But have we seen the thousands of songs that were to be remixed into Atmos? There are a few of us very strange people who really don't care about movies in surround sound.
More channels = more problems
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But have we seen the thousands of songs that were to be remixed into Atmos? There are a few of us very strange people who really don't care about movies in surround sound.
This is a classic example of FUBAR!
This is starting to make the early 70’s Quad era look like a screaming success in comparison- they’re (Dolby) the victims of their own technological Gordian knot with a Möbius twist.
Or is it just a Tidal issue?
This is starting to make the early 70’s Quad era look like a screaming success in comparison- they’re (Dolby) the victims of their own technological Gordian knot with a Möbius twist.
Or is it just a Tidal issue?
I do mean the streaming version. Isn't that the preferred media portal for the sound bar crowd? I have a nephew (by marriage) who touts his Atmos sound bar (with wireless sub) and its awesome performance all the time. He hasn't any other way to play multichannel media in his house. No disk player, no PC. He doesn't buy any digital formats at all. He does however have an ION turntable that he thinks is just the cats ass. He plays that through the sound bar too. WTF??? He is the poster boy for the Atmos target audience. Its all flash over substance.
Agreed on the movies and I'm not going to argue that point. But we really aren't concerned with movies here are we? Movies which, more often than not, are streamed as well.
As far as BDA's, I can count on one hand the number of Atmos releases that actually interest me and even then I'd still be able to type. Where are the 1000's of tracks mixed to Atmos we heard about over 2 years ago? They apparently are on a playlist somewhere waiting to be streamed to some gen X, Y,or Z er's sound bar. Are they ever going to release this stuff on a serious format? I suspected this when they announced it as 1000's of tracks, instead of 100's of albums. It was odd then. It makes sense now.
The electronics guys have to offer something to get us to upgrade. Electronic sales is all about riding the next wave. No one buys the old technology. In a market filled with Atmos capable AVRs, what chance does a run of the mill 5.1 receiver have? In the meantime these guys cant even get MC FLAC to play out of their front panel USB ports properly. Even gapless stereo seems to be an issue for them. Lets fix the basics before we add more channels. I'll bet those AVR's stream perfectly though.
I don't want to cast the wrong impression here. I'm not anti progress by any means. And I do appreciate you guys taking the Atmos plunge so everyone can get informed on it. I would love for Atmos to become a dominant surround force for music, and maybe it will some day. But from the looks of it, its off to the poorest start of any surround format I've seen, from the 70s onward. And I truly believe it is aimed at a demographic that couldn't care less about high quality audio.
Face it, we're all wackos!
sad but true it seems. every development puts more distance between us, making for more stress, and alienation.
Me! I simply don't care about movies. I've probably watched 3-4 movies in the last year. That's being fairly generous too.
How effed up is this: If I'm listening to the surround system and decide to watch TV...a movie or whatever...I turn off the system and use the TV speakers. The only way I can tolerate movies in surround sound is by turning on closed captioning so I can actually understand the dialog. It's always been that way for me.
I think it comes back to my own obsessesing about wanting to get the best possible sound. When I upgraded to try Atmos, I knew it was probably hype but I felt like I had embraced a lot of technology that happened to become standard. I mean anyone remember when Netflix movies were only on a pc? I remember when Netflix streaming only had two pages of movies . I also remember my first hdmi video card and how unbelievable it was to watch movies in 720p on a 26 inch screen. Atmos may flop but I really think the benefit for me has been the added sound stage to the music. Plant's vocals on led Zeppelin 111 sound amazing in my little budget system
Funny... ha ha- that you should mention this, on a lot of TV shows and British movies that I have trouble with understanding dialog I just get over it and switch my receiver to DPL-II (Movie mode) and it seems to throw a lot of it into the center channel (but less in the rears.) Suddenly the voices really pop! YMMV
A while back (or YEARS ago, the way time flies) I had an issue with two Oppo players having what seemed to be an arbitrary problem with DSF files paired with cue sheets. Some worked, some didn't and the error message was un-helpful. As I recall, Oppo wasn't sure what was going on, but I eventually figured it out on my own (Oppo strictly interpreted the standards and wouldn't allow a track starting point higher than 99:99.999) and when I reported back what I'd learned the guy I was dealing with seemed genuinely happy to hear it and said that he'd make a note in case someone else ran into the same problem.
It may seem like that but it’s pretty much a repeat:
In 70s Quad we needed additional speakers, new decoders and amps. Multiple formats not compatible. LP formats weren’t compatible, tapes weren’t either, so even more equipment needed. Lack of big artist releases.
90s/2000s DVDA, SACD and DTSCD. Multiple formats incompatible. New decoders, amps, disc players (and more speakers, 4 if you had stereo, another two C and LFE if you already had Quad). Discs weren’t compatible between players, DVD-A discs wouldn’t play in DVD players,
The Atmos experience is no worse.
Maybe the way to look at Atmos is simply this:
More surround music is being released. And even if one never gets the equipment, you can buy a title, rip the individual tracks, and create a disc or Flac files to playback how you like. And if we get more dedicated 5.1 mixes because of Atmos titles, so much the better.
Everything else is just equipment to one’s taste and needs. If there wasn’t Atmos, there would certainly be less surround music out there now.
More surround music is being released. And even if one never gets the equipment, you can buy a title, rip the individual tracks, and create a disc or Flac files to playback how you like. And if we get more dedicated 5.1 mixes because of Atmos titles, so much the better.
Everything else is just equipment to one’s taste and needs. If there wasn’t Atmos, there would certainly be less surround music out there now.
I reckon we're normal its just the rest of the world that aren't
I can't remember the last one I watched or when, I'm more likely to read a Movie than watch it!
My kids really enjoy the home theater experience and the greatly expanded soundstage Atmos brought to my system. It did, however, make me realize something when my daughter said " you spend three hours to get the sound right on a one and a half hour movie". The truth is I like the process more then the actual result.
That's because we are a bunch of GEEKS!!!!
"This sounds awfully familiar" I said to myself while thinking about how much time I spend getting the online files just right compared to how much time I spend actually listening to them...
I read an article about Asperger syndrome a few years back that used as an example people who actually don't want to take pictures but are fascinated by cameras and lenses. It...raised questions.
Guilty - although I have more of a "love/hate" thing going on with the process.
jimfisheye
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There's a difference to this over a natural evolution that requires more speaker channels (for one example). Quad required double the amp channels and speakers. Fair enough. But you could choose any amps and speakers you liked. The encoded formats? Back then a hardware decoder was how this was done. And they were sold stand alone in addition to being bundled into receivers.
This is different. I can buy more interface channels, more amp channels, and more speakers to fit the bill. But I'm locked out! I have to literally purchase a combo hardware unit with all the AD converter channels needed (the theater install aimed audio interfaces) or also even the amp channels as well (consumer AVR) to get access to their secret decoder.
With the AVR example, that's basically your entire system in a box (audio interface/DACs/preamp/amps). The analogy back in the quad days would be if they made you start over and buy your entire system again.
It completely depends on your situation. Maybe starting over was already in the plan? Gear like DA converters and amplifier channels are 20 year kind of purchases. If you have a modular system and add/replace/upgrade components as you go, this is a blunt lock out and money grab.
This is different. I can buy more interface channels, more amp channels, and more speakers to fit the bill. But I'm locked out! I have to literally purchase a combo hardware unit with all the AD converter channels needed (the theater install aimed audio interfaces) or also even the amp channels as well (consumer AVR) to get access to their secret decoder.
With the AVR example, that's basically your entire system in a box (audio interface/DACs/preamp/amps). The analogy back in the quad days would be if they made you start over and buy your entire system again.
It completely depends on your situation. Maybe starting over was already in the plan? Gear like DA converters and amplifier channels are 20 year kind of purchases. If you have a modular system and add/replace/upgrade components as you go, this is a blunt lock out and money grab.
I'm kind of at a loss reading through this thread. I've had Atmos for a number of years, did it right with overhead ceiling mounted speakers, not the reflecting modules and overall had no problems with hardware or setup issues. I started with a Marantz AV8802a prepro and now a Trinnov Altitude 16.
It all works, it's solid, and gives me no problems.
This is not meant for just AoQ but you do have to use hardware that supports the format An Oppo 93 or earlier type of player won't cut it since it can't pass the Dolby TrueHD Atmos metadata. Again no offense to anyone here but this was known from the beginning IF one had sifted through the various mfg support info, and even discussed for a long time on AVSForum. An older BD player in this timeframe wouldn't work. For Oppo, it was clearly noted that you need an 103/105 or 203/205 to pass Atmos. Just bitstream alone isn't all that's needed. It has to pass the specific metadata and the chipsets used in earlier players won't. For Atmos, DTS-X, just get a $200 Sony 1100ES UHD player, a AVR with at least HDMI 1.4 and you're good, the Sony also plays SACD & DVDA, unlike some other UHD players.
Atmos works with HDMI 1.4 although in my case both processors and the players are 2.0.
The main issue with Atmos is not the hardware but the mixers use of it an the platform you use! For music, it adds a lot to the surround field.
For movies, how well it enhances the experience highly depends on the studio and specific mix. For example, Disney titles are notorious for having dumbed down Atmos - weaker bass, fixed instead of moving objects - we call it print-out or hard coded mixes since they use fixed 7.x.2 or 7.x.4 channels instead of objects that can move between channels. For Disney, it's mostly fixed channel based. Some movies & Atmos series have very aggressive mixes with lots of moving objects. Some are pretty lame. With the Altitude, they have an object viewer as well as channel level meters in the software which make it easy to see how the movie/music is mixed.
Streaming platforms:
Netflix makes has consistent & good use of Atmos although some are 7.x.2 with limited objects and some like the space/scifi series Another Life has some of the most aggressive use of Atmos' moving objects of any movie or series I've heard.
OTOH, Amazon Prime is a very mixed bag. Their use of Atmos is inconsistent, at any given time, a series will be in Atmos and then it's dropped to just 5.1 with no explanation or logical reasons. For examples, S5 of The Expanse was in Atmos until several days before the last episode when Amazon reverted it to 5.1 for about a month and then back to Atmos again. Go figure. Jack Ryan, Carnival Row, Hanna were the same, it's Atmos for awhile, then 5.1 then back to Atmos. Jack Ryan in Atmos is 99.9% 7.1 anyway; only a brief moment of overhead use even in action scenes. Carnival Row was done pretty good by someone who knows how to use Atmos.
I can't comment on Atmos in Tidal or Amazon Music since I don't use those services. I use Qobuz which hasn't yet streamed Atmos music.
What I am a little surprised about is some of the posts and denigration of Atmos (doomed? - I think not, it's standard in nearly all hardware). Some of these posts remind me of what I read back in the 70s in the quadraphonic era regarding how quad was dumb, a PITA vs stereo, didn't add much, was harder to implement, needed more speakers. Here it is >40 yrs later and all of us are still playing & value our quad recordings. The same arguments that used to diss quadraphonic sound and formats are being used to diss Atmos. I find that rather ironic
I'm 70 so it's not an age thing...you either change gear and add speakers to use new surround technology and surround formats or you don't. But you can't use old gear and expect it to work. I still have and use legacy quad decoders so I'm not abandoning "purist" stereo or quad. Atmos is an addition not a replacement. I use the Altitude to play 5.1/4.0 and stereo too.
Atmos can be thrilling or it can be disappointing...it's up to the studio or recording label, the mixer's creativity or lack of it regardless of movies or music. I have some Atmos music (and movies) that are really mind enhancingSounds from all over the place. If you want to hear some of what Atmos can do for music, REM Automatic for the People, Abbey Road, some electronica and if you get your hands on one, the Dolby Atmos demo discs. The muisic clips are amazing! DTS-X and Auro also make for great surround & overhead mixes.
I just had to add my perspective. When done right, immersive audio like Atmos is fantastic, the same as I feel about great quad mixes today & 40 yrs ago. And adding Auromatic or DSU upmixing on top of a great 4.0 SACD like Miles Davis Bitches' Brew really adds to the surround experience.
It all works, it's solid, and gives me no problems.
This is not meant for just AoQ but you do have to use hardware that supports the format
An Oppo 93 or earlier type of player won't cut it since it can't pass the Dolby TrueHD Atmos metadata. Again no offense to anyone here but this was known from the beginning IF one had sifted through the various mfg support info, and even discussed for a long time on AVSForum. An older BD player in this timeframe wouldn't work. For Oppo, it was clearly noted that you need an 103/105 or 203/205 to pass Atmos. Just bitstream alone isn't all that's needed. It has to pass the specific metadata and the chipsets used in earlier players won't. For Atmos, DTS-X, just get a $200 Sony 1100ES UHD player, a AVR with at least HDMI 1.4 and you're good, the Sony also plays SACD & DVDA, unlike some other UHD players.Atmos works with HDMI 1.4 although in my case both processors and the players are 2.0.
The main issue with Atmos is not the hardware but the mixers use of it an the platform you use! For music, it adds a lot to the surround field.
For movies, how well it enhances the experience highly depends on the studio and specific mix. For example, Disney titles are notorious for having dumbed down Atmos - weaker bass, fixed instead of moving objects - we call it print-out or hard coded mixes since they use fixed 7.x.2 or 7.x.4 channels instead of objects that can move between channels. For Disney, it's mostly fixed channel based. Some movies & Atmos series have very aggressive mixes with lots of moving objects. Some are pretty lame. With the Altitude, they have an object viewer as well as channel level meters in the software which make it easy to see how the movie/music is mixed.
Streaming platforms:
Netflix makes has consistent & good use of Atmos although some are 7.x.2 with limited objects and some like the space/scifi series Another Life has some of the most aggressive use of Atmos' moving objects of any movie or series I've heard.
OTOH, Amazon Prime is a very mixed bag. Their use of Atmos is inconsistent, at any given time, a series will be in Atmos and then it's dropped to just 5.1 with no explanation or logical reasons. For examples, S5 of The Expanse was in Atmos until several days before the last episode when Amazon reverted it to 5.1 for about a month and then back to Atmos again. Go figure. Jack Ryan, Carnival Row, Hanna were the same, it's Atmos for awhile, then 5.1 then back to Atmos. Jack Ryan in Atmos is 99.9% 7.1 anyway; only a brief moment of overhead use even in action scenes. Carnival Row was done pretty good by someone who knows how to use Atmos.
I can't comment on Atmos in Tidal or Amazon Music since I don't use those services. I use Qobuz which hasn't yet streamed Atmos music.
What I am a little surprised about is some of the posts and denigration of Atmos (doomed? - I think not, it's standard in nearly all hardware). Some of these posts remind me of what I read back in the 70s in the quadraphonic era regarding how quad was dumb, a PITA vs stereo, didn't add much, was harder to implement, needed more speakers. Here it is >40 yrs later and all of us are still playing & value our quad recordings. The same arguments that used to diss quadraphonic sound and formats are being used to diss Atmos. I find that rather ironic
I'm 70 so it's not an age thing...you either change gear and add speakers to use new surround technology and surround formats or you don't. But you can't use old gear and expect it to work. I still have and use legacy quad decoders so I'm not abandoning "purist" stereo or quad. Atmos is an addition not a replacement. I use the Altitude to play 5.1/4.0 and stereo too.
Atmos can be thrilling or it can be disappointing...it's up to the studio or recording label, the mixer's creativity or lack of it regardless of movies or music. I have some Atmos music (and movies) that are really mind enhancing
Sounds from all over the place. If you want to hear some of what Atmos can do for music, REM Automatic for the People, Abbey Road, some electronica and if you get your hands on one, the Dolby Atmos demo discs. The muisic clips are amazing! DTS-X and Auro also make for great surround & overhead mixes.I just had to add my perspective. When done right, immersive audio like Atmos is fantastic, the same as I feel about great quad mixes today & 40 yrs ago. And adding Auromatic or DSU upmixing on top of a great 4.0 SACD like Miles Davis Bitches' Brew really adds to the surround experience.
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I certainly hope it's not doomed, and I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade. I'm glad I have it, and I'm going to keep fighting the good fight. But, we've all been down this road, many times.
New format launched - expensive demands made on end user - confusing technology - lack of support - lack of titles - new releases dry up - deemed failure for "lack of sales, lack of interest"
The industry just loves to do this - make all the same mistakes over again, and then blame the customers.
At this point I'm a pessimist - I've been burned too many times. But, hey, in the meantime, I'll buy what they put out, and enjoy it while I can.
What we really need is to find a way to digitally capture the tidal materials - that can disappear at any moment, and I don't see any sign of physical release of that stuff. Not sure how that could be pulled off - would require some sort of hdmi hacking and capturing I suppose.
New format launched - expensive demands made on end user - confusing technology - lack of support - lack of titles - new releases dry up - deemed failure for "lack of sales, lack of interest"
The industry just loves to do this - make all the same mistakes over again, and then blame the customers.
At this point I'm a pessimist - I've been burned too many times. But, hey, in the meantime, I'll buy what they put out, and enjoy it while I can.
What we really need is to find a way to digitally capture the tidal materials - that can disappear at any moment, and I don't see any sign of physical release of that stuff. Not sure how that could be pulled off - would require some sort of hdmi hacking and capturing I suppose.
