OPPO BDP-103 Analog Outs to [insert musical 5.1 receiver here] - Looking for opinions, reviews, advice

[JerseyEd]

Dang, y'all. What a learning experience.

I now have the OPPO BDP-103 connected directly to an Emotiva A-800. Once the music gets going, it's great. Sounds wonderful.
But, if the channels aren't doing much, there is VERY noticeable hiss (floor noise).
This seems to be a known problem. As OPPO BDP-103 hiss returned results easily.

I wondered why I heard a "hiss" when using the analog outputs of my BDP-103 at high volume (which in some cases is just a comfortable listening level). I bought better cables, checked polarity of my components, etc. and it was still there. It's non-existant when I use the optical output. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Mike, you can try temporarily moving the Oppo in question to your main system. Plug the Oppos analog front outputs into a spare analog stereo input on the main AVR. Turn it all on and check for hiss. Then maybe start playing with the Oppo's volume level. At full Oppo volume there should be no hiss. At a much lower Oppo volume, there may be hiss due to the degradation caused by the digital volume control.

 

[jimfisheye]

I wondered why I heard a "hiss" when using the analog outputs of my BDP-103 at high volume (which in some cases is just a comfortable listening level). I bought better cables, checked polarity of my components, etc. and it was still there. It's non-existant when I use the optical output. Thanks for the explanation.

One is an analog output involving the built-in DA converters. The optical is digital and passes the digital signal to the next device. (Probably a receiver and then using it's DA converters to get to analog.) Very different outputs!

Gain staging 101:
Every device should pass full level signal to the next until you get to the analog preamp stage (the big system volume control). That's what you attenuate your volume with. Power amps receive the attenuated (or not) signal from the preamp.

Don't turn down a digital volume somewhere upstream! ***
Especially don't turn down an analog volume upstream if you are passing analog line level. <-- That's how you make hiss!

*** If you decided to skip buying an analog preamp (for a separate component system) and insist on doing this digitally, I recommend setting volumes on the power amps such that your lowest digitally attenuated volume is -24db. That leaves you with a 20 bit digital signal. (Turning down 24db digitally loses 4 bits.) More than that and you start washing out the digital signal.

You can pass full level digital signals around all day long with no loss.
You can pass analog line level signals around quite a bit with care. (Line level IS made to be easy on the circuits and wire runs.) Emphasis on care!
It's easy to pick up noise in unbalanced cables. Turning the signal down upstream anywhere ALWAYS adds noise.

Hope this helps.

If it turns out you bought some gear that doesn't connect properly between components (ie. messed up with some of the above), don't struggle and expect physics to change and get results. Take inventory, regroup, get whatever the last piece of the puzzle you need. Attention to gain staging (the term used for making sure levels are correct) can usually lead to connecting most things properly though.

PS. Everything might be connected perfectly for the shootout and you just discovered one of your sets of converters was noisy!

 

[himey]

Is the noise equal in every channel?

Do you have another device, even if it is only two channel to see if indeed it is the 103 and not the amp.

Try a three prong to two prong cheater plug, on the amp, and see if you still get noise.

I use the analog outs of a 103D to a 5.1 preamp and don't have a problem.

 

[eirepaul2]

Good morning all, I just stumbled upon this thread but I haven't read every page. I just wanted to jump in and say I have been using my OPPO 105D direct into older 3-channel and 2-channel ADCOM amps for 3 years now and I have not looked back. Previously tried a Denon receiver and a Outlaw pre-pro, and neither sounded as good or clean or had as low a noise-floor as direct into the two amps. I'm also using Blue Jeans analog cables which are the best performance value you can find. The only disadvantage is a lack of any processing or equalization, but I prefer unaltered sound so I don't use any equalization/processing anyway - this setup works great for me and there is plenty of volume available with the ADCOM amps and an SVS speaker system. The DAC in the OPPO is exceptional and the analog stage was designed for very high performance. I don't know if every power amp would work as well, as there are some electrical matching considerations to take into account, but I have not had a problem with ADCOMs.

 

[jimfisheye]

Noise 101:

Hum comes from ground loops or something actually ungrounded. Either leads to mains power frequency (60Hz and higher harmonics in the USA, 50Hz some other places) finding a path into the signal wires.

Hiss comes from analog noise floor getting turned up into the signal range somewhere. Poor gain staging is the obvious cause. Turning something down upstream and then turning something up to make up for it downstream.

Go through the system piece by piece.
If hum suddenly appears when connecting something, look for the ground loop there!
For hiss... proper gain staging and no exceptions! There IS a way to connect everything with correct levels.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Is the noise equal in every channel?

Do you have another device, even if it is only two channel to see if indeed it is the 103 and not the amp.

Try a three prong to two prong cheater plug, on the amp, and see if you still get noise.

I use the analog outs of a 103D to a 5.1 preamp and don't have a problem.

1) Yes, noise equal in all channels
2) I have a TT with RCA outs, but that might not be correlative. Different voltages. Maybe my OPPO DVD unit has analog outs? I can check.
3) What do you mean by cheater plug? Like, avoid using the ground for the power supply of the amp?
4) It's good to know your 103D works well with your 5.1 pre. I wonder if there are differences in the outs between the 103 and the 103D. Also, what is your model of 5.1 pre?

Thanks.

 

[MCDave]

I went back to post #1 to remind myself of the purpose of this thread. edisonbaggins, what equipment were you using with your 103 to begin with? The first thing you asked in your opening post was about the possibility of the analog outs sounding better. I don't think we ever really answered that, and that's the most important question to deal with FIRST, IMO.

Since you were already using the Oppo, I assume you had only used the digital output, which implies you're already using an AVR or pre/pro. Which one?

Whether the analog outputs would sound better than the digital depends on which component, Oppo or pre/AVR, does a better job of processing the signal and converting it to analog. The Oppo 103 is a very nice player and does a good job in the analog out department, but it's the 95/105/205 that have the beefed-up analog circuitry that make them special. So if you wanted to use the Oppo's analog output to produce a better sound than you're currently getting, then you'll either need to bump up to a 105 or else get a newer preamp/AVR that has a better DAC and analog processing than the one you currently use with the 103's digital output.

But I have some far better advice for you if your objective is just better sound in general: Electronics, source devices and cabling make a miniscule difference compared to the room's acoustics, the speakers that operate within it (which includes positioning), and your listening position.

In order of importance, generally speaking:

1. Room acoustics (size, shape, construction, room contents, finishings)
2. Speaker selection and positioning. Especially the subwoofer, the number of them, and their positions.
3. Listening position, which interacts with speaker and sub position.
4. Quality of the source signal (the recording on the disc or digital file)
5. Source component (turntable and cartridge, disc player, etc.)
6. Signal processor (pre/pro or AVR).
7. Amplification.
8. Cables (unless they are not properly constructed).

edit: In many cases, #4 can make a bigger difference than anything else.

 

[edisonbaggins]

I went back to post #1 to remind myself of the purpose of this thread. edisonbaggins, what equipment were you using with your 103 to begin with? The first thing you asked in your opening post was about the possibility of the analog outs sounding better. I don't think we ever really answered that, and that's the most important question to deal with FIRST, IMO.

Since you were already using the Oppo, I assume you had only used the digital output, which implies you're already using an AVR or pre/pro. Which one?

Whether the analog outputs would sound better than the digital depends on which component, Oppo or pre/AVR, does a better job of processing the signal and converting it to analog. The Oppo 103 is a very nice player and does a good job in the analog out department, but it's the 95/105/205 that have the beefed-up analog circuitry that make them special. So if you wanted to use the Oppo's analog output to produce a better sound than you're currently getting, then you'll either need to bump up to a 105 or else get a newer preamp/AVR that has a better DAC and analog processing than the one you currently use with the 103's digital output.

Hey MCDave, good questions.

For years, my OPPO BDP-103 connected via HDMI to my main HTS. First a Pioneer Elite 7.1 AVR, then a Denon x6400H 11.1 AVR. It sounded great/just fine in both cases.

Recently, I pressed it in to service for this listening room project, because it can play all my Quad sources, connecting via HDMI to a Sherwood 7.1 AVR.

As you may be aware, the speaker setup is an array of Klipsch KG full-range floor-standers from the '90's.

If you haven't seen the Operation Quad Station video, it explains a lot of this:



I was not thrilled with the sound of the Sherwood. Rather than hunt for another AVR, it was suggested I focus on gear meant only for sound, not video.
I should have googled "do OPPO BDP-103 analog outputs suck?" but I didn't think to. I figured if OPPO equipped them, they've got to be good. The fact is, OPPO's own support folks have clarified online that you basically have to use a dedicated, external preamp if you use the 103's analog outs. OK... Good to know...

So, I picked up an Emotiva A-800, per a recommendation in this thread. As I've said, when the music is loud and robust, I think it sounds great. During quiet passages, there is GOBS of hiss.

As I see it, I have 3 possibilities to pursue:

1) Score a 95, 105 or 205 and try it out with the Emotiva. If I understand correctly, this would leave me digitally contolling volume with the OPPO and maybe that's undesirable in some ways. Yet, there seems to be a consensus that xx5's sound good without the need for a preamp. Maybe they actually have analog volume control? IDK.

2) Score a suitable preamp and try that out. I guess it would behoove me to find out what the voltage of the 103's analog outputs are at 100% (fixed) volume.
And make sure the preamp can handle that?

3) Score some kind of AVR with lots of flexibility, like @timbre4 has suggested. His 3 recommendations can accept either HDMI or analog input and have the needed analog preouts for my use case.

All of these options have pros and cons.

I think one of @timbre4 's recommendations is likeliest to make me happy with my listening room project. However, an additional AVR of this type is highly unlikely to be useful for integrating in to my main HTS in the future (the plan is to consolidate amps, full-range speakers and such in to my main media room in the future, when my son isn't so destructive).

An OPPO xx5 would doubtless get use over the years, in any system setup. But, what if I get it all hooked up analog and there is still too much hiss for my taste? That would be disappointing in the here and now.

A preamp would most likely not be of much benefit being integrated in to my main HTS later (or maybe it would still be great upstream from the A-800 - the thought being to take some load off of the x6400H via it's preouts, leaving it to only power the heights, perhaps). And what if I hook it up and it doesn't solve the 103's hiss? However, it might work, could be fairly cheap and might possibly sound the best of all my choices, assuming it is a good match for the 103 and the A-800.

 

[jimfisheye]

Pretty sure I strongly agree with all that @MCDave.

Cables and boutique cables...

Most cable issues that you can directly hear something wrong from are a gross problem. A broken wire. Poor/cheap shielding (like a braid that has gaps). An almost broken wire connected by a single strand.

If you have a hum or hiss issue, it may follow a damaged cable. This isn't some quality issue a boutique cable would address though. This is a broken/damaged cable. My point in chasing down noise issues is to look for actual damage. This isn't a standard vs boutique thing, it's a functional vs broken thing. Don't throw money at it! Look for the broken thing.

Chasing the stand-alone hardware players though... PITA and expensive with low bang for the buck!
Laptop.
Optical drive installed if you wish (DVD or bluray).
Hard drive storage + backup.
Audio interface with pro quality DACs and the number of analog outputs you need.
Preamp.
Amps.
Speakers.

You deal directly with each component. You don't end up buying multiple sets of something expensive that you can only use one of! Like DACs.

And again, I'm looking at this from the perspective of most accurate sound reproduction true to the source possible with the biggest bang for the buck system build. If someone else is prioritizing the experience of using certain style equipment or obsolete tech over the performance and sonic results, that's all good and I have no horse in that race.

 

[4-earredwonder]

The ONLY thing I can add, Mike, is that the OPPO 5 series always boasted better power supplies and more refined analogue outputs. I'm also a stickler for audiophile grade RCA interconnects. I did at one time order a set of Blue Jean RCA interconnects to utilize with my Marantz SA 11S3 SACD player and thought they sounded dreadful and swapped them out for a pair of Shunyata Research RCA interconnects and it WAS night and day. But I would in all honesty try to find a good pre amp. Unfortunately, I have two [count 'em] defective but HIGHLY REGARDED Parasound P7 ALL analogue pre amps but even after sending them back to Parasound for repair they have problems ...... but when they work they are exquisite. Quiet as a church mouse!

Parasound P7 Pre~Amp

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Mike, you need to be sure the Oppo analog outs are either working properly or not before you do anything else. I don't believe it has a headphone jack, so it has to be inserted into a system to determine this. If I read your posts correctly, you have never tried the analog outputs until now.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Mike, you need to be sure the Oppo analog outs are either working properly or not before you do anything else. I don't believe it has a headphone jack, so it has to be inserted into a system to determine this. If I read your posts correctly, you have never tried the analog outputs until now.

Correct, I have never tried the analog outs until now. Do you have a suggested test?
Bear in mind that what I'm experiencing closely resembles the consensus of feedback online.
I'm happy to test, but my prediction is we're going to find my 103's outs are fine, but just sound super-hissy. Maybe better a 100% (fixed) volume, maybe not.
Maybe an all-analog pre/pro would do the trick, but I'm thinking I should select an option that has HDMI capability.
The Emotiva UMC-200 and MC-700 both utilize HDMI inputs for surround sound (they have stereo analog inputs for other types of components).

 

[timbre4]

My bad I guess; when I said unnatural I should have probably said unconventional. Whatever floats thy boat.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Correct, I have never tried the analog outs until now. Do you have a suggested test?
Bear in mind that what I'm experiencing closely resembles the consensus of feedback online.
I'm happy to test, but my prediction is we're going to find my 103's outs are fine, but just sound super-hissy. Maybe better a 100% (fixed) volume, maybe not.
Maybe an all-analog pre/pro would do the trick, but I'm thinking I should select an option that has HDMI capability.
The Emotiva UMC-200 and MC-700 both utilize HDMI inputs for surround sound (they have stereo analog inputs for other types of components).

My suggested test is to connect the 103's FL and FR MC analog outs (not the 103's stereo pair, IIRC the stereo DAC is different from the MC DAC) to a stereo input on your working AVR. Evaluate for hiss content at several different Oppo volume levels, especially the level at which you heard hiss when connected to just the power amp. To do this properly you will have to increase the AVR volume as you reduce the Oppo's volume and vice versa. The idea is to try to keep the volume of the music the same across all comparisons, but by lowering the Oppo volume you may introduce hiss.

Prediction noted. And I would have to wonder how much better a 105 would be in this regard. I realize they have different DACs, but the difference in noise shouldn't be that drastic. I'll bet Oppo recommends the use of a preamp for either model.

The Emotiva MC-700 has stereo analog inputs only. The UMC-200 has stereo and 7.1 multichannel analog inputs.

 

[edisonbaggins]

My suggested test is to connect the 103's FL and FR MC analog outs (not the 103's stereo pair, IIRC the stereo DAC is different from the MC DAC) to a stereo input on your working AVR. Evaluate for hiss content at several different Oppo volume levels, especially the level at which you heard hiss when connected to just the power amp. To do this properly you will have to increase the AVR volume as you reduce the Oppo's volume and vice versa. The idea is to try to keep the volume of the music the same across all comparisons, but by lowering the Oppo volume you may introduce hiss.

Prediction noted. And I would have to wonder how much better a 105 would be in this regard. I realize they have different DACs, but the difference in noise shouldn't be that drastic. I'll bet Oppo recommends the use of a preamp for either model.

The Emotiva MC-700 has stereo analog inputs only. The UMC-200 has stereo and 7.1 multichannel analog inputs.

I'll happily do the test. That was a golden tip about the UMC-200, my friend!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I'll happily do the test. That was a golden tip about the UMC-200, my friend!

If you can find a used one in good shape, I'd recommend it. It does all the audio formats except Atmos, it just won't do 4K video. It even has an Emotiva version of DSP room correction and a 10 band PEQ

 

[4-earredwonder]

Correct, I have never tried the analog outs until now. Do you have a suggested test?
Bear in mind that what I'm experiencing closely resembles the consensus of feedback online.
I'm happy to test, but my prediction is we're going to find my 103's outs are fine, but just sound super-hissy. Maybe better a 100% (fixed) volume, maybe not.
Maybe an all-analog pre/pro would do the trick, but I'm thinking I should select an option that has HDMI capability.
The Emotiva UMC-200 and MC-700 both utilize HDMI inputs for surround sound (they have stereo analog inputs for other types of components).

Yes, Mike, those ALL analogue pre~amps do NOT have HDMI, no DSP and can be a challenge. For an all analogue system, they'd, however, probably be more preferable.

 

[jimfisheye]

Vet any HDMI connecting devices carefully!
Some receivers have audio input disabled on their HDMI inputs. They only pass video!
Some computers have HDMI outputs that have audio disabled - video only. (Usually only some of the Windows running "netbook" style budget machines.) Some video cards (for pci tower machines) have HDMI outputs that are video only from said card.

On the computer:
If a native HDMI port is partially disabled, try the thunderbolt port.
It will be full featured. A thunderbolt to HDMI cable is a ready made thing as are TB to HDMI adapters.

A restricted HDMI input on a receiver has no workaround. You need to know this isn't OK and to avoid those kinds of products.

 

[Philip Spinner]

I don't know about the 103 but my 105D had excess hiss until I discovered the volume control on the Oppo was trimmed down a bit. Cranked it up to 100% and sounds great now. You probably already tried this though.