*NOT* the SM V3 teaser thread - Inspired By Comments

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Owen Smith

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Apple's alternative format is DisplayPort, they were one of the early adopters. They then tried to morph that into ThunderBolt which puts PCI Express on the same connector for some uses, but that doesn't seem to have got much traction.

The only other game in town appears to be video over USB-C. This is gaining traction with hybrid home/office working where you connect your laptop via a single USB-C to a fancy connectivity monitor. That USB-C provides power to the laptop, video to the monitor, USB to a hub in the monitor, and ethernet via an RJ45 on the monitor (no idea if that's a USB ethernet dongle on the hub or some separate scheme). I have no idea what the audio options are for video over USB-C.
 

armyjazzer

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Early on I / we all hoped that sales through top end surround sound nuts like you great guys in QQ would have a multiplication effect and others from the general community would take your lead and buy our stuff. That really has not happened and it seems you guys tend to keep your little stash of special gear secret!
Actually the opposite is true, I tell all my friends about the S.M. and have demoed it to everyone I can who comes over to hear my system. And all of them love the sound when I play them a few good sample CD's through it.

Unfortunately most people who hear it are not willing to shell out the money to purchase all the analog equipment to setup a system. A lot of them really don't even have a decent stereo, let alone the money need to setup analog 4 channel.

Where I do see a possible potential market for expansion ( for hardware S.M. ) is with people who have setup home theatre equipment, and already invested the money in MC sound. They already have everything they need to make it work with one exception, they need to be able to connect the S.M. to their receivers, but they don't have analog inputs for 5.1 anymore. I haven't tried it, since we don't have a way to connect it, but the S.M. might even sound good on the lowly MC soundbars that have HDMI input.

Another thing I think that is hurting sales is you have to have inventory in stock for people to make the purchase when they are ready to buy. Most people aren't going to wait for months on end for another run or pre-pay and wait forever for product to materialize. They will move on to something else that has their attention and spend their money on that. Also it helps if your product can be found in normal sales channels where people buy. If someone buys on Amazon, that is the first place they are going to search for your product when they hear about it. Since they are not familiar with Involve, they will feel comfortable making the purchase on Amazon.

There are some "niche" audio products that are doing really well and have really seen growth in sales. Schiit audio is great example. I have bought several of their products and they have a high customer satisfaction and loyalty. Maybe a partnership with a company like that would be useful, since they manufacture a lot of their components. The partner would handle manufacturing and distribution for you, and be able to do larger runs so that you would have enough inventory to eliminate wait times for product. This would give you more time to focus on product development, design, and possibly getting your encoder into receivers, etc.

Another idea ( maybe the best one I have ) would be if you could license ( or partner with ) the encoder to be installed in a Blu ray/DVD/CD player so that it would have an option to play a CD with Involve S.M. turned on and send it out the HDMI? The encoder option could be enabled (button on player and/or remote) on any stereo audio source such as a DVD with stereo only, or even files played back from a USB drive attached to the player. They have already paid the license fee for HDMI. If they are not interested in adding S.M. technology to their player, maybe they would manufacture a player for you to sell. You could reduce the cost by not even having a disc drive ( BR/DVD/CD ). It could just be a media player with USB ports that you connect a HD/USB drive and play media directly from the drive. Something like a MIbox or network file player combined with S.M. Play a stereo audio file and convert to Quad, 5.1, etc using S.M. builti in. All of the media players and Blu ray players out there have HDMI. It seems you could find one that would be able to build a S.M. player for you to sell alone or as a partnership.

As alway, I love the Surround Master and wish Involve the best of luck with the future of the product, whatever that may be.
 

ar surround

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Another idea ( maybe the best one I have ) would be if you could license ( or partner with ) the encoder to be installed in a Blu ray/DVD/CD player so that it would have an option to play a CD with Involve S.M. turned on and send it out the HDMI? The encoder option could be enabled (button on player and/or remote) on any stereo audio source such as a DVD with stereo only, or even files played back from a USB drive attached to the player. They have already paid the license fee for HDMI. If they are not interested in adding S.M. technology to their player, maybe they would manufacture a player for you to sell. You could reduce the cost by not even having a disc drive ( BR/DVD/CD ). It could just be a media player with USB ports that you connect a HD/USB drive and play media directly from the drive. Something like a MIbox or network file player combined with S.M. Play a stereo audio file and convert to Quad, 5.1, etc using S.M. builti in. All of the media players and Blu ray players out there have HDMI. It seems you could find one that would be able to build a S.M. player for you to sell alone or as a partnership.
Can you imagine an Oppo 203 or 205 with an Involve decoder outputting via analog outs or HDMI? Wow!
 

gene_stl

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The issue of people "Prepaying and waiting for deliverey" is nicely demonstrated over at Audio Science Review. There is a guy in Prague who is building what appears to be the best or one of the best multi channel A/D converter. This is the Okto Research line. They are not taking orders right now. They are accused of not answering emails which I am sure is true. But it does not appear to be because of lack of integrity. It looks like they are overwhelmed by their own success. You can search ASR and read all about it if you are interested.
 

armyjazzer

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The issue of people "Prepaying and waiting for deliverey" is nicely demonstrated over at Audio Science Review. There is a guy in Prague who is building what appears to be the best or one of the best multi channel A/D converter. This is the Okto Research line. They are not taking orders right now. They are accused of not answering emails which I am sure is true. But it does not appear to be because of lack of integrity. It looks like they are overwhelmed by their own success. You can search ASR and read all about it if you are interested.
I get that some companies are very small and can't keep up with orders. I also get that the pandemic has changed production ability, I prepaid for 2 couches in January and the factory says they will finally build them this month and deliver them in October! I am also in no way saying or implying anything about anyones integrity, just human nature. Some will not wait, and some will not prepay and wait, so some percentage of those will be lost sales. I am merely suggesting that Involve might find ways to increase their market, production, and hopefully their profit/bottom line. It is in our interest that they succeed and have a viable product for us to purchase.

I for one will have to be really desperate before I will prepay for furniture again and wait a year for delivery, but never say never, that may be the new norm. I hope not. I do know that if we had walked into another store and found something we liked, we would have not placed the order and that would have been a lost sale for the company we purchased from. And some audio/hi fi/surround sound enthusiasts may make the decision to upgrade their receiver/speakers/amps/TV/etc. instead of buying a S.M. if the S.M. was not available to purchase when they are interested. Just think about how many audio products, not counting how many other household needs and products there are to spend money on each month. As they used to say, "make hay while the sun shines". But I am an old fart so my opinions are probably out of touch with reality.
 

gene_stl

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I don't think anyone is worried about the integrity of Involve (nor of the guy in Prague who probably just doesn't have enough help and probably gets too many emails from excitable audiophiles.)

I always hesitate to prepay anything because on my local teewee station they always show stories about crooked home improvement contractors who take peoples money and disappear. That is why god mad escrows.
 

armyjazzer

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Sorry if this has already been discussed, but a PC software encoding option that could be installed on Windows 10 and played out the HDMI might be another option. But I doubt it would be a very good option and riddled with other issues. Windows and other updates breaking it, software hacking of Involve software, support issues, licensing and keys, etc. Would probably end up being a nightmare for Involve unless they have expertise in this area or could work with a software company.

I would probably buy it though if it was available and worked. I would love to have a USB drive with audio files that I could play on the PC with S.M. software, and output HDMI to receiver. I currently have to send analog audio from the PC to the surround master now using A Schiit modius, and since my receiver is needing replaced, I no longer have analog inputs for the S.M. out. It also creates unnecessary AD/DA conversions in the process. Software would also be nice if it could be used with streaming music services.
 

kfbkfb

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A lot of them really don't even have a decent stereo, let alone the money need to setup analog 4 channel.
Maybe make some hard copies of the speaker connection diagram for the passive speaker matrix decoding system DynaQuad and give it to your friends who were impressed with surround sound, if they have 1 extra speaker around, it's a way to get a form of surround sound and maybe set them on the road to talking up surround sound.


Kirk Bayne
 

chucky3042

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Maybe make some hard copies of the speaker connection diagram for the passive speaker matrix decoding system DynaQuad and give it to your friends who were impressed with surround sound, if they have 1 extra speaker around, it's a way to get a form of surround sound and maybe set them on the road to talking up surround sound.


Kirk Bayne
The good ol Halfer Dynaco left minus right subtraction trick got me started in the mid 70's. I still kinda like it!
 

kfbkfb

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I set up a DynaQuad home theater system late last year:
~40 year old Polk speakers for L,R
~20 year old Polk computer speakers (in series) for S
~30 year old Pioneer stereo receiver (+ Blu-ray & VHS)

The CB to CF pan on the QS encoded Ovation records Vector 4 test/demo LP moves smoothly from CB to about 2/3 of the way to CF, then jumps to CF (probably due to the different tonal characteristics of the speakers).


Kirk Bayne
 

MidiMagic

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I set up a DynaQuad home theater system late last year:
~40 year old Polk speakers for L,R
~20 year old Polk computer speakers (in series) for S
~30 year old Pioneer stereo receiver (+ Blu-ray & VHS)

The CB to CF pan on the QS encoded Ovation records Vector 4 test/demo LP moves smoothly from CB to about 2/3 of the way to CF, then jumps to CF (probably due to the different tonal characteristics of the speakers).


Kirk Bayne
Or is it the cogging effect of human hearing?
 

kfbkfb

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They're Polk Monitor 4s sitting on the floor and Polk computer speakers (came w/HP xt953 PC) at ear level, to my right, on a bookshelf (far from optimum).

The smoothest surround sound pan I ever heard was at a THX theater (WestGlen in KS):

It was one of the Star Wars movies, the sound of the Millennium Falcon moving around on the screen came out into the theater (I was 2/3rds of the way back in the theater, by choice).


Kirk Bayne
 
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kfbkfb

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(Moved from SM V3 teaser thread discussion about QS and surround sound synthesis)

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/qs-1.shtml
^^^
...obviating the need for 4 channel equipment and program sources per se because, as distinguished audio technicians have attested, the QS-1 actually surpasses any 4 channel devices yet developed in terms of sound field brilliance.


IMHO, the description is a little OTT.


Kirk Bayne
 

par4ken

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(Moved from SM V3 teaser thread discussion about QS and surround sound synthesis)

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/qs-1.shtml
^^^
...obviating the need for 4 channel equipment and program sources per se because, as distinguished audio technicians have attested, the QS-1 actually surpasses any 4 channel devices yet developed in terms of sound field brilliance.


IMHO, the description is a little OTT.


Kirk Bayne
Over the top by today's standards but in 1970 that description would of been accurate.
 

Soundfield

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Over the top by today's standards but in 1970 that description would of been accurate.
But what does the strange wibbly-wobbly "phase modulation" actually sound like? There's a bunch of pseudo-science in the Sansui literature that doesn't stack up and I fail to see how the random, uncorrelated variation of rear channel phase at a slow fixed arbitrary rate can possibly meet the claim that 'direct and indirect sound waves are fused to precisely duplicate the way they would be heard in concert hall surroundings'.
 

par4ken

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But what does the strange wibbly-wobbly "phase modulation" actually sound like? There's a bunch of pseudo-science in the Sansui literature that doesn't stack up and I fail to see how the random, uncorrelated variation of rear channel phase at a slow fixed arbitrary rate can possibly meet the claim that 'direct and indirect sound waves are fused to precisely duplicate the way they would be heard in concert hall surroundings'.
It sounds very nice in a small room, in a larger room the effect is virtually unnoticeable. Yes their claim is based more on wishful thinking than actual fact, I found it fascinating though when first reading about it in the early/mid seventies.
 

chucky3042

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Re Healthcare......comments by MidiMagic

And it is still not sustainable. It costs more than tax money can supply.

There is NO WAY that people can get affordable healthcare from government. It would require a health insurance fairy.

The healthcare system must be changed, and insurance coverage is the enemy that drives up the costs.

These things must be done:

- Prohibit large patent and copyright royalties on anything medical. It's "pillage".
- Prohibit the monopoly power given to medical companies for 3 years by government.
- Prohibit coverage values for given procedures. These cause all companies to increase prices to the coverage value.
- Prohibit price-fixing doctor cartels. Doctors should be in competition, not collusion.
- Prohibit hospitals charging rent for the rooms.
- More emphasis on health savings accounts and private funding.
- Prohibit using collection agencies to collect unpaid bills.

Current health care pricing is like the pricing on these collectible recordings box sets: grab all you can get.
 

chucky3042

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Dear All

Us diggers down under in the socialist workers heaven of Australia have had universal tax paid comprehensive health care since 1974 when the then health minister Bill Hayden fought tooth and nail with the medical industry, AMA, the nasty dirty digger Murdock press, the conservative opposition and the big health companies for at least a year. But finally they introduced the "Medibank" system that offered universal health care for all. It was and remains universally loved but unfortunately with various conservative governments, weak labour governments and erosion and fear campaigns by the private health insurers been badly eroded to the current mad mix of public and private health care we have today.

Today you can choose to be uninsured and just use the "Medicare" system that covers you for all major events but for non emergency stuff (lets say knee replacement) you might have to wait a year or two and not be subsidized for non scheduled procedures such as the partial knee replacement (This is very dear to me at the moment!). So to get your fancy partial knee replacement you either take up private insurance for a year or two and when the job gets done you will get hopefully 50% back from $25 K (not f#%&ing worth it). Or you direct pay the whole thing (was $16 K 3 years ago- bastards).

The BIG disadvantage of the private medical system aside from the greedy profits the insurance bastards, filth rich specialists get is that the medical records are the property of the private practitioner, so if you need to go legal for a malpractice case and need their paperwork log/ evidence- you are stuffed. In the public system at least the medical records are available via the "freedom of information" act assuming they do not decide to "lose it". I faced this 35 years ago with a 9 year court case regarding the death of my twins due to medical negligence.....I won but it was a battle.

So I have been happily uninsured for 35 years, for any serious stuff like the 3 heart ablations I have had (blame genetics, too much running, weightlifting and being too tall) it was a walk in , get the job done and walk out. Really pleasant! With the private twin deaths we were getting all sorts of payment invoices with the dead twins name on it for a year, eventually I told them all to piss off.

Even though our system is a stupid mess it in terms of absolute medical quality is around the same as USA and UK but per capita or cost is around 45% of the USA

see List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia

In 2019 Australia was $5187, the USA was $11,072

It would be better but the PRIVATE practitioners get a rebate form the government but they charge what they feel like ABOVE the rebated worth of their consultation. For example I was due to get a nice shinny new partial left knee next week to match my right one, I had an over the bloody phone pre op consultation with the quack attending to such matters a few night ago, the bitch charged me $325 for a 15 minute chat and I will get around $110 back from medicare......the greedy bitch just bumped up the price to what the market will take. Back when we had the original Medibank all such consultations had a fixed prescribed cost and this drastically reduced medical costs and a few doctors were not driving as flash cars with expensive beach houses! You might detect, that I am a bad patient. Oh the operation has now been delayed by who knows due to our stupid state governments stopping elective procedures due to the anticipated covid surge- even though knee people do not do covid stuff, morons. I am currently close to needing a walking stick and my left leg is around 2 cm shorter than my right though wear bone on bone stuff. Oh, I will pay personally the $25 K for the knee swap.

In the end there is no free ride on anything in the world unless you are born royal. We either pay by taxes, personally direct or by insurance. But remember the insurance companies are not charities and they add cost. Through the public system if efficiently administered at least the costs can be taken out of taxes theoretically on an ability to pay basis and i am happy for my taxes to pay for an operation of procedure that a poorer person than me cannot afford- really happy as I was below butt poor as a kid and I remember what its like.

I have had 3 operations paid fully by myself- 2 X bicep reattachment (weightlifting) and my right shinny knee, costing so far $38,000 total. I would over 35 years been much worse off than that if I was insured. I have had 3 heart procedures and a zapping (all good now) paid by my taxes and MANY MANY trips to emergency totaling 24 broken bones (racer bike riding).
 
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kfbkfb

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One thing about USA healthcare...

The Russians launched Sputnik into Space in 1957 and Yuri Gagarin in 1961.

Shortly after, President Kennedy announced the USA would send a man to the Moon (and return safely) before the end of the 1960s decade (the USA had to be number one).

AFAIK, 35 other Countries have universal healthcare, yet the USA seems to give up on changing to a system of universal healthcare (could do what works in the 35 other Countries and not do what doesn't work), I think it's unusual that the USA seems to have just given up and let other Countries do better on healthcare.


Kirk Bayne
 
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