schultz1010
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 78
Wow - cool that you know the fellow who did the Carly Simon disc. Bummer that he used tools that are no longer available (although I did see on eBay a G3 MAC with OS 9 and Sonic DVD Creator and breakout box for the monitor - that's getting far too extreme for me.
So those 10 cells in the Carly Simon's disc PGC 5 are a slide show with "Playlist" "<" Track ">" buttons on each slide? Is that a correct interpretation of what you wrote?
Pity that's not doable in 2015.
Yes, it appears that the Simon (and Ronstadt) DVD-A discs use a slide show setup. BUT - a still image with buttons/navigation is to paraphrase a line from Shakespeare "a menu by any other name".
An audio track in DLP has the same limitation as a slide how - 1 second resolution, there is no NDF 29.97 frame accurate addressing. Right click on an audio only track and you'll see the "Chapter -> Add Manually" only offers hh:mm:ss. NO ':ff'
If I read and understand your second paragraph - the DVDA spec says that all content shall be pointed form the AUDIO_TS ... - that means that any VTS(s) have to be linked into the Audio side AND you have to have 1 VTS (according to the DVD-V specs). Fair enough. Create a VTS 1 as a dummy splash screen, import/link that into the Audio Manager and then put the AC3 mix into the VMG. That's what the Carly Simon disc does. The VMG's only seen by the DVD-Video player, the VTS that's present goes into the AMG and everyone's happy.
Summary, to see if I've understood things correctly so far: only the VTSs that are linked in of which there has to be at least 1(and all of them apparently from what you say have to be "imported" to/by the AMG. A DVD-A can still be in spec even if the VIDEO_TS has a VMG present ( which has audio and video).
On the What's New DVD-A the Oppo103 shows 4 "titles" and one of those is the VTS 2 from the DVD-V side - it's the DTS title. That title (group?) is NOT mentioned anywhere in the DVD-A menus but is selectable using the Oppo remote control. Plays fine.
The 1GB limit is not a problem - did you see post #39? The entire Video_TS including a music video is less than 900MB. And on the Simon disc the entire VIDEO_TS.VOB is only 130MB!
The goal isn't to fill up the VIDEO_TS like for a motion picture release - most of the space goes into (as in #39) the Audio_TS. Couple hundred meg's all that is needed in the Video_TS side.
No, the What's New disc has an AC3 audio present in the VTS 2 but it looks like it's set to be the 2nd stream.
Got a new DVD-A today that does the VIDEO_TS in an interesting way - Diana Krall's "Love Scenes" puts up a still image with 13 buttons and then moves the highlighted button as the songs change. Haven't picked it apart yet though.
Ah, but that's a 2003 release - built back "the good ol' days"
On to your reply to my issue (and are we having fun yet? )...
Going to have to forget about Audio cells - they would work and do what I want (most of the time) but it appears DLP uses one time scale for the generated still and another for the audio length resulting in a gap. Sigh.
1GB is *more* than enough and if I read the DVD-V specs right that's a per VTS limit, each VTS could have 1GB worth of "menus". But since the goal was to leave 2 or 3GB for Audio_TS having a limit of 1GB or so for Video_TS is fine/OK.
The AMG has never been able to address the VMG so that's not as a problem - witness the Simon DVD-A - it plays fine in a Video player and also in a DVD-A player.
1. Fake it - well, audio only title only has the 1 second resolution - that'd work most of the time, just occasionally there are continuous movements or songs run together that 1s isn't fine enough.
and Bummer from the looks of it - you can't add BOV to an audio only track. why not? seems DLP is a half done program at times.
2. low rate M2V file is probably going to have to be the method used. I can whip up a video track out of still in Final Cut Pro - each still can be specified to the frame level timing wise. Encode to a low rate (not sure if I want I frame only which raises the bitrate a *LOT* or a very small GOP size for more accurate chapter placement - can try both, the mpeg encoder I have is very good/flexible).
Will use up a lot of space even at 1500 or so MB. Hmmm, can use half D1 frame size to save space.
Problem as I understand it is that chapters/markers can only be placed at I frames and too many of those raises the bit rate.
BOV seemed to be a bit more work to set up - subtitle streams, etc - but if that's what will work I'll give it a try.
3. I agree 100% that simple is the say to go - and the Carly Simon and Ronstadt discs appeared to be a Simple (with a cap S) as onecould get - that's why I thought it would be a good example to follow for the VIDEO_TS part (eventually the AUDIO_TS will be addressed but I shudder at that - the video part was supposed to be the easiest).
since what was thought to be simple is not simple and no longer possible maybe #4 should be added to the list.
4. the other choice would be to just create a top level menu, select a chapter and let it play - just like the movies - and skip updating the screen.
OR - just thought of an alternate method using a menu per song - wouldn't be gapless but here's what one fellow wrote up for an AUDIO ONLY DVD in DLP: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/228982-How-to-create-an-Audio-Only-DVD-in-DVDLab-Pro-(IMPROVED)
ICK.
I don't think space is a problem - haven't gotten far enough along what with all the bumps in the road to get this far. Not planning on DTS at the moment since the folks I'd be sharing the efforts with wouldn't know what to do with it or if I'm playing the AC3 version it's because I'm away from the DVD-A player.
It seems what appears simple was perhaps so at the time, 13 or 14 years ago, but is not possible today
A template would be graciously accepted. If there's a way to post it to the forum that'd be great.
It's not how I envisioned things working - thought DLP could fashion stills into cells" and away things would go and we wouldn't be having such a scintillating conversation.
oh yeah, first play / do once stuff once logic was already in place
thanks for all the time / effort (and patience)!
So those 10 cells in the Carly Simon's disc PGC 5 are a slide show with "Playlist" "<" Track ">" buttons on each slide? Is that a correct interpretation of what you wrote?
Pity that's not doable in 2015.
Yes, it appears that the Simon (and Ronstadt) DVD-A discs use a slide show setup. BUT - a still image with buttons/navigation is to paraphrase a line from Shakespeare "a menu by any other name".
An audio track in DLP has the same limitation as a slide how - 1 second resolution, there is no NDF 29.97 frame accurate addressing. Right click on an audio only track and you'll see the "Chapter -> Add Manually" only offers hh:mm:ss. NO ':ff'
If I read and understand your second paragraph - the DVDA spec says that all content shall be pointed form the AUDIO_TS ... - that means that any VTS(s) have to be linked into the Audio side AND you have to have 1 VTS (according to the DVD-V specs). Fair enough. Create a VTS 1 as a dummy splash screen, import/link that into the Audio Manager and then put the AC3 mix into the VMG. That's what the Carly Simon disc does. The VMG's only seen by the DVD-Video player, the VTS that's present goes into the AMG and everyone's happy.
Summary, to see if I've understood things correctly so far: only the VTSs that are linked in of which there has to be at least 1(and all of them apparently from what you say have to be "imported" to/by the AMG. A DVD-A can still be in spec even if the VIDEO_TS has a VMG present ( which has audio and video).
On the What's New DVD-A the Oppo103 shows 4 "titles" and one of those is the VTS 2 from the DVD-V side - it's the DTS title. That title (group?) is NOT mentioned anywhere in the DVD-A menus but is selectable using the Oppo remote control. Plays fine.
The 1GB limit is not a problem - did you see post #39? The entire Video_TS including a music video is less than 900MB. And on the Simon disc the entire VIDEO_TS.VOB is only 130MB!
The goal isn't to fill up the VIDEO_TS like for a motion picture release - most of the space goes into (as in #39) the Audio_TS. Couple hundred meg's all that is needed in the Video_TS side.
No, the What's New disc has an AC3 audio present in the VTS 2 but it looks like it's set to be the 2nd stream.
Got a new DVD-A today that does the VIDEO_TS in an interesting way - Diana Krall's "Love Scenes" puts up a still image with 13 buttons and then moves the highlighted button as the songs change. Haven't picked it apart yet though.
Ah, but that's a 2003 release - built back "the good ol' days"
On to your reply to my issue (and are we having fun yet? )...
Going to have to forget about Audio cells - they would work and do what I want (most of the time) but it appears DLP uses one time scale for the generated still and another for the audio length resulting in a gap. Sigh.
1GB is *more* than enough and if I read the DVD-V specs right that's a per VTS limit, each VTS could have 1GB worth of "menus". But since the goal was to leave 2 or 3GB for Audio_TS having a limit of 1GB or so for Video_TS is fine/OK.
The AMG has never been able to address the VMG so that's not as a problem - witness the Simon DVD-A - it plays fine in a Video player and also in a DVD-A player.
1. Fake it - well, audio only title only has the 1 second resolution - that'd work most of the time, just occasionally there are continuous movements or songs run together that 1s isn't fine enough.
and Bummer from the looks of it - you can't add BOV to an audio only track. why not? seems DLP is a half done program at times.
2. low rate M2V file is probably going to have to be the method used. I can whip up a video track out of still in Final Cut Pro - each still can be specified to the frame level timing wise. Encode to a low rate (not sure if I want I frame only which raises the bitrate a *LOT* or a very small GOP size for more accurate chapter placement - can try both, the mpeg encoder I have is very good/flexible).
Will use up a lot of space even at 1500 or so MB. Hmmm, can use half D1 frame size to save space.
Problem as I understand it is that chapters/markers can only be placed at I frames and too many of those raises the bit rate.
BOV seemed to be a bit more work to set up - subtitle streams, etc - but if that's what will work I'll give it a try.
3. I agree 100% that simple is the say to go - and the Carly Simon and Ronstadt discs appeared to be a Simple (with a cap S) as onecould get - that's why I thought it would be a good example to follow for the VIDEO_TS part (eventually the AUDIO_TS will be addressed but I shudder at that - the video part was supposed to be the easiest).
since what was thought to be simple is not simple and no longer possible maybe #4 should be added to the list.
4. the other choice would be to just create a top level menu, select a chapter and let it play - just like the movies - and skip updating the screen.
OR - just thought of an alternate method using a menu per song - wouldn't be gapless but here's what one fellow wrote up for an AUDIO ONLY DVD in DLP: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/228982-How-to-create-an-Audio-Only-DVD-in-DVDLab-Pro-(IMPROVED)
ICK.
I don't think space is a problem - haven't gotten far enough along what with all the bumps in the road to get this far. Not planning on DTS at the moment since the folks I'd be sharing the efforts with wouldn't know what to do with it or if I'm playing the AC3 version it's because I'm away from the DVD-A player.
It seems what appears simple was perhaps so at the time, 13 or 14 years ago, but is not possible today
A template would be graciously accepted. If there's a way to post it to the forum that'd be great.
It's not how I envisioned things working - thought DLP could fashion stills into cells" and away things would go and we wouldn't be having such a scintillating conversation.
oh yeah, first play / do once stuff once logic was already in place
thanks for all the time / effort (and patience)!
That "Menu" is a thing called "Buttons Over Video", and it is only possible in 2 programs - Sonic DVD Creator (Mac only, OS-9, required hardware box to preview output) and Scenarist.
DLP can do this but not over an audio only title.
However, you can fake it.........
BTW - if the Video_TS content is accessible in the Audio Manager, and the DVDA spec says that all content in the Video_TS shall be pointed from the Audio_TS (although it does not say it must be user selectable) and the problem right there is that unless you have a VTS title, there is no VTS.XML or VTS_PTT.XML file generated for DAC to get hold of, and this will trigger a spec fail. Therefore the Carly Simon must be a slideshow based title, plus I know the guy who authored it, and he used Creator for Video_TS and MEI DAC (not the Sonic version but the MEI one) for Audio_TS.
Re the example disc in question.
If that has DTS bare ass naked in it's own VTS then the disc is out of spec, as the specs clearly state that DTS shall not be the sole stream or the primary stream in any title as it is an optionally supported codec, not a mandatory one - and I would be surprised if the AC3 were not actually in the same VTS as stream 0, with the DTS as stream 1. I do know of OOS Video_TS (The Bjork Surrounded box set of DualDiscs are all DTS alone) but none in a DVD-Audio disc as it would fail the spec check on import.
Anyway, to your issue.
For proper functionality as well as player compatibility please forget all about using audio in menu cells to do this. It ain't gonna work.
First up, you have an absolute limitation of 1Gb.
Secondly, you cannot address such a disc in AMG and it will be out of spec.
Thirdly, even if you could pull it off in spec (and you cannot) you will have serious playability problems. That's the hardest thing to get right, and simple discs are the only way to go.
Honestly.
The best approach is to do it one of 2 ways (and if space is an issue here, then one way is out from the start).
1 - Fake it.
Create an Audio Only title and for each still image in the timeline, use a song tracklist screen with the currently playing track highlighted in a different colour, or with a marker of some sort.
The remote control numbered buttons will access tracks directly, FF/RW will work on most players (but you will have to enable it in UserOps), Next/Previous will work.
2 - use a low bitrate M2V file and use "buttons over video".
You have no choice unless you are prepared to risk spec issues, playability issues & all manner of import issues and furthermore can obtain a mac and a copy of DVD Creator to run on it complete with the decoder video breakout box. No other application can do this (active navigation over slideshows) as Scenarist does it at the wrong level with Slideshows so even though you can have multiple images you cannot set a chapter marker at these images - it's one or all the same - and DVD-Lab Pro cannot create BOV over an Audio-Only title, only a movie title so that brings us back to low bitrate M2V files, and I need to know if space is an issue here for you, or just the way you had envisaged this all working.
Suggest the following layout (assuming you have just AC3/DTS surround and a stereo programme)
If you want to lose the AC3, you get a much simpler disc to create (single VTS) but at the cost of widespread compatibility.
Anyway, I would start it off something like this:
VMGM Menus:
Splash Screen (label logo, whatever)
Main Menu
Empty "Dummy" Menu for VTS 2 access
VTS1 - Surround Mixes
One Audio-Only title
One Root Menu
One Audio Menu (set this menu type in UserOps)
VTS2 - Stereo
One Audio-Only title
One Root Menu
Create your artwork, prepare single contiguous streams for each audio option and note the timecode for song breaks in 29.97 Non Drop timecode as HH:MM:SS:FF
Encode your AC3 and DTS streams, make sure you use DTS Padded with DLP or you may get issues as it will accept .cpt but is not happy about it.
Would a template help?
I could create the basic layout and structure, name everything & create button hotspots that you could later modify as needed and add the core code needed to make the disc work without triggering spec violations on import to DAC. BTW, if you ever get a spec import error of "VTSM Not permitted" you can ignore this & continue import safely as this restriction was lifted but I do not know what book revision your DAC is running.........
I will build this in version 2.31-2.5 PS Merge (I'll check for the build you mention but am not sure I am on this one, although the template should function well enough on a later version of the program) and it would also be a good idea to start a little notebook for various bits of code. You will need to know this, but a lot of it can be discovered by using the abstraction layer, seeing what code it write & then reusing this in the custom VM Command script editor. Things may get geeky, and a notebook will help you out - I know it works for me. Useful stuff like a pre/post trap to make sure a splash screen only plays once - pressing title or top menu on a remote effectively invokes the "First Play" option, and that is our splash screen or label logo or piracy warning or whatnot so we do this:
Right-Click the object in the Connections window (I have this one floating on it's own monitor) and open the "Edit VM Commands" area & add this:
If (GPRM0=1), LinkPGCN 2
GPRM0 = 1
Then in the Post Commands add this
LinkPGCN 2
We have tried this using "LinkTailPGC" in place of specifically naming the screen but a lot of soft players do not understand this - WinDVD for one so it's pointless even though spec legal.
In the VMGM and VTSM sections, the menu PGC numbers are matched to their order in the list so the first VMGM menu number is pgc 1, then pgc 2 etc. Same applies in VTSM.
(PGC 1 = first menu, but in code it is pgcn 1 etc)
Anyway - if a template like this will help....let me know?
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