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Oh no - Foobar problems

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HomerJAU

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I’m sure this has come up previously, and I’ve seen the same message after a Foobar or SACD plug-in upgrade

This is just a once off warning message the first time you do a DSD to PCM conversion. Just ignore it.

Some developer in the Foobar world wants you to know DSD can’t be converted to PCM losslessly. 24 bit 88.2kHz is close enough for me and you though.

If you’re worried about DSD to PCM then playback your SACDs via DSD direct to an amp.
 

sukothai

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I agree that DSD to PCM is inherently lossy, but not at any level our ears can detect. There's discussion out there and Saracon is considered the closest you can get to a lossless conversion, but it is an expensive tool. Just click on the "Do not ask again" button and it will stop bothering you.
 

ssully

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I thought it was if you use 32:1 decimation and convert to 32 bit floating point at 88.2k sample rate.
The output can be anywhere between -6db and +6db, so you need to convert to floating point first so you don't lose that 1 bit of resolution (with -6) or clip (with +6).
Normalize the level with respect to 0db and then you can put it in 24 bit fixed point format.

(Or you can just click the button to lower it 6db by default to be simple and safe. Losing 1 bit precision with 24 bit program isn't that big a deal. Certainly not vs the risk of digital clipping which mutilates audio!)

It is certainly audibly lossless if you do that (or even less than that). But speaking purely technically, it cannot be absolutely lossless if you are going from a unibit format with a sample rate in megaherz to a multibit format with a kiloherz SR. You 'lose' precious, precious frequencies tens of thousands of Hz beyond any organism's range of hearing. (All of which are filtered out in a properly functioning SACD player; and not to mention that DSD-to-PCM conversion, to 44.1 or multiples of that, is actually what DSD was originally designed for. But anyway. It is a silly format.)

I wouldn't worry too much about hearing that lost/gained 1 bit of resolution either. I've only ever seen a single SACD rip 'clip' with native conversion settings (the infamous 'Thriller' SACD, and even there the clipping is rare) . Every other one I've done can stand some amplitude boost.
 

ssully

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Btw I would not necessarily lower LFE by 10 db when converting SACD to PCM.

In a perfect world
-- all DD/DTS/DVDA LFE (as per spec) discs would be 'printed' with -10dB LFE offset relative to other channels, and thus to properly play back, a +10dB boost will be added to the LFE somewhere down the line.
-- all SACD (as per Scarlet Book spec) discs would be printed with NO LFE offset, and thus to properly play back, no boost is applied later.

(But it was already an imperfect world when we *weren't* ripping SACDs. Potential incorrect LFE levels when using analog vs digital connection, decoded versus nondecoded, SACD vs PCM......remember the LFE Bug? For an overview of the potential pitfalls, see https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/748147-lfe-subwoofers-interconnects-explained.html)

In a perfect world, where SACD LFE was always printed 'as is', and because AVRs tend to 'expect' PCM LFE to be down by 10dB and thus apply +10dB to LFE (the legacy of DD/DTS), we would always be right to *lower* LFE of SACDs when converting to PCM. (The AVR after all has no idea what the source of the PCM data was.)

But in the real world, anecdotal evidence suggests that not all SACDs have been mastered according to spec. Sometimes their LFE was already 'printed' low, like a DD/DTS/DVDA disc. In this case we would not want to lower it yet again.

see near the bottom of this page, about the Pentatone SACD calibration disc:

The question is, how can we determine what the 'right' LFE level is?
One possible way is to compare an SACD rip, with no LFE boost or cut applied during file creation, to a ripped DD or DTS (or maybe DVDA) release of the same mix. This presumes that the LFE level on those is 'correct'. I've done some of this and the data are...messy. It really requires a deep dive that I haven 't yet have time to do.


This is all a great argument, in the end, for not even using the LFE channel in multichannel music mixes. Put your non-explosive bass in the 'regular' channels and let bass management send it to the sub! Done! (This is Bob Katz's view too)
 

atrocity

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The way I see it, the message you are getting from Foobar is correct. The fact that you only recently starting getting it is what may have changed, maybe due to some update to Foobar or one of its plugins.
I was going to say exactly the same thing. Technically, the message is certainly true(ish) in a purely literal sense but it's really just letting you know that there's no such thing as a pure 1:1 conversion from DSD to PCM. If the prior conversions sound fine, there's no reason to believe that any new ones won't also.
 

polmac

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I wonder if someone can help me..?
I just recently started my music-burning journey, which I'm finding challenging.
I've just downloaded Foobar2000 onto my Mac, with a view to burning my Ohio Players "Fire" dts-cd.
I've looked at the "Converting MCH Discs:DTS CD's (Foobar 2000)" thread. My problem is at the VERY start...when I insert the disc, it doesn't seem to be recognised. When i hit the "File" button, I don't get the "Open CD" option, just "Open", "Add Files" etc. All that happens is, iTunes fires up and asks me if i want to copy it to my library.
I've tried inserting the CD first, then opening the program, and vice versa.
Any help would be appreciated.
 

GOS

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I wonder if someone can help me..?
I just recently started my music-burning journey, which I'm finding challenging.
I've just downloaded Foobar2000 onto my Mac, with a view to burning my Ohio Players "Fire" dts-cd.
I've looked at the "Converting MCH Discs:DTS CD's (Foobar 2000)" thread. My problem is at the VERY start...when I insert the disc, it doesn't seem to be recognised. When i hit the "File" button, I don't get the "Open CD" option, just "Open", "Add Files" etc. All that happens is, iTunes fires up and asks me if i want to copy it to my library.
I've tried inserting the CD first, then opening the program, and vice versa.
Any help would be appreciated.
Let me try a DTS CD via Foobar and see what mine looks like.
 

GOS

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OK, for sure mine does show both:

Open
Open audio CD

Just for fun, I chose Open and it pops open another windows view, and from there I can direct it to my external player and pick up the songs there. Can you do that? Regardless, it sounds like you are missing a plugin or something.
 

polmac

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Hi.
Well, I don't actually have an external player (though I'm in the process of getting an ext bdr to burn my blu-rays). My iTunes player fires up when i insert the dts-disc. Although when I've been burning my dvd-a's in the last few days (with dvdae), it uses some other dvd software to play it.
I may have a DTS plugin, but I'm not sure how to find out if I do or not. Is that something I should have downloaded?
 

GOS

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Hi.
Well, I don't actually have an external player (though I'm in the process of getting an ext bdr to burn my blu-rays). My iTunes player fires up when i insert the dts-disc. Although when I've been burning my dvd-a's in the last few days (with dvdae), it uses some other dvd software to play it.
I may have a DTS plugin, but I'm not sure how to find out if I do or not. Is that something I should have downloaded?
It's been too long! I don't know if you have to download it, or it comes pre-installed. In Foobar, go to:

* File
* Preferences

Then, this window should open. If you see the DTS decoder listed under installed components, then you already have it. Also, so your Mac has an "internal" disc drive I guess....

1588083959507.png
 

polmac

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Okay, so mine must be slightly different from yours, as, to access Preferences, I had to actually click on where it says FOOBAR2000, just to the left of where it says "File" at the top.
Anyway, when i click Preferences, I get this:
1588089788295.png


Then, when I click UPnP Output, I get:
1588089914968.png


Sadly, very little info there, with nothing remotely relating to Components...
 

atrocity

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I wonder if someone can help me..?
I just recently started my music-burning journey, which I'm finding challenging.
I've just downloaded Foobar2000 onto my Mac, with a view to burning my Ohio Players "Fire" dts-cd.
I've looked at the "Converting MCH Discs:DTS CD's (Foobar 2000)" thread. My problem is at the VERY start...when I insert the disc, it doesn't seem to be recognised. When i hit the "File" button, I don't get the "Open CD" option, just "Open", "Add Files" etc. All that happens is, iTunes fires up and asks me if i want to copy it to my library.
I've tried inserting the CD first, then opening the program, and vice versa.
Any help would be appreciated.
I'm completely ignorant of the Mac world, but I'm wondering if there's something you need to in order to grant permission to Foobar to access your optical drive. Obviously the drive itself works since iTunes is opening up, which makes me think maybe Foobar is blocked. Or does iTunes take possession of the drive in a way that won't let anything else access it?

Or, since the Mac version of Foobar is allegedly not complete yet, maybe it isn't yet able to access optical drives? (Though that seems like a longshot.)
 

GOS

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Just occurred to me that it's a Mac. I guess I didn't even know Foobar would work on a Mac......
 

dghan

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You can always "rip" a disc of any kind to an ISO file. For Windows, ImgBurn will do this. foobar2000 with the right plug-in component knows how to find the music within the ISO file for playback without mounting the ISO file to a drive letter, and the plug-in components know how to make tags for the songs. The only discs foobar2000 doesn't recognize are DVD-V and BD. It works very well for SACD, DVD-A, DTS-CD, and CD.

Another option is to use FFmpeg to convert the ISO tracks to lossless files, which does work for BD and DVD-V. Just mount the ISO file to a drive letter first.
 

dghan

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By the way, foobar2000 does have keyboard shortcuts that you define yourself.
 

himey

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Treat a DTS CD like you would any other CD when ripping or burning because essentially that is what it is.

For playback however you need a processor and a bit perfect route to the processor.
 
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