My Seagate 4TB HDD from Dec 2020 has suddenly died, Any suggestions?

[MidiMagic]

For better or worse here's my current strategy for dealing with failed drives, of which I've seen many over the years, by duplication on separate HDD's.
Skip to TLDR for the gist of it.

I have 8 HDD's and 2 SSD's on my main rig.
The total capacity of the HDD's is a little over 50TB.
I typically have bought the drives on Ebay, but are actually sold by "authorized" sellers such as Newegg. No problems with returns to Seagate under warranty so far.
On another machine I try to keep at least one HDD available for cloning new purchases. When it fills up it may go on the shelf out of service (still not necessarily a good thing for the drives and I will soon move all the archive drives to my second rig and keep them spinning)

I keep a bootable utility (such as Easeus, e.g.) in case I need to try to extract any data from a failing drive.
I keep the Seagate bootable USB utility for running tests on drives; the Windows version can and will give incorrect information at times but the bootable one running on linux is more reliable and can serve as documentation for returns before absolute failure occurs!. After all, it's their own utility so they can't very well deny the results.

My main rig has 8 SATA ports with a Pcie add-in board allowing up to 10 more drives that uses Windows native drivers, not some Marvell crap from 2010. (I learned this the hard way through a pile of Pcie SATA boards that run on Marvell drivers) NO Marvell chips on this board, in other words, which the drivers for I have found increasingly out of step with Windows 10 and 11 and cause frequent problems.

Currently the majority of my surround collection (including many but not all concert BD's) is contained here, and all the ripped DTS-CD's, DVD's, DVDA, SACD's are in folders duplicated on at least one other HDD.
I also have the duplication of programs and utilities on different drives, and have a folder for backup for the OS drive and my D: drive which is where my Documents folder is with pictures, documents, All the stuff you want to survive an OS screwup requiring a reinstall which would / could wipe out any documents I hold dear, Documents/Pictures etc also reside on another machine.
I try to keep most stuff OFF my OS drive for this reason, and have for years moved the Documents/Downloads/and other folders to a separate drive immediately after reinstalling Windows to whatevr dedicated folder I have for such things so there will be no screwup on my part of documents saved permanently only to the OS drive.

!! I now only buy NAS drives, although I still have a Barracuda or two in use. I highly recommend NAS drives.
With at least some Seagate NAS drives, when they fail under warranty they will offer to extract whatever data they can for you. I have been lucky enough not to need this.
With NAS drives, at least with Seagate, my perception is you have less hassle getting replacements and may not have to pay shipping to return a failed drive.
WD NAS drives enjoy a good rep but I've been sticking with Seagate for now, they all fail eventually anyway and I've had better luck finding discounted prices from Newegg, etc.

Be as prepared as possible for weird crap happening. Once a Windows 10 update (as far as I could tell) caused several drives to stop showing up even in the BIOS! I had to physically move each of the recalcitrant drives to an older machine to have them recognized. Once moved and again able to be accessed, the Event log for the drive would show it failed "migration". After a while whatever is written to the drive's memory is reset and the drive can be moved back to the original machine. No where on the internet did I see this, and MS and Seagate had no fix for it with MS tech declaring he'd never "heard of it, period". For some drives it took moving back and forth between machines several time to get a "reset" and be recognized on the machine in which it stopped showing up.

Recognize that data cables can and do fail. Period. I don't care how expensive they were. Use something like Hard Disk Sentinel and it will show you if a drive has been having communication issues, a sure sign of a failing data cable. Yank that cable out and throw it in the trash and replace it if you value your data! I also learned this the hard way.

TLDR Keep at least one duplicate on a separate drive, better yet a separate pc if possible, otherwise you are accomplishing nothing having a backup.

Microsoft was doing this on purpose.

It considered swapping hardware in and out on Windows computers to be the same as pirating the operating system.

 

[jimfisheye]

Even though I said "today" I have to assume that it will be running into tonight. I'm doing it old school (because I don't know a better way to do it)...grabbing all the "A" artists and dragging across to another drive. Yeah, yeah...whatever. I'm a rookie.

I keep primary:backup 1:1.
Curate my files however I might on the primary. Clone it to the backup volume 1:1. Doing backups "manually" just leaves room for operator error.

Cloning apps like Carbon Copy Cloner have a "safety net" feature to keep a folder of deleted or modified files as space permits. (Time Machine does this as well. You just can't boot from a TM backup.) CCC is worth the $40 or whatever it costs now. Having extra clones of your system drive that boot your machine kicking around is just a good idea.

I hear Windows users mention Acronis True Image or Macrium Reflect for cloning apps. CCC is still Mac only at present.

 

[DuncanS]

After reading stories of HDD's failing after sitting on a shelf unused (talking about drives that were previously in use but now being used for music archive) I just reinstalled all 6 HDD's back into my two main pc's. Ida know if they actually fail sitting around but why take a chance?
So now I've got 9 HDD's on one pc and 6 on the other. Not to mention the SSD's with the OS and documents . Running more fans just to keep the drives cool.

My secondary pc is a full tower NZXT Switch 810 I bought about 10/12 years ago, and it has two dedicated HDD cages. But the darn things only hold 3 HDD's per cage! Unreal how much room they take up, whoever designed them must have been real conscious of keeping the drives spaced/cool when they could have put at least 4 per cage.
Since this pc has a full length video card and water cooling the big SOB is about maxed out and without reconfiguring stuff not even a DVD drive. It's got an Aquaero fan/pump controller taking up one of the front slots and a Lamptron FC8 taking care of additional fans/lights (yeah I like LED's) plus the led's illuminate the interior of the case for a nice night light under the desk/table. I had to put the big bassard on a rolling cart I made just to get it from under the table, and had to jack up the old dining room oak table I use for a desk

I've never heard of an HDD fail because it was stored. If that does happen, then a failure mode is that possibly the heads weren't properly parked before removal (so hit the disc), the HDD was given a high shock (dropped!) or the circuitry was damaged by static on removal/reinsertion. Usually it is the bearings or head server that will fail due to lots of use, so if they're back in your towers I'd try to get keep them in some form of stand-by mode so not 'normally' being accessed by any OS etc.

 

[mandrix]

I've never heard of an HDD fail because it was stored. If that does happen, then a failure mode is that possibly the heads weren't properly parked before removal (so hit the disc), the HDD was given a high shock (dropped!) or the circuitry was damaged by static on removal/reinsertion. Usually it is the bearings or head server that will fail due to lots of use, so if they're back in your towers I'd try to get keep them in some form of stand-by mode so not 'normally' being accessed by any OS etc.

I never had either. But I've read it so many times I started to wonder. Good old internet, you can always count on people to make stuff up or repeat someone else ad infinitum.
Anyway now that I've had a chance to air them out, I'm going to get an accurate catalog of each then put them back in their safe little anti-static wraps and bubble boxes. I sort of wanted to copy a few items out as well but wasn't sure exactly which disk.

 

[tonyE]

I've never heard of an HDD fail because it was stored. If that does happen, then a failure mode is that possibly the heads weren't properly parked before removal (so hit the disc), the HDD was given a high shock (dropped!) or the circuitry was damaged by static on removal/reinsertion. Usually it is the bearings or head server that will fail due to lots of use, so if they're back in your towers I'd try to get keep them in some form of stand-by mode so not 'normally' being accessed by any OS etc.

Magnetic HDDs go to sleep and park their heads. Even if you yank their power, the heads get parked. Because they are random access, there is seldom much writing work to do in the queue.

SSDs have -hopefully- enough capacitance to complete writing to NAND even when the power is removed - this is important because SSDs are always reading and writing in order to keep the storage "fresh". And even so, an SSD might take some time to come back on line depending on how much repair must be done to the FTL (Flash Translation Layer) tables after a power loss.

 

[DuncanS]

Magnetic HDDs go to sleep and park their heads. Even if you yank their power, the heads get parked. Because they are random access, there is seldom much writing work to do in the queue.

SSDs have -hopefully- enough capacitance to complete writing to NAND even when the power is removed - this is important because SSDs are always reading and writing in order to keep the storage "fresh". And even so, an SSD might take some time to come back on line depending on how much repair must be done to the FTL (Flash Translation Layer) tables after a power loss.

A lot of SSDs do do a Read-Modify-Write instead of a pure Read, the problem is that can 'wear out' the NAND device rather quickly if things go awry software wise. There is a small residual charge injection each time an access happens, this shifts the transistor threshold a little bit each time, until eventually it fails. NOR memory also isn't infallible either. The other issue is that with an SSD if the interface circuitry on a memory chip fails you've lost the data. With an HDD it is possible to get the data back from data recovery specialists (but rather expensive!), I'd rather have more back-ups and its cheaper. I only use SSDs for programs, and store data on HDDs.

 

[AYanguas]

It is significant that, when looking into S.M.A.R.T. disk data, you see the 'Remaining drive lifetime', according to the amount of data written. You see that for the SSDs, But No for the HDDs.

In any case, you may use SSD, assuming the capacity is addequate for your amount of data, the same way you use HDD, and also have greater performance. But you have to think that the device, either SSD or HDD, can fail at any time.

Thus, the online redundancy (RAIDs) partially solves the risk problem, and you have always to think about a solid backup and contingency plan with several copies in different devices and locations of your valuable data.

Having worked for years in backup and contingency plan projects for customers, I obviously apply my learning and experience in my own house systems. I panic when I see people, friends, who have their home business data on a single laptop, hardly copying anything to USB pendrives.

 

[mandrix]

Well I have at minimum copies on separate drives, same machine or no. Where I can I have 3rd copies (drives not usually in a machine) I'm also behind an OOPS! so barring a direct lightening strike I should be OK. Of course I do live in Florida, lightening strike capitol. I've had a surge protector get fried before, but it did it's job and protected the equipment. I didn't even know it was out (kept supplying power) until I noticed the indicator light was off.
I've got all the audio and pc's on OOPS! save one pc which is just on a surge protector. I intended to get an OOPS! for it as well but I keep forgetting. (Secretly I want to replace it, 4th generation Intel) Shhh don't tell the wife!

The worst problem I have is evidently me. My wife blames me when her pc goes screwy, (I don't use it) so it has to be my fault, right? Usually after deleting 562 messages in her inbox/junk folders and some other cleanup it comes around. maybe at extremes run sfc/scannow and chkdsk /f .
She gets plumb mad about it. Sigh. She just told me last weekend Outlook wasn't working and she was using the web link to our ISP. I said how long? Oh, a few months. I didn't want to bother you.

 

[mandrix]

Magnetic HDDs go to sleep and park their heads. Even if you yank their power, the heads get parked. Because they are random access, there is seldom much writing work to do in the queue.
--------

Well yeah, unless you disturb one bad enough? I confess I don't have a clue how one reacts when it senses a violent collision but I'm guessing if the whole machine falls over it might cause some HDD damage. Or can they spin down that fast? IDK.
Changing up some here; Something I observed once when a work pc was having some additional HDD's added was the tech said he couldn't add both drives because there was no room. I said why do you think that? He said both drives came used out of another machine and they were sitting flat/level and I would have to turn both on their sides..no actually I believe the drives sat "face down" or vertical now that I think about it. I told him AFAIK that's perfectly OK. He swore it would cause them to die quicker becaue they had always operated in one position. I told him to go ahead, I would take the blame by insisting he install the drives. A few years go by and they were working when I left. Wonder why people think that?

 

[tonyE]

A lot of SSDs do do a Read-Modify-Write instead of a pure Read, the problem is that can 'wear out' the NAND device rather quickly if things go awry software wise. There is a small residual charge injection each time an access happens, this shifts the transistor threshold a little bit each time, until eventually it fails. NOR memory also isn't infallible either. The other issue is that with an SSD if the interface circuitry on a memory chip fails you've lost the data. With an HDD it is possible to get the data back from data recovery specialists (but rather expensive!), I'd rather have more back-ups and its cheaper. I only use SSDs for programs, and store data on HDDs.

Not quite, a "pure read" is just that, a read. A relatively low voltage enable signal is applied to the gates and then a whole row is read out.. 128 bits... as a barrel register. Not much tear on the NAND cells that way.

A write, OTOH is always at the very least a "read-modify-erase-write". Over time, depending on how the data spans different lines and blocks, you may see 'write amplification' where there will be multiple reads, with aggregating modifies in DDR and then multiple writes. Depending on the storage configuration, the erases may come out later during Garbage Collection, or, in the unlikely case where you got 99% usage, you might be forced to do erases prior to the writes. That will be SLOOOOOW.

The worst wear and tear of the NAND is with random access... the least wear is with sequential. SSDs are awesome in things like data servers with large files, ie: Netflix, where you have few sequential writes and many sequential reads.

True, a read on the NAND does wear it out a little bit because setting the ENABLE line creates a voltage that adds a bit of noise into the semiconductor layers (entropy) but it is nothing like the erase.

Oh, the architecture of the NAND is not so simple, even with MLS designs. Typically you have a built in RAID-5 like block with the parity, so that even if some cells croak, you have the ability to recover the data on the read. What you will see are several attempts to read the value of the cells. Parity is always the worst case.

Now, another level... if the read takes several attempts ( like changing the discriminating voltage or having to use the parity ) over some configurable threshold count then the block(s) are put into a Garbage Collection... so that they will get erased before any data is written to them. Typically, erasing the NAND, 'anneals' it and fixes the issue. If not, then the blocks are put into the Grown Bad Block table and are no longer used. That may reduce the claimed capacity of the drive... I write "claimed' because the manufacturer always keeps some spare overhead, the more expensive the drive, ie: corporate, internal, thumb... the more spare NAND in the array.

The IF hardware on the drive... that is the MOST reliable part in the drive.... so it the DDR. I would not lose any sleep over that part.

Data recovery... well, it is possible to recover data from an SSD. If for some reason the firmware was hosed, then you can load it with a factory recovery image and get the data out. I did that once with a USB thumb drive.

Oh, yeah, I do have some insight into that stuff.. ;-)

 

[soesbeout]

Well I have at minimum copies on separate drives, same machine or no. Where I can I have 3rd copies (drives not usually in a machine) I'm also behind an OOPS! so barring a direct lightening strike I should be OK. Of course I do live in Florida, lightening strike capitol. I've had a surge protector get fried before, but it did it's job and protected the equipment. I didn't even know it was out (kept supplying power) until I noticed the indicator light was off.
I've got all the audio and pc's on OOPS! save one pc which is just on a surge protector. I intended to get an OOPS! for it as well but I keep forgetting. (Secretly I want to replace it, 4th generation Intel) Shhh don't tell the wife!

The worst problem I have is evidently me. My wife blames me when her pc goes screwy, (I don't use it) so it has to be my fault, right? Usually after deleting 562 messages in her inbox/junk folders and some other cleanup it comes around. maybe at extremes run sfc/scannow and chkdsk /f .
She gets plumb mad about it. Sigh. She just told me last weekend Outlook wasn't working and she was using the web link to our ISP. I said how long? Oh, a few months. I didn't want to bother you.

My wife has similar issues she has ten tabs open hasn't cleared her browser in a month and can't figure out where the music is coming from, and being in Floriduh also I run around unplugging it all when I hear the faintest lightning grumble.

 

[tonyE]

It is significant that, when looking into S.M.A.R.T. disk data, you see the 'Remaining drive lifetime', according to the amount of data written. You see that for the SSDs, But No for the HDDs.

In any case, you may use SSD, assuming the capacity is addequate for your amount of data, the same way you use HDD, and also have greater performance. But you have to think that the device, either SSD or HDD, can fail at any time.

Thus, the online redundancy (RAIDs) partially solves the risk problem, and you have always to think about a solid backup and contingency plan with several copies in different devices and locations of your valuable data.

Having worked for years in backup and contingency plan projects for customers, I obviously apply my learning and experience in my own house systems. I panic when I see people, friends, who have their home business data on a single laptop, hardly copying anything to USB pendrives.

Don't use RAID-5 with SSD. It will wear them out prematurely.

I got 110TB+ of NAS storage at home... all of it is RAID5 with magnetic HDDs.

I have SSDs in the host machines, the programs are in there, the data is kept in the NASs. So, once a month of so, I will backup the SSD into another one over USB. I've had an SSD fail once... so it became a matter of swapping drives. Data was happily sitting on the network.

SMART... yes, the specifications are different depending on the type of drive and even interface. PCIe, for example, is different. In some cases, the SSD will support multiple virtual drives (PCIe spec) so SMART reflects that.

BTW, when you read about large data servers providing Cloud Storage... be aware their drives are customized. The HDD/SSD manufacturer ships different feature sets depending on the customer.... when a Big Fish orders boatloads of drives, they get to call the tune and it keeps the firmware engineers working long hours. Retail drives, OTOH, are general purpose and we, consumers, have no call on it.

If a Microsoft. Dell, etc... Data Center drive fails, it results in many JIRAs back at the office.... if a consumer's drive fails, pfft... gets ignored until 100,000 consumers see the same problem.

Money talks.

 

[tonyE]

Well I have at minimum copies on separate drives, same machine or no.

The safest is to have it in physical different machines with somekind of RAID on each machine.

About 25 years ago, I had an NT tower and a Win98 laptop on a network. I had to rebuild NT... so I wiped out the drive. When I went to copy the pictures from the laptop to the tower, the laptop's drive crashed... Heads crashed.... Lost two years of pictures of my kids growing up.

Now you understand why I have 110TB over FOUR RAID5 NAS's. Copies of copies of copies.

Storage is cheap, memories and documents are invaluable.

 

[mandrix]

....and retirement money, for me, is at a premium.
What does rebuiliding the OS have to do with the drive crashing? Ah, never mind it's one of those bad things that come in multiples. I understand that completely. My entire quad collection was covered by copies on a second pc. Both drives crashed within a week of each other. Thankfully that bad luck has not occurred since.

 

[tonyE]

....and retirement money, for me, is at a premium.

Then, I recommend a:

"Mediasonic ProBox HF2-SU3S2 4 Bay 3.5” SATA HDD Enclosure – USB 3.0 & eSATA Support SATA 3 6.0Gbps HDD transfer speed".

Currently $139 over Amazon.

You can put your drives in it, make it into a RAID-5, and you can always migrate from PC to PC over the USB3 connection. Heck, they are cheap enough that you can buy a 2nd one and keep it configured, diskless and powered down.

I got two of the earliest models, with Firewire, hooked up to a Dell Latitude laptop and exported as samba mounts. I also got that one, with the USB-3 port, on the shelf, still in the box. Plus I also got two full blown stand alone NASs but those will blow your budget.

You know, for drives... look for "lots of used" drives on eBay... stuff like WDC Reds.... they will sell the 3TB and 4TB used when they update to the larger drives. Those are pretty reliable and you can get a very good deal on them.

 

[mandrix]

Don't use RAID-5 with SSD. It will wear them out prematurely.

I got 110TB+ of NAS storage at home... all of it is RAID5 with magnetic HDDs.

I have SSDs in the host machines, the programs are in there, the data is kept in the NASs. So, once a month of so, I will backup the SSD into another one over USB. I've had an SSD fail once... so it became a matter of swapping drives. Data was happily sitting on the network.

SMART... yes, the specifications are different depending on the type of drive and even interface. PCIe, for example, is different. In some cases, the SSD will support multiple virtual drives (PCIe spec) so SMART reflects that.

BTW, when you read about large data servers providing Cloud Storage... be aware their drives are customized. The HDD/SSD manufacturer ships different feature sets depending on the customer.... when a Big Fish orders boatloads of drives, they get to call the tune and it keeps the firmware engineers working long hours. Retail drives, OTOH, are general purpose and we, consumers, have no call on it.

If a Microsoft. Dell, etc... Data Center drive fails, it results in many JIRAs back at the office.... if a consumer's drive fails, pfft... gets ignored until 100,000 consumers see the same problem.

Money talks.

Not to mention, go out and buy seemingly identical drives, say 4, from different entities and you'll likely get at least two ifferent models unless you were able to hone in on a particular one.
I know with Seagate, doesn't matter if it's a Barracuda or a NAS drive, same thing with the ever changing numbers.

 

[minimumtumbleweed]

It was the youngest of my backup HDs and the one that was in charge of my "Time Machine" and about 4 days ago Disk Utility said it can't repair it!!!
I hope there is a way to transfer all the info to a new one...
I see all of the reviews on yamazon and there are always a bunch of people whose HD have had an premature death..
Sooo... Seagate, WD....Buffalo... La Cie???
Any help will be welcome...
Thanks in advance!

Seagate are complete garbage, at least in the last few years... so says the IT manager in my department, and I will concur with him, as I lost a good chunk of my thesis data when mine failed :/. I've had pretty good luck with WD, either Blue or Black (athough, I would use Red I suppose if it's in a NAS). Just make sure it's CMR and not SMR.

 

[tonyE]

Seagate are complete garbage, at least in the last few years... so says the IT manager in my department, and I will concur with him, as I lost a good chunk of my thesis data when mine failed :/. I've had pretty good luck with WD, either Blue or Black (athough, I would use Red I suppose if it's in a NAS). Just make sure it's CMR and not SMR.

The larger WDC drives are based on HGST drives. Heck, most likely they are just rebranded.

 

[mandrix]

Then, I recommend a:

"Mediasonic ProBox HF2-SU3S2 4 Bay 3.5” SATA HDD Enclosure – USB 3.0 & eSATA Support SATA 3 6.0Gbps HDD transfer speed".

Currently $139 over Amazon.

You can put your drives in it, make it into a RAID-5, and you can always migrate from PC to PC over the USB3 connection. Heck, they are cheap enough that you can buy a 2nd one and keep it configured, diskless and powered down.

I got two of the earliest models, with Firewire, hooked up to a Dell Latitude laptop and exported as samba mounts. I also got that one, with the USB-3 port, on the shelf, still in the box. Plus I also got two full blown stand alone NASs but those will blow your budget.

You know, for drives... look for "lots of used" drives on eBay... stuff like WDC Reds.... they will sell the 3TB and 4TB used when they update to the larger drives. Those are pretty reliable and you can get a very good deal on them.

Currently running 8 HDD's on one machine and 6 on the other for right now. I could fit another drive cage on the "big rig" I suppose but I'm well over 50TB on it now. I'm mostly leaning toward 10TB NAS drives right now when I can...which is not often. I've had good luck with Seagate NAS drives and if they are in warranty they say free data recovery if they crash.

I don't buy into the WD are better than Seagate drives btw. (couple posts above.) RecentlyI stated I had a Toshiba NAS drive fail early, but after checking it actually was an HGST 4TB NAS drive.
They all become boat anchors in the end.

 

[Electric Moo]

I am surprised by reports of unused spinner HD's dying. Apparently the lubricant dries up over time.

Maybe once someone invents a decent 3D printed LP record, you can use them to store data too