More stealth quad albums

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MidiMagic

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Here are some more stealth vinyl quad albums:

Vangelis recorded most of his later albums in either SQ or UMX (I am trying to determine which). They are not labeled as such, because the record company that published the albums (RCA) would not allow an SQ recording if they knew. But they definitely have sound sources in all 6 primary SQ positions.

"Tommy" (the movie soundtrack) is in QS, as is the movie. No mention, because Polydor used CD-4.

The Beach Boys "Love You" is in Dynaquad. There was an article on it, but no mention on the album.

All of the ABBA albums 1977 and later seem to be in either UMX or H. Because they were on Atlantic, there would be no mention of matrix quad on the album.

Some Meco albums are in Dolby Surround.

Most movie soundtrack albums are in Dolby Surround.
 

oxforddickie

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I would be very interested in your source for most of your post. "Tommy" is a well known QS release, but Polydor as a label never released any quad albums.

I find it hard to believe that ABBA released any quad albums, especially in Matrix H or UMX. There were no european UMX releases, all were released in Japan, with few major artists.

You do see somewhat fixcated on the UMX format, as your last posting i replied to.

What we like here is proof behind postings, so please do supply, especially Vangellis (you sure your not geting confused with Klaus Schulze who did have a few early SQ albums)

And most movie soundtracks being in Dolby Surround (urgh), movie soundtracks are mixed in different sessions to that for soundtrack albums, the surround mixing only happens when the whole film soundtrack is mixed. Again, unless you can provide proof

OD
 

winopener

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Polydor did release some quad album:
Japan, some Japanese artists in CM-4 (Compatible Maxtrix, have no idea of the formula, done when Japan was battling between various matrix scheme);
Japan, again some other Japanese artist in CD-4.
Canada, some Q8 (James Last).
All of these extremely rare.

A known unmarked QS on Polydor is James Last "Voodoo".
 

oxforddickie

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Ah, right, well a lot happens in japan that goes un-noticed in the rest of the world, doesn't it LOL

I'd imagine CM-4 will be a variant of RM/EV/QS etc.

Interesting news about the james last album, you think it may have been a market tester?

OD
 

Doug G.

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You have to be very careful in declaring certain releases stealth quad because there are a surprising number of stereo records that sound like they are deliberate quad mixes.

It's all in the phase relationships of the signals, you know.

Doug
 

MidiMagic

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My proof is what comes out of the decoders.

I know about phase relationships causing accidental RM/SQ/EV/Dyna back channel information, but SQ back modulations, H back modulations, and UMX front and back modulations don't happen by chance very often.

The SQ left back and UMX center front are 90 degree shifts with the left channel leading the right channel (clockwise).
The SQ right back, H center back, and UMX center back are all 90 degree shifts with the right channel leading the left channel (anticlockwise).

These do not often occur by accident. And when they do happen by accident, they happen at certain frequencies, but not others. Since the parts stay in the same locations with different notes, it indicates that someone put these modulations into those recordings on purpose.

The musical arrangement also gives me clues.

I found all six fundamental SQ modulations on most of my Vangelis albums. The early ones do not have this. "Heaven and Hell" is striking in SQ, with different parts in the different positions. But there are no primary parts at center back, just reverb and pads. I even checked it with my oscilloscope to make sure. There are circular patterns visible that do not happen with ordinary stereo recordings. The same effect is in "Chariots of Fire" and "Opera Sauvage".

I don't have any Klaus Schulze albums.

The Abba albums are different. While both 90 degree modulations are present, the left leads right (clockwise) one is much more prevalent than the right leads left (anticlockwise) one. It is also absent in the earliest Abba albums. This suggests UMX, H, or early Ambisonic encoding, because that modulation is the encoding for center front. But since some of the albums are older than Ambisonic, I eliminated it. Again, I used my oscilloscope to confirm this. It could be SQ, but who would record a lot on the left back, but very little on the right back.

I am not "fixated on UMX," but it seems to be the most likely answer, given the evidence at hand.

I also know that this is not some anomaly in my equipment, because other records don't do it.

There are a couple of other possibilities:

- The synthesizer used in the Vangelis recordings might output quadrature signals from the oscillators for some reason.

- It could be another attempt of the 90 degree phase shift to eliminate the oversized soloist in mono play.

I used to have a magazine article telling how Dynaquad was used in that Beach Boys album. Unfortunately, I can't locate it now, because I was forced to dispose of most of my old magazines when I moved. I saved most of the quad stuff, but this was in either a general purpose audio magazine (e.g. High Fidelity, Stereo Review) or in a rock star genre magazine. All of those hit the dumpster when I moved, unless I marked them for saving due to quad articles or construction projects. Likewise, I had an interview with Meco Monardo in one of the '70s disco magazines.

Polydor may have not released any quad albums, but at that time, they were a subsidiary of a company that signed with CD-4 and made CD-4 albums. My copy of the Tommy soundtrack is on Polydor, and it is in QS.

Try listening to the movie soundtrack albums through decoders, rather than demanding proof from some documented source. The ones that are all music by one group of musicians probably have separate mixes done by the group. But the ones that contain cuts of dialog or action from the film have Dolby Surround, at least on those cuts.
 

quadtrade

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This is true and a couple others of his are unmarked. He must have loved quad. The other place to look is ABC. But Ed Michael's mixes were rather dull most of the time.

A known unmarked QS on Polydor is James Last "Voodoo".
 

Old Quad Guy

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All of the ABBA albums 1977 and later seem to be in either UMX or H. Because they were on Atlantic, there would be no mention of matrix quad on the album.
Hi MidiMagic. The Abba 1977 albums are in Quad UMX or H? If so, that would be really cool and something I'd love to hear. Although by 1977 I don't recall much Quad being released, perhaps the reason for the stealthiness of it. Or could it be the "phase" comes from all those vocals or the way it was recorded? Let us know what else you find. Thanks.
 

MidiMagic

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I am busy setting up a new system. When it is finished, I will revisit these issues.
 

Lynn Olson

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All of the Beach Boys "Surf's Up" is encoded in EV-4 (near QS) matrix. Play it in QS or Dolby Pro Logic II and you'll hear it for yourself.

(Apologies in advance if this is old news to the forum - but it was always one of my favorite demo pieces, right up there with the EMI SQ version of DSOTM and Santana.)
 

Kazaam

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All of the Beach Boys "Surf's Up" is encoded in EV-4 (near QS) matrix. Play it in QS or Dolby Pro Logic II and you'll hear it for yourself
Does anyone know if the stereo mix of "Surfs Up" from the "Sunflower/Surfs Up" twofer CD retains the matrix quad? (At least I'm assuming it's stereo CD, not mono?) I can't recall what it sounds like in DPLII, but will definitely give it a listen later on just for kicks and grins to see what happens.
 

Larry Geller

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Surf's Up is still in quad, as are the tracks Got To Know The Woman & Cool, Cool Water, on Sunflower.
 

0tto

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You have to be very careful in declaring certain releases stealth quad because there are a surprising number of stereo records that sound like they are deliberate quad mixes.

It's all in the phase relationships of the signals, you know.

Doug
you have very interesting aproach. please be so kind to give us more precise guide line how to distinguish when it's quad mix and when it's a stereo mix?
most likely at those time many studios had used lot of tricks with use of matrixed phases to improve stereo panorama, but if so, isn't such mix suposed to be quad, regardless of printed on sleeve info?
b.t.w. regarding of the marketing policies of big record labels - that's true, they used to be in the camps of competing formats but as a matter of fact, not those labels did the stereo or quad mixes but sound engineers in studios.
technically if there master tape was done as matrix but didn't marked as such mix, how one can know about this without listening of the source mix on appropriate quad equipment :)
 

MidiMagic

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It's hard to tell whether an album is intentional or accidental if the matrix suspected is QS, EV, or Dynaquad. But you can try ferreting out some clues.

1. If the sound sources in the back change their panning with pitch, the effect is probably accidental. Such effects are caused by mic placements that pick up more than one sound. Another cause is one of those fake stereo generators.

2. Wide stereo is produced in two ways:

- The sound is panned to one channel, and delayed in the other. This will produce a frequency dependent effect in quad, with the image shifting with frequency.

- The sound is panned to one channel, and phase inverted at a reduced level in the other. This is the same as encoding a sound in the back half of an RM image. Usually this will decode as straight left in an EV decoder, and farther back (but not to the back speaker on that side) with QS.

3. Some record companies recorded the stereo channels with a 90 degree phase difference. It was an attempt to remove the center soloist boost when the recording is played in mono. But it caused image rendering problems. This was done before Quad came on the scene. If this recording is played on an SQ decoder, the items panned to center come out one of the back speakers, but not the other one. Most of my stereo A&M label records (Including most of my Herb Alpert records) before 1969 have this, with the center information coming out the left back. These decode correctly in BMX.

4. Any recording that produces located sounds in both SQ back speakers is probably SQ, BMX, or H. If they are at equal levels, it is probably SQ. Any random phase mic leakage effect will cause images that change location with frequency.

5. Some producers may have liked quad so much that they kept mixing in matrix quad. I built a simple attachment for a 4-bus mixer, so all of my amateur music recordings are in QS. I would say that any recording with sounds consistently panned directly to the QS back speakers is intentional quad.

5. Sometimes you have to read the trade mags to find out what producers are doing. That's how I found out that Meco was using Dolby Surround, and that the Beach Boys were using the Dynaquad encoder (and the earlier Dynaco Diamond encoder).

6. Sometimes a record engineer will place exaggerated reverb out of phase in both channels to spread it out. It disappears in mono, and is not locatable in ordinary stereo. It decodes as center back in RM and SQ.

7. Film albums made after 1977 probably have any material taken directly from the film soundtrack in Dolby Surround. Also, most VHS stereo tapes of films made after 1977 are in Dolby Surround, whether or not they are marked.

8. Some very early stereo recordings, and some stereo recordings made by musical groups without using a studio, have the left and right channels out of phase with each other. This usually produces pannings in the QS back, with nothing in the front. I have one R&B album and one classical album exhibiting phase reversal. Both are on cheapo labels (e.g. Pickwick). I hadn't noticed this until I played them on my QS system. Any recording with back sounds, but no center front sounds, is usually a phase reversal error.
 

ClarkNovak

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Forgive me, but I have a very hard time believing that "Love You" was encoded in Dynaquad, of all things. Love You came out in '77, by which time Dynaco's little Quad scheme had been roundly eclipsed for at least 6 years by QS, CD4 and the last hanger-on, SQ. I can't imagine why any recording engineer would use that particular piece of obsolete technology that late in the game.
 

MidiMagic

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They still had the equipment. And many of those songs were recorded earlier, but not released until then.

The Gately encoder was not obsolete, since it produced RM code. It works just as well on QS as it does on a Dynaquad.

The main differences between Dynaquad and QS were in the decoder, not the encoder.

I am still using a variant of the pan-potted RM encoder I designed and built in 1971.
 

tejanoboy

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My proof is what comes out of the decoders.

I know about phase relationships causing accidental RM/SQ/EV/Dyna back channel information, but SQ back modulations, H back modulations, and UMX front and back modulations don't happen by chance very often.

The SQ left back and UMX center front are 90 degree shifts with the left channel leading the right channel (clockwise).
The SQ right back, H center back, and UMX center back are all 90 degree shifts with the right channel leading the left channel (anticlockwise).

These do not often occur by accident. And when they do happen by accident, they happen at certain frequencies, but not others. Since the parts stay in the same locations with different notes, it indicates that someone put these modulations into those recordings on purpose.

The musical arrangement also gives me clues.

I found all six fundamental SQ modulations on most of my Vangelis albums. The early ones do not have this. "Heaven and Hell" is striking in SQ, with different parts in the different positions. But there are no primary parts at center back, just reverb and pads. I even checked it with my oscilloscope to make sure. There are circular patterns visible that do not happen with ordinary stereo recordings. The same effect is in "Chariots of Fire" and "Opera Sauvage".

I don't have any Klaus Schulze albums.

The Abba albums are different. While both 90 degree modulations are present, the left leads right (clockwise) one is much more prevalent than the right leads left (anticlockwise) one. It is also absent in the earliest Abba albums. This suggests UMX, H, or early Ambisonic encoding, because that modulation is the encoding for center front. But since some of the albums are older than Ambisonic, I eliminated it. Again, I used my oscilloscope to confirm this. It could be SQ, but who would record a lot on the left back, but very little on the right back.

I am not "fixated on UMX," but it seems to be the most likely answer, given the evidence at hand.

I also know that this is not some anomaly in my equipment, because other records don't do it.

There are a couple of other possibilities:

- The synthesizer used in the Vangelis recordings might output quadrature signals from the oscillators for some reason.

- It could be another attempt of the 90 degree phase shift to eliminate the oversized soloist in mono play.

I used to have a magazine article telling how Dynaquad was used in that Beach Boys album. Unfortunately, I can't locate it now, because I was forced to dispose of most of my old magazines when I moved. I saved most of the quad stuff, but this was in either a general purpose audio magazine (e.g. High Fidelity, Stereo Review) or in a rock star genre magazine. All of those hit the dumpster when I moved, unless I marked them for saving due to quad articles or construction projects. Likewise, I had an interview with Meco Monardo in one of the '70s disco magazines.

Polydor may have not released any quad albums, but at that time, they were a subsidiary of a company that signed with CD-4 and made CD-4 albums. My copy of the Tommy soundtrack is on Polydor, and it is in QS.

Try listening to the movie soundtrack albums through decoders, rather than demanding proof from some documented source. The ones that are all music by one group of musicians probably have separate mixes done by the group. But the ones that contain cuts of dialog or action from the film have Dolby Surround, at least on those cuts.
Two equal but 90º apart signals will ALSO appear as DEAD CENTER in QS! (equal level in all corners) TB
 

Gimme 4

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"Tommy" (the movie soundtrack) is in QS"


I just picked this CD up, used, today for $5. Listening to it with my QSD-1 now. Sounds great so far. I suppose the proper way to play it back is with QS engaged? Surround mode makes a dramatic difference but puts more in the back channels than the fronts.

Also curious which mode of surround most closely apprroximates QS with my Pioneer AV receiver with the usual Dolby PL etc., if any?
 

oxforddickie

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There's only one correct way of playing this, and that's using a QS decoder. Using anything else will give you inaccurate results. Of course, you could download the decoded version from the blog....

OD
 
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