My website has evaporated.

[MidiMagic]

I really want to know how people get CD-4 to work reliably.

 

[jupp369]

I really want to know how people get CD-4 to work reliably.

as for me: CD-4 works reliable!
I have to sell all my CD-4 Vinyls because there is no space in my new appartment. So I recorded now around 170 songs on computer as wav 192/24bit and discoverd some problems.
My 45 year old VM35 and AT20 ARE too old, got a lot of noise, but sometimes it works good.
You are using an AT12, think it's not good enough.
See: Audio Technica AT 12 XE | Hifi-Wiki
it says, it's maximum is 28kHz, not 45kHz, what is normal for CD-4 Systems, because you need the full output on 30kHz. Now I've bought a new Nagaota JT322 (160,-) and everything works fine.

yes, I recorded them with the 30kHz carrier, edited/cleaned with Audacity and they are playing as full Quadradisc from different media-players - no more hussel with dirty records.
A tiny pice of wire in the demodulator makes recording possible.

On your site 51.81.96.224 I see only a cgi-bin directory, but have no permission to look inside. No DNS entry.
If you give me a FTP account I can send you some examples and calibration files.

 

[Owen Smith]

There are people that can. Malcolm Piper released some CD-4 transfers on Oxford Dickie's old blog, and Malcolm's transfers were fantastic. I've also heard one CD-4 transfer from OD himself (never released) and it was also excellent. No snapping pencil sounds or anything similar. Personally I had a hard time distinguishing them from 7.5 IPS Q4 transfers, the only give away was perhaps a little more noise in the silence between tracks.

 

[par4ken]

There are people that can. Malcolm Piper released some CD-4 transfers on Oxford Dickie's old blog, and Malcolm's transfers were fantastic. I've also heard one CD-4 transfer from OD himself (never released) and it was also excellent. No snapping pencil sounds or anything similar. Personally I had a hard time distinguishing them from 7.5 IPS Q4 transfers, the only give away was perhaps a little more noise in the silence between tracks.

You can get CD-4 to work but it is very finicky. I've had good luck with a moving coil (I have two the same) the one with less use works fine the other still produces a bit of that sandpaper sound on the inner grooves. The best thing is to dub them to the hard drive, with a fresh stylus.. I agree with MidiMagic that even if you get satisfactory playback one time the next playing is very likely to have problems. Can anyone play CD-4 over and over without any problem, I doubt it. So is CD-4 reliable, I don't think so.

I'm sure that OD spent a lot of time and effort to get things just right!

 

[Doug G.]

CD-4 works fine for me. It's not any different from playing regular two channel LP's for me, as I have written before.

Doug

 

[MidiMagic]

Sorry. I looked at the wrong cartridge slide. That AT-12 was a stereo cartridge. I thought the CD-4 cartridge was still in the turntable. I just looked at the arm and read the front of the cartridge. Actually, the CD-4 cartridge was in the box I keep the other cartridge slides in.

It's a Rotel 4RC-1 with Shibata Diamond Stylus.

 

[MidiMagic]

CD-4 works fine for me. It's not any different from playing regular two channel LP's for me, as I have written before.

Doug

So what's your secret to getting this to work?

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Sorry. I looked at the wrong cartridge slide. That AT-12 was a stereo cartridge. I thought the CD-4 cartridge was still in the turntable.

It's a Rotel 4RC-1 with Shibata Diamond Stylus.

So your saying Rotel also made phono carts
Edit: I'm looking on the Google Empire. Can not find anything about a Rotel 4RC-1 phono cart.

 

[Doug G.]

So what's your secret to getting this to work?

Honestly, I don't definitively know. I just followed all the rules and, at first, about 15 years ago when I decided to get back into quad, I had some of the problems you mentioned; little explosions when a scratch was encountered, a kind of artificial sound as if it was about to break into distortion, etc., but I just worked with tracking, mostly, and it all started working and even improved over the years.

My Cd-4 system is a BIC 980 or 1000, various cartridges, all well known (BTW the AT-12S is the CD-4 version), Either a Technics SH-400 or Panasonic SE-405 demodulator, Heathkit amplifiers and Advent speakers.

I actually think getting the tracking just right was the main thing as all the other aspects were fine. Of course, I keep the records clean but I keep all my records clean.

Doug

 

[B-FORMAT]

No.

I have never heard CD-4 operate correctly for very long. Every time I heard CD-4 playing, something happened to ruin the rendition.

Most of these were in audio stores. And most of the problems were from contamination of the record.

But I did set up a CD-4 system at home. My employer (a stereo store) gave me an AT-12 CD-4 pickup, a JVC CD-4 demodulator, a setup disc, and some other records to try. I added low-capacity cables to a PE-2038 changer I have and installed the cartridge. An aux input in each of the two Dynaco PAT-4 preamps was used for the discrete input.

- My first disappointment was that the setup disc had already been contaminated. It was making these snapping-pencil sounds when I first played it. I cleaned the record several times with a Discwasher III and tried again. No difference.

- Then I tried the other records. The same thing happened. I though they were new, but they had been played in the store as stereo.

- The RADAR light was on all the time. It did not flicker as if it were losing signal.

- I had an air purifier running in the room with the quad system, so the air was OK.

- I checked the cartridge installation carefully. Everything was correct. I even tried different vertical angles with the knob on the cartridge slide to rule that out.

- Someone had given me a used copy of the Elvis "Aloha Via Satellite" record. It tried that. It was even worse - a constant barrage of noises.

- Switching the demodulator to 2 ch got rid of all of the noises.

- At that time, my budget would not let me purchase many new records. I used all I had on matrix records and stereo records.

I still have everything but the other records. The store took those back to use in the showroom.

I took the CD-4 system out when I got a receiver with Pro Logic II. It has only one discrete input and I use that for the other matrix decoders.

Has anyone found a way to remove the contamination from the records? I was totally unsuccessful at even reducing the contamination to make the records somewhat listenable.

Or do you have to have an absolutely clean environment and never let anyone else touch the CD-4 stuff and never let the records be played with a stereo stylus to keep the records playable?

If CD-4 is that easy to damage, I can not consider it even remotely to be the "greatest quadraphonic media there is".

Hello there, I had a CD-4 system in the early 1970's and had perfect results all the time, almost as good as the multi-channel SACD's of today. I achieved this by using only a Shibata stylus and low loss cable in the turntable. I never ever played CD-4 LP's dry, ALWAYS played them wet using a Lenco Clean Fluid arm. This arm would track slowly across the LP just like the pickup arm and would leave a 10mm wide layer of fluid on the surface of the record through which the stylus would be in contact. This got rid of all clicks, hiss and carrier drop-outs, acting as a lubricant for both disc and stylus. I never tried this on second hand discs, only on new discs which where still perfect after many years of play. The nude Shibata stylus never needed changing either. My standard procedure was put disc on turntable, apply velvet cloth to the rotating disc to capture any dust into its pile, apply the fluid arm onto the disc, then the lower the pickup arm onto the disc. Perfect CD-4 playback every time. I know the fluid arm worked well because I did try playing a CD-4 disc dry once and noticed an increase in hiss and clicks etc. Never had any second hand discs so don't know how much improvement the wet method would yield in those circumstances. Hope this helps.

 

[par4ken]

Hello there, I had a CD-4 system in the early 1970's and had perfect results all the time, almost as good as the multi-channel SACD's of today. I achieved this by using only a Shibata stylus and low loss cable in the turntable. I never ever played CD-4 LP's dry, ALWAYS played them wet using a Lenco Clean Fluid arm. This arm would track slowly across the LP just like the pickup arm and would leave a 10mm wide layer of fluid on the surface of the record through which the stylus would be in contact. This got rid of all clicks, hiss and carrier drop-outs, acting as a lubricant for both disc and stylus. I never tried this on second hand discs, only on new discs which where still perfect after many years of play. The nude Shibata stylus never needed changing either. My standard procedure was put disc on turntable, apply velvet cloth to the rotating disc to capture any dust into its pile, apply the fluid arm onto the disc, then the lower the pickup arm onto the disc. Perfect CD-4 playback every time. I know the fluid arm worked well because I did try playing a CD-4 disc dry once and noticed an increase in hiss and clicks etc. Never had any second hand discs so don't know how much improvement the wet method would yield in those circumstances. Hope this helps.

I think that the point of all this is that it takes a lot of effort to get reliable CD-4 playback. Such a system was doomed to failure, most average people don't take care of their records or take the time to properly set up their system in the first place and never change their stylus. Sadly the average person needs a plug and play system. While a shibata stylus may not wear out as fast as an elliptical or conical it will need changing after considerable use.

 

[Doug G.]

I think that the point of all this is that it takes a lot of effort to get reliable CD-4 playback. Such a system was doomed to failure, most average people don't take care of their records or take the time to properly set up their system in the first place and never change their stylus. Sadly the average person needs a plug and play system. While a shibata stylus may not wear out as fast as an elliptical or conical it will need changing after considerable use.

This I will agree with this because the typical user is unlikely to want to do much more then just flip the ON-OFF switch and put the needle on the record. An enthusiast is what's really needed.

Doug

 

[Owen Smith]

I have a small amount of vinyl, generally Queen and Frankie Goes to Hollywood 12" singles from the 1980s. They've all either never been played, or played once on a former friend's high end Audiolab and Rega Planar 3 system (that friend moved away). My dad keeps offering to let me play them on his 1980s Toshiba slide out turntable from a midi system. It was crap to start with, and he's never changed the stylus. I keep declining telling him I don't want to risk damaging my well looked after vinyl, and he looks all hurt when I say that.

I gotta say, when we span never played Two Tribes and Relax 12" singles through Audiolab gear (8000PPA phono pre-amp, 8000Q pre, four 8000M monobloc powers for bi-amping, Monitor Audio Studio 60 speakers) with a Rega Planar 3 and high output MC cartridge (Sumiko Blue Point I believe), I have never heard vinyl sound better. If you'd told me it was 24/96 high res FLACs I would have believed you. Obviously 45rpm and generously cut tracks on 12" singles are huge advantages compared to LPs.

 

[jupp369]

You can get CD-4 to work but it is very finicky. I've had good luck with a moving coil (I have two the same) the one with less use works fine the other still produces a bit of that sandpaper sound on the inner grooves. The best thing is to dub them to the hard drive, with a fresh stylus.. I agree with MidiMagic that even if you get satisfactory playback one time the next playing is very likely to have problems. Can anyone play CD-4 over and over without any problem, I doubt it. So is CD-4 reliable, I don't think so.

I'm sure that OD spent a lot of time and effort to get things just right!

Adjusting the cardridge is not easy, my headshells are all rounded, so the only orientation to get it straight is the plug or the pencil mine. But also there I can't see if it's for 1 degree out, and 1 degree left or right makes a lot. I only can hear it.
When I bought my new Nagaota I adjusted everyting perfectly - but got sandpaper. I tried a lot, and accidentally I mountet the cartridge 2mm to low and had a clear sound at once. 2mm shorter than the horizontal tonearm should be. I tried also 1mm and 3mm, resulting in distortions.
Guess you are only micrometer away from the good sound - believe in your ears instead your eyes.

We assume a perfect cartridge, but nobody mention the tolerances in production.

 

[MidiMagic]

Adjusting the cardridge is not easy, my headshells are all rounded, so the only orientation to get it straight is the plug or the pencil mine. But also there I can't see if it's for 1 degree out, and 1 degree left or right makes a lot. I only can hear it.
When I bought my new Nagaota I adjusted everyting perfectly - but got sandpaper. I tried a lot, and accidentally I mountet the cartridge 2mm to low and had a clear sound at once. 2mm shorter than the horizontal tonearm should be. I tried also 1mm and 3mm, resulting in distortions.
Guess you are only micrometer away from the good sound - believe in your ears instead your eyes.

We assume a perfect cartridge, but nobody mention the tolerances in production.

If this is true, then CD-4 could not work with a record changer. Changes in stack height would do the same thing.

I always use a mirror to check the cartridge mounting for inadvertent rotation.

I found one supposedly audiophile JVC record changer that could never work correctly with CD-4 because the horizontal pivot axis was not parallel to the offset angle of the cartridge. The tilt of the cartridge changed with the stack height.

With my CD-4 setup. I never had sandpaper. I had groove contamination that made tiny clicks in stereo, but snapping sounds in CD-4. I was unable to remove the contamination.

I now have partial access to CPanel. But I can't count on it.

 

[jupp369]

If this is true, then CD-4 could not work with a record changer. Changes in stack height would do the same thing.....

A mirror is a good helping tool, but trust your ears! I had to put 0,2mm below on one of my heads on one side to get em working good. The mirror said: bad, but my ears say OK.
As I said, Simply tolerances in production...believe in your ears!
tiny clicks: I had them also, most at the inner tracks 5 to 6, but vanished with the horizontal alignment (in my case 2 mm lower) and maybe a tiny turn of the head to outside (1/2 degree, can you measure the 1/2 degree? Not me).

record changer???? I saw it at my parents, 10 singles on a stack. Would YOU do it with your Valuable CD-4 ???

What do you mean with "CPanel"? Sorry, I'm an outsider...

 

[MidiMagic]

A mirror is a good helping tool, but trust your ears! I had to put 0,2mm below on one of my heads on one side to get em working good. The mirror said: bad, but my ears say OK.
As I said, Simply tolerances in production...believe in your ears!
tiny clicks: I had them also, most at the inner tracks 5 to 6, but vanished with the horizontal alignment (in my case 2 mm lower) and maybe a tiny turn of the head to outside (1/2 degree, can you measure the 1/2 degree? Not me).

record changer???? I saw it at my parents, 10 singles on a stack. Would YOU do it with your Valuable CD-4 ???

What do you mean with "CPanel"? Sorry, I'm an outsider...

The clicks I got on my tests were from groove contamination. Adjusting the cartridge alignment would not change that. They because loud snaps with the demodulator on.

If CD-4 will not work with a record changer, then why did both JVC and Panasonic sell CD-4 record changers with demodulators. I forgot that I have a used Panasonic changer with a built-in demodulator. But someone changed the cartridge before I got it - it is not for CD-4. I also did not get the correct spindle for it, so right now it can't play records. This is a photo of a similar model. Mine has a counterweight. The demodulator controls are on a thin panel to the right of the tonearm.

Using the CD-4 record on a record changer should not damage the CD-4 on the record. It might cause the demodulator to not work in parts of the stack if CD-4 is that finicky about vertical angle.

Not working with record changers is another reason why I opposed CD-4.

The original topic was my website failing. CPanel is the access app to the website for uploading pages. My web pages have now become visible to everyone - including me., but CPanel is still having trouble.

 

[MidiMagic]

I now have my website back 100%. They said that something clobbered the software.