Off-topic Atmos discussion from Free Hand thread

[Ranasakawa]

I preordered this on amazon and it still hasn't shipped. Exactly the same thing happened with the Jethro Tull A box. It seems Australia customers are left behind yet again

 

[halbroome]

Well, Atmos really does take some time to wrap your head around. I'd say both your comments are correct. But to my ears, it's mostly elevating the entire mix. For example, with this title, I'm hearing what sounds like a tamborine (may not be a tamborine, could be some other sound coming from drumset) and I totally swear that it's coming from halfway between my right front and right height. So much so, that I figured it must be isolated to my height. Nope, as I inched closer to the front, it then clearly came from right front. I don't know how this can be, but that's the "illusion" I keep finding. Also, yes, there are what I believe are discreet elements coming from heights.

It's almost as if the heights are used to "augment" the overall mix. Hardly ever do I notice super discreet parts isolated to heights, meaning any of the main parts (lead vocal, lead guitar, bass guitar or keyboards, drums) It's more, very select sounds...and those sounds seem to be what make the soundfield sort of disappear and become much larger than your speakers.

By the way, I'd never heard Free Hand prior to this, but it's just super. These guys are really one of a kind to my ears.

The Kraftwerk Atmos mix _definitely_ has the heights discreet -- I remember going up to them to check.

But it is a rare mix among other Atmos recordings I have, where GOS is generally correct (ABBEY ROAD, for example).

Meanwhile, impatiently waiting for my FREEHAND to arrive. . . .

 

[CINERAMAX]

Snarking? Whistleblowing and EDUCATING! I am a student here of all things multichannel but when it comes to atmos I am the rogue evangelist of doing atmos in a very specific way that results in total overhead holography. It follows a very specific topography unique to the room where atmos was invented.

I am very serious about the positioning and sizing of Atmos tops. Having spent the last 8 years devoted to that subject matter deploying millions of system dollars in this quest. I Already gave the surround channel implementation a 10 rating it is the tops from all SW's mixes to date that I find lack polishing. Using the NL3 top's aesthetic of boring ambiance is a copout and wrong for popular music.

Compare the sizing and spacing of SW's studio tops speakers to the way the latest research shows should be done.

guess what? if he had bigger speakers on top, at 35-degree separation azimuth, and followed these angles in the median plane, would exploit the physics of overhead sound resolvability better and thus he would be hearing a lot more clearly what is going on overhead and by doing so we would too, those overhead signals would be more robust and carry richer interaural cues for better phantom images overhead, as long as he keeps those speakers so far apart and uses 5 inch woofers, he is fighting uphill against physics..

 

[AYanguas]

I gave it a seven for weak heights usage, you guys need to up your spatial audio standards, yes the bed channel mix is a 10, but mixing in atmos SW is a newbie on placing objects with good interaural cues on the tops.... 50% of the TIDAL club music are reference tops implementations.

I'm interested. Could you tell us your favourite Atmos titles that make good use of interaural cues with the tops?

 

[CINERAMAX]

I have many of these as part of a club music playlist, I can dig it up and share.nBe back.

 

[himey]

Snarking? Whistleblowing and EDUCATING! I am a student here of all things multichannel but when it comes to atmos I am the rogue evangelist of doing atmos in a very specific way that results in total overhead holography. It follows a very specific topography unique to the room where atmos was invented.

View attachment 68716
I am very serious about the positioning and sizing of Atmos tops. Having spent the last 8 years devoted to that subject matter deploying millions of system dollars in this quest. I Already gave the surround channel implementation a 10 rating it is the tops from all SW's mixes to date that I find lack polishing. Using the NL3 top's aesthetic of boring ambiance is a copout and wrong for popular music.

Compare the sizing and spacing of SW's studio tops speakers to the way the latest research shows should be done.

guess what? if he had bigger speakers on top, at 35-degree separation azimuth, and followed these angles in the median plane, would exploit the physics of overhead sound resolvability better and thus he would be hearing a lot more clearly what is going on overhead and by doing so we would too, those overhead signals would be more robust and carry richer interaural cues for better phantom images overhead, as long as he keeps those speakers so far apart and uses 5 inch woofers, he is fighting uphill against physics..

Or maybe it was his artistic choice considering it was a title from the 70s. Do you consider TFB lacking in the tops too?

 

[CINERAMAX]

I'm interested. Could you tell us your favourite Atmos titles that make good use of interaural cues with the tops?

There is plenty of tops usage in this club mix, I suggest forum members interested in recreating a holographic tops canvas with 4 robust ceiling speakers try it. It is the least understood, harder to achieve most titillating epicurean musico-immersive experience.

Of course, I could see SW responding to my VERY CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to his treatments of atmos tops in all his releases with THE STUPIDLY INSUFFICIENT NL3 ambient treatment:

He could tell me that I know nothing about multichannel remastering, that is very easy in club music to individually route midi samples to objects, etc. Yes it a lot easier why perhaps TIDAL is the most indispensable component of IMMERSIVE audio home recreation, they regularly crank out VERY TOPSMMERSIVE club music , A TREASURE TROVE of it, and if one has 8-inch woofers or larger (the above are 12"), and if one follows the strict angle discussed above it adds a layer of quadraphony on top of the bed channels, the correct way to place sounds OVERHEAD.

I would tell him that yes it is more difficult but no different than what a few film mixers have achieved remixing legacy 5.1/7.1 to ATMOS, the 3% that got the overhead recreation down pat use techniques dubbed Cut and Paste where they extract the stem out of the bed channels and paste it into an object that then gets the overhead panning and object size treatment. n addition Fraunhofer institute has research that locks on to a single instrument in a song and extracts it as an object. But before he goes there Steve needs to do the three basic due dilligences of Topsmmersion (to compensate for fighting the extremely difficult laws of Overhead Physics on sound localization Resolvability - 1961 Damaske and Wagener) that I listed in my Second post, bigger woofers, with no bass managing to floor subs..

(tested-bass management of tops to floor level side subs sounds discombobulated you need big woofers overhead).

He needs to place the tops speakers closer together, he can use Tony Grimani's guideline of aligning them midpoint from the LR and The Center channel, which will reveal a gazillion more interaural cues from overhead that otherwise get buried in the walls the way his speakers are hugging the sidewalls, and finally to achieve pinpoint holographic images EVERYONE NEEDS TO IGNORE THE ATMOS GUIDELINES, go by the 1961 research of DAMASKE AND WAGENER on the pinpointing perception of overhead sounds in the median plane, TRUST ME IT WORKS,

If someone has access to SW point him to this post, I am sure he would be intrigued by this 12 million dollar research project in the new horizon of ATMOS Topsmmersion.

 

[AYanguas]

There is plenty of tops usage in this club mix, I suggest forum members interested in recreating a holographic tops canvas with 4 robust ceiling speakers try it. It is the least understood, harder to achieve titillating epicurean musical immersive experience.

Thank you.

I have already listened from TIDAL Atmos many of those tracks. Specially Booka Shade, London Elektricity and Rodriguez Jr./Liset Alea. (Kraftwrek already from Blu-Ray)

I will try with that tracks again and I will pay attention to the content and sound from the ceiling speakers.

BTW, I have In-ceiling speakers B&W CCM 683 with tweeter oriented to the MLP. Do you think they are "robust" enough?

Edited: Sorry for the Off-topic in this thread

 

[CINERAMAX]

with 8 inch woofers that go down to 35 I think you are good! I also suggest you get a couple of these they can be fed speaker level or line level. That way you are not fooled by elevated cues from the bed channel.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...08921216-08971-UneMJZVf&device=c&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[himey]

with 8 inch woofers that go down to 35 I think you are good!

We definitely agree in our dislike of bass management!

Thankfully you acknowledge the difference in putting electronic sounds in the tops vs the painstakingly task of taking old multi-tracks of (actual) instruments, and spreading them around in a cohesive fashion.

 

[CINERAMAX]

We definitely agree in our dislike of bass management!

Thankfully you acknowledge the difference in putting electronic sounds in the tops vs the painstakingly task of taking old multi-tracks of (actual) instruments, and spreading them around in a cohesive fashion.

Understood and he is the master of the latter, why I am so optimistic that he would take on the challenge to find what techniques have worked in a handful of film atmos remixes to recreate robust tops, but he is fighting an uphill battle against topsmmersive pinpoint resolvability overhead with the tops so small, so far apart and perhaps not in the 40-60-90-135 degrees median angles, if you deviate from those angles it is impossible to resolve 8 speakers overhead, the individual pairs merge together, it is a tall order but I can't think of a better engineer to take on the Quest.

 

[Paul Emery]

Snarking? Whistleblowing and EDUCATING! I am a student here of all things multichannel but when it comes to atmos I am the rogue evangelist of doing atmos in a very specific way that results in total overhead holography. It follows a very specific topography unique to the room where atmos was invented.

View attachment 68716
I am very serious about the positioning and sizing of Atmos tops. Having spent the last 8 years devoted to that subject matter deploying millions of system dollars in this quest. I Already gave the surround channel implementation a 10 rating it is the tops from all SW's mixes to date that I find lack polishing. Using the NL3 top's aesthetic of boring ambiance is a copout and wrong for popular music.

Compare the sizing and spacing of SW's studio tops speakers to the way the latest research shows should be done.

guess what? if he had bigger speakers on top, at 35-degree separation azimuth, and followed these angles in the median plane, would exploit the physics of overhead sound resolvability better and thus he would be hearing a lot more clearly what is going on overhead and by doing so we would too, those overhead signals would be more robust and carry richer interaural cues for better phantom images overhead, as long as he keeps those speakers so far apart and uses 5 inch woofers, he is fighting uphill against physics..

It's over my head.

 

[AYanguas]

with 8 inch woofers that go down to 35 I think you are good! I also suggest you get a couple of these they can be fed speaker level or line level. That way you are not fooled by elevated cues from the bed channel.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...08921216-08971-UneMJZVf&device=c&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thank you for the link.

Actually, I already built my own "13 Channel VUMeter". I use it to compare the amount of content level going to the surrounds and to the heights/tops/wides. And also for fun. Very useful.

Here you can see how it looks: The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Edited: BTW, at the end of that post of my link, after all pictures, you can see/hear a video of the working gadget with Booka Shade with good enough amount on the Heights, actually Atmos Tops Speakers selected.

 

[CINERAMAX]

Thank you for the link.

Actually, I already built my own "13 Channel VUMeter". I use it to compare the amount of content level going to the surrounds and to the heights/tops/wides. And also for fun. Very useful.

Here you can see how it looks: The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Edited: BTW, at the end of that post of my link, after all pictures, you can see/hear a video of the working gadget with Booka Shade with good enough amount on the Heights, actually Atmos Tops Speakers selected.

Muy bien construido, felicidades! His vu meter box is nicer than mine. I will post a youtube in a more appropriate thread. The point I am trying to make is that if we are going to start rating Atmos mixes it is beneficial to use vu meters for the tops at least.

 

[CINERAMAX]

It's over my head.

If you are joking, it is a great Touche punchline.

 

[AYanguas]

....
The point I am trying to make is that if we are going to start rating Atmos mixes it is beneficial to use vu meters for the tops at least.

That was why I looked for such a VUMeter box. You can feel more or less the immersion, but you are not sure if this or that speaker is receiving content. You can put the ear next to the speaker, but you cannot do it simultaneously in all speakers or climb to a ladder.

With my VUmeter I can see (feel) the panning sounds as the LEDs columns fluctuate. And confirm many other things like the Auro-3D (Auromatic) replicating the "patterns" from floor speakers to the heights in 5.1, or DTS decoder sending same content (5.1) to the Surround and Surround backs pairs.

Yes, it is a damn technical hobby, apart from listening to the music.

 

[kap'n krunch]

Thank you for the link.

Actually, I already built my own "13 Channel VUMeter". I use it to compare the amount of content level going to the surrounds and to the heights/tops/wides. And also for fun. Very useful.

Here you can see how it looks: The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Edited: BTW, at the end of that post of my link, after all pictures, you can see/hear a video of the working gadget with Booka Shade with good enough amount on the Heights, actually Atmos Tops Speakers selected.

¡Alucinante!
Me encanta que pongas a Charo primero, eres un caballero.
Saludos desde “Luisiana”.

 

[MagnumX]

If you're going to put all your speakers jammed up against each other on the ceiling, why even bother with more than one pair? How is it supposed to merge with the lower layer if you start too high?

Personally 30/110/150 works fine here (It's really (0/.5/1.0), EXACTLY as Dolby's renderer expects. The seating is what isn't centered in the room (rows at 40%, 60% and 80% into the room) since there are more room modes there. I can easily hear sounds image across the entire ceiling (Yello's Point album and Booka Shade's Dear Future Self album were unbelievable sounding). Now sure if you have a Trinnov, add speakers at 25% and 75% into the room and have a nice small angular separation, but short changing one are for another isn't a great solution IMO.

You can't image edge to edge on the ceiling by starting 35% into the room. You're throwing away more than half the ceiling away (even if it steered towards the front or back wall, phantom images would drop in height on the z-axis). Auro-3D had the right idea and a much easier install for most rooms to boot.

Maybe that Tony Grimani guy should stay in the 1960s.

(Putting on helmet for attack by know-it-all Ego guy)