is because it creates the separate images at the wrong level (VOBU instead of CELL) so whilst I can set up a timed slideshow to a high res stereo stream, you would not be able to access individual tracks. If I have to use a slideshow then I use DVD-Lab Pro, as this allows me to create an "Audio-Only" stream - essentially an I-Frame slideshow with addressable chapter marks but created at Cell level for the images. DVD-Lab Pro also allows you to turn off the abstraction layer at compile time, which is essential.
Both these tools have their problems, quirks & peculiarities though, such as DVD-Lab Pro is not happy using .cpt form of DTS. It will import it, but if you have to recompile it will not actually muultiplex the DTS stream - even though it is listed in the "success report" it is not actually there in the VTS multiplex. You have to relink it every compile yet if .dts is used (from the DTS-Pro series encoder) all is well. Go Figure!
All Audio_TS are done in Sonic DVD-Audio Creator version 3.0 (12) on an old XP/32 system as it simply does not work on anything later. I keep meaning to try and make it work in W7 but the problem is the way XML handling has been changed by MS, and it was the very nature of DAC using the XML files that made it so stable. You never work with the assets directly, but XML files instead. The downside is that you cannot simulate a build, and must compile & burn to test. MLP encoding is done with SurCode.

 

[schultz1010]

Wow - thanks for all the great info!

Hmm, interesting you say the hardest part is the Video_TS. Yes, the DVD-V toolset's limited if one wants to make a spec compliant DVD-A disc (and yes, I've read all/most of your posting on that topic ) but so far working w/o the AL hasn't been as bad as I thought it would be - biggest problem so far is an apparent bug in DVD-Lab Pro2 with multi-cell menus.

So far the hardest part of a DVD-A is the Audio_TS - it'd be really really nice to create what Chrome called "Active Menus" where you can navigate the lyrics, menus without perturbing the audio playback - trackpoints would be needed for seamless playback and as you've mentioned eons ago menus and trackpoints don't play nice together. The hope was the "educational" version of DAC would run on Windows 7 or 8 - might have given it a go as intuiting the use/operation :smack:

To me, and I suspect to others that are on the QQ forums, the attraction of DVD-A is that it's possible to create multi-channel/surround media (to some extent) ourselves - unlike the SACD format (fascinating tale there - but this isn't the place/time for it). So we continue scraping by finding bits/pieces in out of the way places on the net

Thanks for your reply and insight!

Sonic documentation is indeed very difficult to find.
It also doesn't help matters that the, hem "educational version" available is a very old one (3.0.5) and moreover is quite different in usage compared to the build I use (3.0 (11) and 3.0 (12) ) that any documentation from my installation will not help. My version uses a combined "COMMAND EDIT" applet (DVD-Audio Creator is actually a series of 6 or 7 different tools, depending on your version) whereas the "other" version uses separate COMMAND EDIT & AUTHOR tools - one is what you use to map the disc content, the other to actually set all the commands in buttons & on menu pre-post areas. Mine does all this in one go.

You are correct in what you say - that version is indeed near command line but with a small GUI element. You do need to know the way the format is structured to be able to build a disc, but once you get to grips with it it is actually faster than DiscWelder to create a very basic no frills disc in Sonic DAC. You also must know the DVD-A heirarchy if making a complex title in Chrome, otherwise certain things on menus will be impossible and you will not understand why.

All this said, the hardest part to create is actually the Video_TS you will need as you cannot use an Abstraction Layer tool to do this or you will get a spec fail on import to DAC. AL tools always make extensive use of dummy configurations to make their discs, and this will not work with DVD-A use as there are some pretty heavy restrictions on VTS titles to import them legally.
Best tools? DVD Creator on the Mac, OS9. Unavailable for years though. Ditto Spruce Maestro (this did create spec compliant Video_TS, but when Apple bought it & turned it into DVDSP they killed all that).
DVD-Lab Pro is probably the best tool to make these as long as you know how to use it without the AL as it is one very flexible tool indeed. It also has full scripting support, and you can write all as VM commands manually instead of having to use the abstraction layer generated code via drag & drop. Also invaluable is the PDF series "The Unofficial DVD Specifications" as it details all the VM commands & explains their usage & syntax.

The hard yards are all in the asset preparation & understanding the limitations of the format - and the workarounds.
It will be a crying shame if DVD-A/V dies, as done right it is still THE most cost effective way to release surround. Blu-ray allows more content but at a hefty price point.

 

[neil wilkes]

For the VIDEO_TS I'm having a bit of a problem - DVD Studio Pro's useless (AL issues aside there are other things DVDSP can't do). I am evaluating DVD-LabPro - creating a Menu with multiple cells and an audio file per cell is supposed to work (according to the manual) but the resulting VIDEO_TS directory has bombed in all 7 (5 software and 2 hardware) players used. I have a support request in to MediaChance - received the initial try this that the other thing reply, will see if the added details get a better response. Maybe a audio track will work better - which sounds like what you use.

Alas, DVD-Lab Pro picked the wrong place (I think) to turn off the AL - it's at compile time rather than at project setup/preference time. So while you're creating and debugging the project it's with the AL on (which affects the numbering of the PGCs) but then compiling with the AL off changes the numbering - at least that's my initial experiment results. Is confusing and error prone so far to me.

Thank you for clarifying what the issue with DAC is on windows - I was wondering what the problem was with newer versions of Windows, would DAC fail to launch, crash with missing libraries, or what? Nice to find out what the story is.

Okey Dokey.
DLP issues first.
Using a menu with multiple cells would definitely work, but you are limited to a total of 1Gb in menu space, across both Video Manager and Video Title Set menus. SO no real solution.
Run up an audio track - and it's timecode (despite what it infers when you add chapters to get song breaks) is 29.97 non drop frame. Anything else & you run into indexing problems later, with song markers not being where you thought you put them. You could also use a slideshow - but it's a bugger to adjust and is only the nearest second in accuracy.
Still Images. For menus etc, design & edit at 854x480 square pixel (there is a Photoshop preset for square pixel NTSC Widescreen). Create all screens manually - do *not* use the editing software or it will all go awry when you turn off the AL later (more on this later) and remember your images must obey the following rules:
Background - full colour, save as BMP
Button overlay - 2-bit indexed, so 3 colours maximum plus white background. NO MORE. In photoshop, simply index the image for your button layer, and set the colours to the usual subpicture colours.
Text - use whatever you like, but do not use text for buttons or it will look grim.
Once background image is ready, save it as a bitmap (BMP) and once you have all screens done, set up an action in Photpshop to do the following:
Resize Image 854x480 to 720x480 (use the algorithm Bicubic, best for reduction)
Save.
The image is now anamorphic and when compiled will be the correct shape.
For button images, design your buttons and place onscreen in menu, make sure they are black (it's easier) and then save just the buttons with a white background. Index this, and check it is pure black, 0,0,0.
Save as a TIF image and personally I use the suffix menuname_HL. With DLP you do not need a separate letterbox version (you certainly do with Sonic DAC) or a button hotspot image either.
In DLP, set your audio track up, add your audio (PCM or AC3 as stream 1, DTS must not be stream 1 or you have an out of spec disc) and then set up your markers in 29.97 NDF.
Double-click the first "track"'s black background in the timeline. From the drop-down list, go to menu, external S-Picture, import external background. Browse to your BMP image & load this.
Close the menu editor, move to the next cell in the playlist, right click & remove background (it adds the same image to the end of the playlist) and now select your second track image, as above.

For actual menus, the process is similar but you need to add the overlay after importing your external background.
Do this by again going to menu/external S-Picture/Load external sub picture. This done, you need to switch on the subpicture (there should be a button in the menu editor for this) and draw a button hotspot around the button image(s) - repeat until all buttons have a hotspot, and close the subpicture. You can now extend the hotspots as you will for mouse use as well. Just do not overlap anything and the mousewheel will zoom the menu editor too (Scenarist cannot do this - seriously!!).
There are various tools to control how the menu looks, but you can always simulate your menu without compiling.

The AL.
The AL effectively creates a stack of dummy code, making drag & drop authoring impossible because it just will not work properly when you turn it off as all objects created by the AL affect numbering.
To debug a Video_TS before going to DAC, grab yourself PGCEdit. Be VERY careful here though.
Turning the AL off basically means you need to provide just about all the code except for simple button links (and even then.......only actual tracks, not menus)

If you could tell me what your basic template needs to be, I will make one for you that can then be edited as necessary. Trying to explain the VM commands is impossible in a forum unless we attack it piece meal, but whatever works best for you.
You will need to define menu and playlist pre & post commands using the VM Script editor.
It's also best to set button commands this way as well - use the "custom/VM Command" method. One way you can find out what the AL adds in any circumstance is to use the connections window - the AL puts it's commands in a different place to custom ones, and custom ones are what will be used if they exist (this is how we beat the AL at it's own game).

 

[schultz1010]

Hi --

Didn't intend for you to spend all day and night typing

Audio Menu Cells (as DLP calls them) are supposed to work but so far do not. The first cell works fine, adding another cell w/ audio results in some players pausing, others drop audio, and one stops playing audio but the elapsed time starts moving 3x realtime - even an Oppo 103 can't play the beast.

This is what I tried to do

No errors, all goes well until playback of the VOBs.

Tried with 5 cells first and eventually dropped back to just 2 and the problem persisted. So while the manual says it can be done the output is corrupt/incorrect. Don't suppose you know anyone over at Mediachance?

The problems I'm having aren't from the AL or lack there of (it's just another assembly language and I've spent most of my career doing that - the language is the "how", what I'm doing now is learning the "what" - what needs to be done). Aspect ratios, time code, highlights, etc are old hat - it's the new tools that are the hill being climbed (really hard to resist the urge to translate new things into what a person already "knows" - too many eons with DVD Studio Pro 1,2,3,4 - fingers have memory it seems).

Oh, 1GB is more than enough. The goal is to produce a VIDEO_TS directory for placing on a DVD-A - most of the space on the disc is to be used for the high res audio in the AUDIO_TS directory. Entire VIDEO_TS won't be more than a couple hundred MB max. The DVD-A which I'm using as a guide (it's my "go to" DVD-A for demo and enjoy) is Linda Ronstadt's "What's New?". The entire AC3 version of the album is in the VMG and appears to be done as a multi cell audio "menu". The DTS mix is in VTS 2. a music video is VTS 3 and VTS 1 is a 3 or 4 second still w/o audio (a dummy VTS lacking pre commands for import into the AUDIO_TS side perhaps?)

Looked like a reasonable disc to use as a guide. Eventually I'd get the educational version of DAC (XP on order just in case) but for the time being Chrome will suffice for the AUDIO_TS while I get DLP figured out.

Thank you for the tips/hints on setting up an audio track in DLP - if I can't get the Audio Menu Cells working as advertised (and they would be perfect for albums that only need AC3 audio) I'll try your method of an audio track.

Thanks for the offer of a template - if I get really stuck I'll take you up on it. For now using DLP's generated "code" and looking at other DVDs I think I can puzzle out the simple menus I need. My stumbling block now is the apparent bug in DLP's Audio Menu Cell handling/muxing.

The hard part will, I think, be getting the AUDIO_TS "browsable menus" working (when I get that far ) For now I'm concentrating on the VIDEO_TS, the AUDIO will come in months ahead.

Your description sounds a lot like what other programs (such as DVD Studio Pro) called "buttons over video" as contrasted to the typical still menu. Did I interpret the writeup correctly?

AL:

Yep - I found it necessary to leave it on during "debug project", then go thru and edit the renumbered PGCs after using myDVDedit http://www.mydvdedit.com. Could use PGCedit I suppose but as soon as I can get off the windows system the better

I've noticed DLP has 3 sections to the VM code - your custom "pre" code done before the AL's, the AL code, and custom "post" code done after the AL's. Very flexible.

Thanks again for your time and effort! Lot of useful info to internalize.

Okey Dokey.
DLP issues first.
Using a menu with multiple cells would definitely work, but you are limited to a total of 1Gb in menu space, across both Video Manager and Video Title Set menus. SO no real solution.
Run up an audio track - and it's timecode (despite what it infers when you add chapters to get song breaks) is 29.97 non drop frame. Anything else & you run into indexing problems later, with song markers not being where you thought you put them. You could also use a slideshow - but it's a bugger to adjust and is only the nearest second in accuracy.
Still Images. For menus etc, design & edit at 854x480 square pixel (there is a Photoshop preset for square pixel NTSC Widescreen). Create all screens manually - do *not* use the editing software or it will all go awry when you turn off the AL later (more on this later) and remember your images must obey the following rules:
Background - full colour, save as BMP
Button overlay - 2-bit indexed, so 3 colours maximum plus white background. NO MORE. In photoshop, simply index the image for your button layer, and set the colours to the usual subpicture colours.
Text - use whatever you like, but do not use text for buttons or it will look grim.
Once background image is ready, save it as a bitmap (BMP) and once you have all screens done, set up an action in Photpshop to do the following:
Resize Image 854x480 to 720x480 (use the algorithm Bicubic, best for reduction)
Save.
The image is now anamorphic and when compiled will be the correct shape.
For button images, design your buttons and place onscreen in menu, make sure they are black (it's easier) and then save just the buttons with a white background. Index this, and check it is pure black, 0,0,0.
Save as a TIF image and personally I use the suffix menuname_HL. With DLP you do not need a separate letterbox version (you certainly do with Sonic DAC) or a button hotspot image either.
In DLP, set your audio track up, add your audio (PCM or AC3 as stream 1, DTS must not be stream 1 or you have an out of spec disc) and then set up your markers in 29.97 NDF.
Double-click the first "track"'s black background in the timeline. From the drop-down list, go to menu, external S-Picture, import external background. Browse to your BMP image & load this.
Close the menu editor, move to the next cell in the playlist, right click & remove background (it adds the same image to the end of the playlist) and now select your second track image, as above.

For actual menus, the process is similar but you need to add the overlay after importing your external background.
Do this by again going to menu/external S-Picture/Load external sub picture. This done, you need to switch on the subpicture (there should be a button in the menu editor for this) and draw a button hotspot around the button image(s) - repeat until all buttons have a hotspot, and close the subpicture. You can now extend the hotspots as you will for mouse use as well. Just do not overlap anything and the mousewheel will zoom the menu editor too (Scenarist cannot do this - seriously!!).
There are various tools to control how the menu looks, but you can always simulate your menu without compiling.

The AL.
The AL effectively creates a stack of dummy code, making drag & drop authoring impossible because it just will not work properly when you turn it off as all objects created by the AL affect numbering.
To debug a Video_TS before going to DAC, grab yourself PGCEdit. Be VERY careful here though.
Turning the AL off basically means you need to provide just about all the code except for simple button links (and even then.......only actual tracks, not menus)

If you could tell me what your basic template needs to be, I will make one for you that can then be edited as necessary. Trying to explain the VM commands is impossible in a forum unless we attack it piece meal, but whatever works best for you.
You will need to define menu and playlist pre & post commands using the VM Script editor.
It's also best to set button commands this way as well - use the "custom/VM Command" method. One way you can find out what the AL adds in any circumstance is to use the connections window - the AL puts it's commands in a different place to custom ones, and custom ones are what will be used if they exist (this is how we beat the AL at it's own game).

 

[schultz1010]

Is there a place in DLP to turn off the AL at the beginning of the project so that the stacks of dummy code do not get added and renumbering does not take place? The only place I have found, so far, to turn off the AL is after all the authoring has been done and the "Compile" step is about to be done:



by that point it's too late - if there's an early place (preference/option) to disable the AL I'm all ears/eyes :lookaround

Okey Dokey.
DLP issues first.
<snip>
The AL.
The AL effectively creates a stack of dummy code, making drag & drop authoring impossible because it just will not work properly when you turn it off as all objects created by the AL affect numbering.
To debug a Video_TS before going to DAC, grab yourself PGCEdit. Be VERY careful here though.
Turning the AL off basically means you need to provide just about all the code except for simple button links (and even then.......only actual tracks, not menus)

 

[schultz1010]

After doing a little more trial/error and zooming in I noticed that DLP is introducing a GAP between Audio Cells Using a 2 cell test case here's a zoomed in view:



See the grey gap between the two cells in the audio? That shouldn't be there - it causes major playback issues.

If the red handle is grabbed and nudged slightly back the gap goes away and playback is correct!



The problem appears to stem from DLP getting the time/size of the AC3 file slightly wrong. In DLP's imported asset window the file size/time is given as 2m55s. The file is actually 2:54:27 (or 2:54.9) according to DVDSP. But in the "initial" picture DLP shows the cell/audio length as being 2:55.07 (each second was measured as 112 pixels in Photoshop and the cell's about 8 pixels past 2:55) - thus the 'gap' is about .07 seconds. Nudging back to 2:55 gets rid of the gap and the audio plays correctly.

additional info 2015/08/24: seems the AC3 file header says 2:55:07 but if I import the file into DVDSP it says the amount of data present is actually 2:54:27. At this point I'm not sure if I'm battling a problem with Compressor3 or DLP or both. Could be that there are two "sizes" - one based on file length divided by the bitrate and another by actually reading the data from start to finish - perhaps the last block is rounded up causing the file size to be padded.

At first glance it appears DLP is getting the size of the audio asset wrong and creating a menu that's too long for the audio somehow.

If that were the only problem it's not a big issue to work around it but alas, no joy. Add a couple more cells and DLP gets extremely confused about audio file lengths (thinks a 4m46s AC3 file is 4m14s for purposes of gap removal - but the correct length if you leave the gap alone).

Grrrs - so close yet no cigar (yet). More experimentation needed. maybe start over with recreated assets and a new project to see if that makes a difference.

 

[elmj001]

Isn't there a simple way to create a dvd-a?

 

[schultz1010]

Isn't there a simple way to create a dvd-a?

Much of of the complexity/problems you see being discussed here is caused by the desire to create more complex/featurefull discs similar to the commercially produced ones - hybrid DVD-A discs with a DVD-VIDEO portion have special DVD authoring requirements and that's the cause of the discussion about DVD-Lab Pro.

Simple DVD-A discs that don't need MLP support can be produced with HD-Audio Solo Ultra from http://www.cirlinca.com/index.htm

The only other DVD-A tools (and that's what started this thread - the quest for more modern tools, of which there are none it turns out) are obsolete and found in the dimmer corners of the Internet - Discwelder Chrome and Sonic DVD Audio Creator - look in the other QQ forums and there is a *massive* amount of discussion of those (and Sonic Scenarist). many hours of reading await (if you haven't already). Lots of useful info and now there's even more thanks to Neil joining in on this thread.

oh, there is, if you're the adventurous type an open source tool kit http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/ but there's a lot of arcane command line work to getting it going (and my luck with the patched version of mkisofs was mixed) - the Cirlinca product looks more capabe and easier to use.

The ability to browse lyrics, playlists, slideshows,... while the audio is playing is the goal for a lot of folks and the only way so far to do that is the tools you see Neil talking about on this and the other QQ forums.

Shorter version: no, there's really no easy way :violin

 

[schultz1010]

After doing a little more trial/error and zooming in I noticed that DLP is introducing a GAP between Audio Cells Using a 2 cell test case here's a zoomed in view:

View attachment 20958

See the grey gap between the two cells in the audio? That shouldn't be there - it causes major playback issues.

If the red handle is grabbed and nudged slightly back the gap goes away and playback is correct!

View attachment 20959

The problem appears to stem from DLP getting the time/size of the AC3 file slightly wrong. In DLP's imported asset window the file size/time is given as 2m55s. The file is actually 2:54:27 (or 2:54.9) according to DVDSP. But in the "initial" picture DLP shows the cell/audio length as being 2:55.07 (each second was measured as 112 pixels in Photoshop and the cell's about 8 pixels past 2:55) - thus the 'gap' is about .07 seconds. Nudging back to 2:55 gets rid of the gap and the audio plays correctly.

At first glance it appears DLP is getting the size of the audio asset wrong and creating a menu that's too long for the audio somehow.

If that were the only problem it's not a big issue to work around it but alas, no joy. Add a couple more cells and DLP gets extremely confused about audio file lengths (thinks a 4m46s AC3 file is 4m14s for purposes of gap removal - but the correct length if you leave the gap alone).

Grrrs - so close yet no cigar (yet). More experimentation needed. maybe start over with recreated assets and a new project to see if that makes a difference.

To follow up my own post - I think I've finally figured out what is causing the problem with the missing ~32 seconds. Audio assets assigned to Audio Cells are limited to 254 seconds A test WAV file (just to get AC3 out of the picture) of 4m14s was created and used in a test - all works well, the "gap" shown above can be removed by adjusting the red handle. Create a file of 4m15s (255 seconds) and attempts to drag the handle back cause the confusion mentioned above - cell collapses back to an "inf" (infinite) cell.

So I'll have to abandon the thought of using Audio Cells (which is what some commercial DVDs appear to use) and give Neil's audio only 'track' method a go.

 

[schultz1010]

Ok - I've spent most of a couple days trying to make this work and I've either seriously misinterpreted the instructions Or DLP's Audio Tracks don't work as expected.

I added an Audio Track and it appears as "Audio Title 1" in the Movies section. SO far so good. Dragged an ~18min AC3 file to the "Audio 1" timeline.

Nothing about NDF or 29.97 has appeared as a choice or setting so far.

But this is where things start to diverge from the instructions. Adding Chapters is not working - if I right click on the timeline there is a popup offering "Chapters" as a choice - most of the choices are grey'd out with only "Add Manually" and "Delete All" being offered as selectable choices. Giving "Add Manually" a go it becomes apparent that 1 second resolution ("Audio Markers" [hh:mm:ss]) is the only choice. The Chapter point tools (move chapter point for example) are grey'd out. Oh for grins&giggles a few markers were added so as to continue on with the procedure.

Double click the black background, then Menu->External S-Picture->Load External Background and add a 720x480 BMP file. This works and produced a "menu" icon on the lower window margin but nothing's editable (none of the usual functions of the Menu editor are present/enabled). Even tried added an overlay (Menu->External S-Picture->Load External Sub" and nothing happens.

Seems adding a background to an Audio Track can get a title screen for the song but I haven't found how to turn that into an editable menu.

The instructions go on to say "close the menu editor, move to the next cell ..." . That's really confusing because there isn't another cell - if you're talking about the "Menu Cell" (enabled with the Motion & Audio Tracks button in the Menu view) it's not available (I tried Menu Cells earlier and it has other problems). I'm lost as to what's meant by "move to the next cell".

Playlist? Not sure what that's referring to - all that's present is a continuous single audio file with markers set at 1 sec resolution.

So far Audio Only tracks don't appear to offer anything over a slideshow - oh, maybe a little easier to set the markers. I'd really expected better than hh:mm:ss for the marker times. The hope was setting markers in the Audio Track would create cells that behaved like Menu Cells in a Menu.

Maybe the question should be redone - how does one have continuous (gapless) playback with a menu at the beginning of each song? Basically carve a track into arbitrary length'd cells (songs), assign a still to run the length of the cell and then put a few buttons on. Essentially "Menu Cells" (as discussed elsewhere) but in a video title. second limit on Low rate video and use buttons over video at each song's start? Pity there's a 254 second limit on Audio Cells (255 is "infinity" or they'd work for most discs.

Okey Dokey.
DLP issues first.
Using a menu with multiple cells would definitely work, but you are limited to a total of 1Gb in menu space, across both Video Manager and Video Title Set menus. SO no real solution.
Run up an audio track - and it's timecode (despite what it infers when you add chapters to get song breaks) is 29.97 non drop frame. Anything else & you run into indexing problems later, with song markers not being where you thought you put them. You could also use a slideshow - but it's a bugger to adjust and is only the nearest second in accuracy.

In DLP, set your audio track up, add your audio (PCM or AC3 as stream 1, DTS must not be stream 1 or you have an out of spec disc) and then set up your markers in 29.97 NDF.
Double-click the first "track"'s black background in the timeline. From the drop-down list, go to menu, external S-Picture, import external background. Browse to your BMP image & load this.
Close the menu editor, move to the next cell in the playlist, right click & remove background (it adds the same image to the end of the playlist) and now select your second track image, as above.

For actual menus, the process is similar but you need to add the overlay after importing your external background.
Do this by again going to menu/external S-Picture/Load external sub picture. This done, you need to switch on the subpicture (there should be a button in the menu editor for this) and draw a button hotspot around the button image(s) - repeat until all buttons have a hotspot, and close the subpicture. You can now extend the hotspots as you will for mouse use as well. Just do not overlap anything and the mousewheel will zoom the menu editor too (Scenarist cannot do this - seriously!!).
There are various tools to control how the menu looks, but you can always simulate your menu without compiling.

 

[neil wilkes]

your problem is essentially the layout here. You are trying to use multiple audio clips - running into tracks - in a menu, and this will not fly.

First essential rule of thumb is to never, ever use multiple audio clips in a single playlist/timeline.
AC3 and DTS use audio packets, and the packet length may not - and probably will not - match the lossless PCM packet length & a DTS one will again probably not match an AC3 one.
So - one single contiguous stream in any timeline is what we need to do here.
Second law of DVD is that in menus you can only have a maximum of 1Gb in total - that is all.

So what you need to do is structure the disc:
VMGM (Pink Menus)
These are control navigation screens in Video Manager system space. These will contain main menus etc.
VTSM (Blue Menus)
These are tied to a title set (VTS) and you cannot jump from one in VTSM space to another in a different VTSM space (say from VTS1 to VTS2) unless you go via the VMGM space to do it.
SO why not put all menus in VMGM? Because you cannot switch audio streams from a button in VMGM (forbidden) and also because the remote "menu" button needs somewhere to go, and that is always the root menu of the currently playing VTS.
I think we need to create a basic "how to" guide and maybe some templates with code examples.

Can you turn off the AL earlier?
Well, no - this is just not possible and if you think about it you will understand why.
Simply assume that no commands are given unless you write them manually using the "VM Command" option on a menu button.
The AL code will - I promise you - also come in useful if you need to know what a call is in a hurry - darg/drop it with the AL, and then copy the code to the custom VM commands editor (best to use the script editor here as well as it is easier to understand).

You'll need to set out the disc with each VTS consisting of contiguous streams - prepare all assets outside DLP, so if you need 4 AC3 tracks, create a single file set with all 4 songs and encode that.
Write down the marker points & use 29.97 Non Drop Frame timecode.
You will need a root menu for each VTS - this is usually the song list for that timeline/playlist.
You will need an AUDIO menu in any VTS that has multiple audio streams too.
Any content in a VTS must have the same audio streams, video resolution & frame rate.
You will need to supply title VM, First Play VM (both go in the PRE commands area) and all title end links (again, use the "connections" editor here and add these commands as custom post commands)

What version/build are you keyed for please? If I prepare you a template it will help greatly I think.

 

[schultz1010]

The problem with one contiguous stream in a timeline is that I haven't found a way to "carve/break" the timeline into cells. if Audio Cells in DLP worked properly/completely we wouldn't be having this conversation

DVDSP managed to seamlessly join multiple AC3 segments in a timeline (and not leave gaps like DLP does) but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

How do you set chapters/markers at better than 1 second resolution in a DLP audio only timeline? Trying to add "audio markers" only allows hh:mm:ss resolution.

Maybe it would be better if I described what I'm aiming for.

DO you have either DVD-Audio disc: Linda Ronstadt's "What's New" or Carly Simon's "No Secrets"? Both put the AC3 album in the VMG using seamless cells each with it's own menu. What's New puts the DTS track in VTS 2 (similar set of cells in a single PGC but each has it's own still menu). Both are very simple (Simon's disc very simple - it's all in the VMG with only a stub VTS to placate the video dvd specs) yet have the desired degree of interactivity. Sure look like multi-cell menus each with its own audio - DLP can do that but it leaves gaps in the audio track and has a 414 second "limit" if you try to nudge the cell handle.

The neat thing about stuffing the album into the VMG is you don't have to worry about Pre/Post commands - put a stub VTS 1 in and you're done for a simple album.

If you can point out how to do something like those VIDEO_TS directories using DLP I (and perhaps many others) would be extremely grateful.

Of course once I get that part figured out there'll be questions about the AUDIO_TS

I'm using the current downloadable DLP 2.52 (in evaluation mode - still have 21 or 22 days left but probably will need to get it because DVDSP is even less capable in some key areas). Thanks!

your problem is essentially the layout here. You are trying to use multiple audio clips - running into tracks - in a menu, and this will not fly.

First essential rule of thumb is to never, ever use multiple audio clips in a single playlist/timeline.
AC3 and DTS use audio packets, and the packet length may not - and probably will not - match the lossless PCM packet length & a DTS one will again probably not match an AC3 one.
So - one single contiguous stream in any timeline is what we need to do here.
Second law of DVD is that in menus you can only have a maximum of 1Gb in total - that is all.

So what you need to do is structure the disc:
VMGM (Pink Menus)
These are control navigation screens in Video Manager system space. These will contain main menus etc.
VTSM (Blue Menus)
These are tied to a title set (VTS) and you cannot jump from one in VTSM space to another in a different VTSM space (say from VTS1 to VTS2) unless you go via the VMGM space to do it.
SO why not put all menus in VMGM? Because you cannot switch audio streams from a button in VMGM (forbidden) and also because the remote "menu" button needs somewhere to go, and that is always the root menu of the currently playing VTS.
I think we need to create a basic "how to" guide and maybe some templates with code examples.

Can you turn off the AL earlier?
Well, no - this is just not possible and if you think about it you will understand why.
Simply assume that no commands are given unless you write them manually using the "VM Command" option on a menu button.
The AL code will - I promise you - also come in useful if you need to know what a call is in a hurry - darg/drop it with the AL, and then copy the code to the custom VM commands editor (best to use the script editor here as well as it is easier to understand).

You'll need to set out the disc with each VTS consisting of contiguous streams - prepare all assets outside DLP, so if you need 4 AC3 tracks, create a single file set with all 4 songs and encode that.
Write down the marker points & use 29.97 Non Drop Frame timecode.
You will need a root menu for each VTS - this is usually the song list for that timeline/playlist.
You will need an AUDIO menu in any VTS that has multiple audio streams too.
Any content in a VTS must have the same audio streams, video resolution & frame rate.
You will need to supply title VM, First Play VM (both go in the PRE commands area) and all title end links (again, use the "connections" editor here and add these commands as custom post commands)

What version/build are you keyed for please? If I prepare you a template it will help greatly I think.

 

[JonUrban]

Anyone remember making DVD-A's with Wavelab? I think it was Wavelab 5. There was a real bizarre way to make a DVD-A, but it did have a time line and you could easily add lyrics and stuff to the time line. I know that the later versions removed that capability, but if you could find Wavelab 5 that might be the answer. I think this was a Windows XP program though. It's been a while and I can't remember.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb05/articles/steinbergwavelab5.htm

 

[schultz1010]

No, I don't remember - but then I wasn't paying attention to multi-channel anything in 2005.

Ah I see you spotted the same SOS article I did in my searches. The DVD-A support apparently didn't end at 5 though - there's the Wavelab 6 manual at ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/WaveLab_6/Docs_English/WaveLab.pdf and it goes into detail about "montage" (and yes, a person is sick & tired of that word after a couple pages). Too bad a similar manual isn't available for Sonic's DAC XP wouldn't be a problem - I recently bought one of the last sealed retail XP-SP3 kits - they're getting scarce. Some, not sure about Wavelab 5/6, of Sternberg's software uses a dongle though as I recall.

neither 5 or 6 supported MLP.

strangely Apple's Logic supports a *limited* version of DVD-A https://support.apple.com/kb/PH13232?locale=en_US - stereo only and nothing fancy for menus, etc.

Anyone remember making DVD-A's with Wavelab? I think it was Wavelab 5. There was a real bizarre way to make a DVD-A, but it did have a time line and you could easily add lyrics and stuff to the time line. I know that the later versions removed that capability, but if you could find Wavelab 5 that might be the answer. I think this was a Windows XP program though. It's been a while and I can't remember.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb05/articles/steinbergwavelab5.htm

 

[JonUrban]

Wavelab 5 - no dongle
Wavelab 6 and higher - dongle

 

[neil wilkes]

The scenario you describe may not be possible with DLP.
It's certainly one I have never attempted, because we have never yet done a Video_TS with just AC3 5.1 with downmixes as the product - I do not believe AC3 has any place on a music DVD.
I'll have a look though, and see what can be done.

Suspect you are not reading this correctly though - I have the Carly Simon disc so will pull it apart & see.
What the author of those discs used was Sonic DVD Creator on the Mac, and this did slideshows with addressable cells, and suspect this is how it was done with a single frame image.
I think this because when you import the Video_TS into DAC, you will get the option to add XML files (VTS_PTT) only from the Video_TS TT - so it simply won't work in just menus as you could not set the hooks into the menus - linked Video_TS must access playlists, as all menus are unreadable by the Audio Manager.

 

[keenly]

I am using HD Solo Ultra right now.

 

[schultz1010]

Hmmm, interesting - I'd hoped you knew the magic of emulating the "active menu" feature in the VIDEO_TS side. True, it's not as general/full-featured as on the AUDIO_TS side but it's still nice to have the navigation buttons present as each menu/still-image appears.

Doesn't have anything to do with the choice of audio codec - the same thing is done with the DTS 5.1 from the Ronstadt "What's New?" album. In VTS 2 of that album there's a "menu" per song with buttons (the "poor man's active menu" feature). AND that VTS is accessible from the DVD-A (AUDIO_TS) side!

The goal is to create a disc that when I give it to a friend or brother will play in their DVD-Video only environment and AC3 5.1 is a good choice for that. Maybe a DTS track but it'd be more for my benefit (and for that I have an Oppo that can play the high res AUDIO_TS content). The majority of the space on the disc is for the AUDIO_TS content.

There's no video content except perhaps a stub/splashscreen. Nothing, except that stub, would be imported into the AUDIO_TS side. when the disc is put into a DVD-Audio player the fact that the video manager/menus can't be accessed is fine - those are for the DVD-V side only.

Most of the need for DLP is to create a video_ts that won't trigger the "no pre commands allowed" or "too many post commands" - messages from the DVD-A authoring programs and allow the VIDEO_TS directory to be placed on the disc. maybe use/link in the splash screen or album cover video (as the No Secrets disc does).

The Carly Simon disc's VIDEO_TS is small isn't it? Most of the space is, as befits a DVD-A, in the AUDIO_TS.

And the"WHAT's NEW?" disc puts the 5.1 and stereo AC3 files both in the VMG with the DTS 5.1 in VTS 2 and a music video in VTS 3 (VTS 1 is a 3 or 4 second album cover video) and the entire VIDEO_TS is less than 1GB:

/Volumes/WHATS_NEW//VIDEO_TS:
total 900638
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 38912 Aug 16 2002 VIDEO_TS.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 38912 Aug 16 2002 VIDEO_TS.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 269352960 Aug 16 2002 VIDEO_TS.VOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 12288 Aug 16 2002 VTS_01_0.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 12288 Aug 16 2002 VTS_01_0.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 1069056 Aug 16 2002 VTS_01_1.VOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 26624 Aug 16 2002 VTS_02_0.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 26624 Aug 16 2002 VTS_02_0.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 444682240 Aug 16 2002 VTS_02_1.VOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 12288 Aug 16 2002 VTS_03_0.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 12288 Aug 16 2002 VTS_03_0.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 206968832 Aug 16 2002 VTS_03_1.VOB

Most of the space on the disc is for the AUDIO_TS which has the 96K 5.1 and the 192K stereo mixes - that's about 3GB:

/Volumes/WHATS_NEW//AUDIO_TS:
total 3097162
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 6144 Aug 16 2002 ATS_01_0.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 6144 Aug 16 2002 ATS_01_0.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 1073709056 Aug 16 2002 ATS_01_1.AOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 1073709056 Aug 16 2002 ATS_01_2.AOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 1011222528 Aug 16 2002 ATS_01_3.AOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 4096 Aug 16 2002 ATS_02_0.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 4096 Aug 16 2002 ATS_02_0.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 131072 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_PP.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 4096 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_SV.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 4096 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_SV.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 4063232 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_SV.VOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 8192 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_TS.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 8192 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_TS.IFO
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 2322432 Aug 16 2002 AUDIO_TS.VOB
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 3145728 Aug 16 2002 DVDAUDIO.BUP
-r-xr-xr-x 1 sms staff 3145728 Aug 16 2002 DVDAUDIO.MKB

It's too bad the look&feel of the 2002 era discs isn't, as you mention, possible as far as you can see with DLP. IF it's not menus then slideshow stills with buttons (but isn't that a menu at that point?). Actually DLP could do it with Menu Cells IF it didn't leave a gap between cells in the audio OR if i it didn't treat audio longer than 414 seconds as an infinite cell time (dragging the cell length back to remove the gap would work - but audio longer than 254s turns into inf when adjusted).

See postings # 25, 27 and 30. And it's not AC3 related - stereo WAV/LPCM files behave the SAME.

Hmmm, another Sonic product eh? DVD Creator on the Mac rings a bell - I think that was for OS 8 and later OS 9 and support for that is long gone from OS X - heck, even PPC support went away several versions of the OS ago

As much fun the journey's been so far it may be necessary to settle for a simpler less interactive VIDEO_TS side and leave the 'nicer' navigation for the AUDIO_TS side.

Addressable cells sounds like such a useful feature - and apparently was widely used at one point in time - too bad it's so rare now.

Thanks for the insight - and good luck exploring No Secrets - let us know how it was done and if we can do a similar thing today t:music

The scenario you describe may not be possible with DLP.
It's certainly one I have never attempted, because we have never yet done a Video_TS with just AC3 5.1 with downmixes as the product - I do not believe AC3 has any place on a music DVD.
I'll have a look though, and see what can be done.

Suspect you are not reading this correctly though - I have the Carly Simon disc so will pull it apart & see.
What the author of those discs used was Sonic DVD Creator on the Mac, and this did slideshows with addressable cells, and suspect this is how it was done with a single frame image.
I think this because when you import the Video_TS into DAC, you will get the option to add XML files (VTS_PTT) only from the Video_TS TT - so it simply won't work in just menus as you could not set the hooks into the menus - linked Video_TS must access playlists, as all menus are unreadable by the Audio Manager.

 

[neil wilkes]

That "Menu" is a thing called "Buttons Over Video", and it is only possible in 2 programs - Sonic DVD Creator (Mac only, OS-9, required hardware box to preview output) and Scenarist.
DLP can do this but not over an audio only title.
However, you can fake it.........
BTW - if the Video_TS content is accessible in the Audio Manager, and the DVDA spec says that all content in the Video_TS shall be pointed from the Audio_TS (although it does not say it must be user selectable) and the problem right there is that unless you have a VTS title, there is no VTS.XML or VTS_PTT.XML file generated for DAC to get hold of, and this will trigger a spec fail. Therefore the Carly Simon must be a slideshow based title, plus I know the guy who authored it, and he used Creator for Video_TS and MEI DAC (not the Sonic version but the MEI one) for Audio_TS.

Re the example disc in question.
If that has DTS bare ass naked in it's own VTS then the disc is out of spec, as the specs clearly state that DTS shall not be the sole stream or the primary stream in any title as it is an optionally supported codec, not a mandatory one - and I would be surprised if the AC3 were not actually in the same VTS as stream 0, with the DTS as stream 1. I do know of OOS Video_TS (The Bjork Surrounded box set of DualDiscs are all DTS alone) but none in a DVD-Audio disc as it would fail the spec check on import.

Anyway, to your issue.
For proper functionality as well as player compatibility please forget all about using audio in menu cells to do this. It ain't gonna work.
First up, you have an absolute limitation of 1Gb.
Secondly, you cannot address such a disc in AMG and it will be out of spec.
Thirdly, even if you could pull it off in spec (and you cannot) you will have serious playability problems. That's the hardest thing to get right, and simple discs are the only way to go.
Honestly.

The best approach is to do it one of 2 ways (and if space is an issue here, then one way is out from the start).
1 - Fake it.
Create an Audio Only title and for each still image in the timeline, use a song tracklist screen with the currently playing track highlighted in a different colour, or with a marker of some sort.
The remote control numbered buttons will access tracks directly, FF/RW will work on most players (but you will have to enable it in UserOps), Next/Previous will work.
2 - use a low bitrate M2V file and use "buttons over video".

You have no choice unless you are prepared to risk spec issues, playability issues & all manner of import issues and furthermore can obtain a mac and a copy of DVD Creator to run on it complete with the decoder video breakout box. No other application can do this (active navigation over slideshows) as Scenarist does it at the wrong level with Slideshows so even though you can have multiple images you cannot set a chapter marker at these images - it's one or all the same - and DVD-Lab Pro cannot create BOV over an Audio-Only title, only a movie title so that brings us back to low bitrate M2V files, and I need to know if space is an issue here for you, or just the way you had envisaged this all working.

Suggest the following layout (assuming you have just AC3/DTS surround and a stereo programme)
If you want to lose the AC3, you get a much simpler disc to create (single VTS) but at the cost of widespread compatibility.
Anyway, I would start it off something like this:

VMGM Menus:
Splash Screen (label logo, whatever)
Main Menu
Empty "Dummy" Menu for VTS 2 access

VTS1 - Surround Mixes
One Audio-Only title
One Root Menu
One Audio Menu (set this menu type in UserOps)

VTS2 - Stereo
One Audio-Only title
One Root Menu

Create your artwork, prepare single contiguous streams for each audio option and note the timecode for song breaks in 29.97 Non Drop timecode as HH:MM:SS:FF
Encode your AC3 and DTS streams, make sure you use DTS Padded with DLP or you may get issues as it will accept .cpt but is not happy about it.
Would a template help?
I could create the basic layout and structure, name everything & create button hotspots that you could later modify as needed and add the core code needed to make the disc work without triggering spec violations on import to DAC. BTW, if you ever get a spec import error of "VTSM Not permitted" you can ignore this & continue import safely as this restriction was lifted but I do not know what book revision your DAC is running.........

I will build this in version 2.31-2.5 PS Merge (I'll check for the build you mention but am not sure I am on this one, although the template should function well enough on a later version of the program) and it would also be a good idea to start a little notebook for various bits of code. You will need to know this, but a lot of it can be discovered by using the abstraction layer, seeing what code it write & then reusing this in the custom VM Command script editor. Things may get geeky, and a notebook will help you out - I know it works for me. Useful stuff like a pre/post trap to make sure a splash screen only plays once - pressing title or top menu on a remote effectively invokes the "First Play" option, and that is our splash screen or label logo or piracy warning or whatnot so we do this:
Right-Click the object in the Connections window (I have this one floating on it's own monitor) and open the "Edit VM Commands" area & add this:
If (GPRM0=1), LinkPGCN 2
GPRM0 = 1
Then in the Post Commands add this
LinkPGCN 2
We have tried this using "LinkTailPGC" in place of specifically naming the screen but a lot of soft players do not understand this - WinDVD for one so it's pointless even though spec legal.
In the VMGM and VTSM sections, the menu PGC numbers are matched to their order in the list so the first VMGM menu number is pgc 1, then pgc 2 etc. Same applies in VTSM.
(PGC 1 = first menu, but in code it is pgcn 1 etc)

Anyway - if a template like this will help....let me know?