Ortofon - a miserable failure for CD-4

[barfle]

I was talking about the playback of any CD drive. What if the CD format goes away and no players are left (like what happened to Beta)? Or worse, what if an electromagnetic pulse wiped out all of the digital players in the world?

Probably the same pulse would wipe out any analog circuitry as well. You would be stuck with hand-cranked Victrolas.

 

[MidiMagic]

Probably the same pulse would wipe out any analog circuitry as well. You would be stuck with hand-cranked Victrolas.

Most tube equipment requires a much larger pulse to be damaged.

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

Finally, I found and purchased an Ortofon SL-20Q with a stated 40 hours. Somehow I always missed them, they do sell occasionally. I purchased the Ortofon MCA-76 over 6-7 years ago. With my CD4 quest, after early experiments and the sound of sand... I abandoned and tried to take a patient longer view. I started the accumulation.

Turntable is JVC the JL-A40. Nothing amazing, just like it... I have several for parts, intend on doing others for friends... I found the capacitor rebuild kits & new 3D printed cueing cams from two different sellers in Australia. Lastly, I want to upgrade the cables. I have much soldering to do...

I've got several unopened Quadra-Disc albums in anticipation... including an NOS Gorilla by James Taylor...

Previously I'd found the following; Technics EPC-460c and NOS stylus. Audio-Technica AT20Sla with new reproduction Shibata. Still looking for that Micro-Acoustics QDC-1g. My first HiFi was Micro Acoustics 282e cart on a Micro Seiki turntable with Micro Acoustics speakers, a Nikko amp & tuner. I've got many other demodulators, its in what true condition, right?

I'm getting close...

 

[Paul Pettegrove]

I didn't mention the JVC X1 as part of my "find list", because I thought it unobtainium. Finding the SL-20Q made me look it up... first time ever... never thought I'd see it happen... At $900 its too much for me, but thought folks used to top-of-the-line modern cartridges see these price levels regularly...

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb36hf-jvc-x-1-mk-2-cartridges

 

[kfbkfb]

Audio-Technica AT20Sla with new reproduction Shibata

This A-T CD-4 cart is highly regarded and should work well for CD-4, why pursue getting other CD-4 carts?


Kirk Bayne

 

[Owen Smith]

This A-T CD-4 cart is highly regarded and should work well for CD-4, why pursue getting other CD-4 carts?

Kirk Bayne

Because a number of people have reported no success with the AT20Sla and CD-4, not entirely surprising since it doesn't officially support it. Seems to be a "your mileage may vary" cartridge.

 

[Electric Moo]

I've had it up to here with the myths. Supposedly Ortofon MC cartridges are capable of CD-4 playback. After years and multiple attempts at trying to achieve this, I've decided I'm done playing the game of insanity of trying to do the same things over and over again and expect some miraculous magical different results.

I declare right here that I am 100 percent confident, without any doubt in my mind, that nothing Ortofon has ever made has the capabilities of playing back CD-4 properly, and anyone who says otherwise likely needs their ears checked.

I know files float around that claim to use some mythical Ortofon setup - does anyone know where they really came from? Has anyone seen the equipment do this? File labels are just that - file labels. Who knows what the hell are on those files.

I've decided I'm done with Ortofon as a company for life after dealing with what feels like years of abuse! I've had it!!!

Research begins NOW on suitable replacements, and I'll be selling it all off. I'm done with them, and their years of false claims that littered the webs with lies, costing me years of countless money and hours to find no truth in!

Sick and tired of advertisers cluttering the world with lies that we have to sort through to find any truth.



TLDR: I spent hours yet again swapping a cartridge, playing with tiny screws, protractors, and tiny tools, and even had to resolder a fucking wire that won't play nice, to determine that yes - the $200 fucking dollar Panasonic demodulator performs equally shitty as every-fucking-thing-else!!!!!!!!!!!


I hate CD-4. Format never did anything good for me! Nothing but a money drain with no payoff!

Did Ortofon themselves ever claim it was CD-4 compatible?

 

[par4ken]

Did Ortofon themselves ever claim it was CD-4 compatible?

Yes the Ortofon SL-20Q was made for quad.

 

[Electric Moo]

Yes the Ortofon SL-20Q was made for quad.

OP was using an MC20 though?

Haven't read all 7 pages. But why is Ortofon to blame here? Sounds like an internet myth, and Ortofon is being slandered because of an old wives tale?

Ortofon make good quality stuff!

 

[Electric Moo]

I just looked back to get more details & it's a long rant with not much tech info. Blame Ortofon though!

Lol

 

[kfbkfb]

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1974-03.pdf#page=43
https://www.lpgear.com/product/ATSAT0020SL.html
https://www.lpgear.com/product/ATSAT0020SLa.html
I was thinking of the AT20SL CD-4 cart, looks like an AT20SLa would work for CD-4 though.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Doug G.]

The Audio Technica AT20SLa was, in fact, designed specifically for CD-4.

If people are having problems with this cartridge, they have other issues in their CD-4 setups.

 

[Electric Moo]

Yes, I don't believe the OP was using that cart though? He said it was an MC20

So we have a massive thread with "Ortofon = miserable failure!! " because someone knocked themselves out trying non CD4 spec gear?

 

[Doug G.]

Ortofon never advertised the MC-20Q as having a frequency response in accordance with CD-4 specifications. They only claimed 20 - 20kHz. It's like the AT440Mla. The stylus was not a Shibata-like cut. It was a bi-radial elliptical. If some users had/have success with it for CD-4, it was/is fortuitous.

In my case, although the AT440MLa generally works very well for CD-4, there are still some instances where it will have trouble with densely engraved passages where my cartridges specifically designed for CD-4 ( XUV-4500Q, 4000 D/1, EPC-451C II, etc.) will not.

I always preach this and it's true. You can't take shortcuts or try to use equipment not specifically designed for CD-4 and expect to have total success.

Doug

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

The Ortofon MC20 specs are listed as having a frequency range of 5-60k. It also has an output level that it should pair properly with the MCA-76 head amp. The listed specs of the equipment meet or exceed the required specs of CD4. Yet, as happens to me time and time again, I buy equipment that on paper claims to meet the specs for CD4, only to be met with inner groove sandpaper.

I really don't give a shit what anyone thinks of my rants. I've thrown away a lot of good money on the format, and I'm pissed, I'll rant if I want.

 

[Doug G.]

Published specs for the MC-20 are frequency response: 20 - 20KkHz +/- 2 db and frequency RANGE of 5 - 60kHz but without any tolerances given. So that spec. is pretty meaningless and, once again, expecting successful performance for CD-4 is a crap shoot.

I still don't understand why people attempt to use equipment not specifically meant for CD-4 and expect it to work. It doesn't really matter that others claim great results. That's the myth part.

Doug

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Ok, lets talk specs of Ortofon cartridges.

What started me down this rabbit hole is that bloody cd4 filter button on the damn MCA-76 head amp. However - not even the literature for the head amp actually specifies the reason for that button. The specs clearly show it is a filter that attenuates the supersonic frequencies. The theory has been that this was to prevent interference from frequencies beyond the range of the carrier signal. But - I've seen no publishings from Ortofon suggesting this, or even suggesting it's for CD4 playback of CD4 records. Could it possibly be a filter to attenuate the carrier when playing back cd4 records in stereo, because clearly quad is dead, but you may still want to listen to those old records on your fancy new stereo hi-fi that replaced that aging gimicky quadraphonic crap you used to have? Honestly - I don't know, could go either way on that at this point.

But, when I started down this rabbit hole, I was working under the assumption that the box was intended to work with proper quadraphonic playback of CD4 records. Which implies the existance of ortofon cartridges that would pair with it and support that. As I've said many times, some idiot taking phone calls for needledoctor.com told me "oh sure, the Rondo Bronze will pair beautifully with that head amp". When I got sandpaper, Ortofon support themselves told me the pairing was off. While they couldn't tell me what cartridges it was intended to be used with, what they could tell me is "Back in the days that MCA-76 was a current product, it was not at all uncommon to see MC cartridges with 0.1mV or less output, but since then there have been some changes which render most step ups and active devices from that era unsuitable for modern cartridges." So, I poured over the databases that existed at that time of Ortofon cartridges, and at the time, from what I looked over, the only thing that met all specs for CD4 and output level was the MC20.

Now then, we get to today. I don't know what database I relied on over 10 years ago to get to that conclusion. But, today if one goes to ortofon.com to look up specs, it appears the MC10, 20, and 30 fall into that similar range of perhaps meeting the specs. However, as Doug points out, there are the specs of "frequency response" and "frequency range" Which.....what in the fuck is that all supposed to mean? Two measurements of the same thing? I agree it may be possible that the spec is meaningless......but then why in the hell did they include it if it means nothing?

Perhaps over 10 years ago when I determined the MC20 as the best possible pairing, I was referring to a database that transposed the frequency range as the response. I don't know. But - it's not like I picked a cartridge that clearly states it doesn't go beyond 20k - it lists a spec right there claiming some performance within that range.

But ok - lets go with meaningless spec, 20k, not rated for CD4.

Then what in the fuck is meant to pair with this headamp for cd4 playback if we continue down this road of assumption that the headamp is meant for cd4 playback?

Only other thing I've heard of mentioned for this is the SL20Q. Supposedly the Q stand for quadraphonic. Inconveniently, ortofon's website includes no mention nor information about this cartridge. Scouring the web, I found 2 things. This link that references it as being for quadraphonic - A SHORT HISTORY OF ORTOFON PICK-UP CARTRIDGES…. » Adventures in Hifi Audio, and this link that lists specs of a frequency response that only goes up to 20k - ORTOFON SL-20-Q. Not promising. But - also not information directly from Ortofon.

Which brings me back to wondering - have we been wrong in our assumption all along that this cd4 button was meant for playback to a demodulator?

 

[Doug G.]

I actually agree that Ortofon has been purposely vague here. I think they just let everything ride, especially in the early days, because everybody wanted to jump on the quad bandwagon and if there were those who claimed success with their cartridge(s), all the better. There was even that article about different CD-4 cartridges and supposedly, an Ortofon not even meant for CD-4 was declared stellar. I was always skeptical about that.

It still boils down to those, out in the field, trying to shortcut or thinking they have a better idea. Audiophiles are (in)famous for that.

I see it all the time. Somebody will try some cartridge somebody else claims worked wonders for their CD-4 experience and when it doesn't work, they will condemn CD-4 to hell.

All I've done is use equipment designed for CD-4. specifically, and playing CD-4 records in full, discrete, quad, is no different from playing regular two-channel records. Distortion is so rare, it's almost not worth mentioning. Not any more than mentioning various distortions related to two channel LPs.

Doug

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Well, that brings us back to the start of this thread - screw Ortofon!

So....where to next.....

Well, for me, it's time to work on selling off some stuff to help recoup some loss to put into the next plan.

Which has my wandering thoughts on what to do about my turntable situation:

At some point, I decided vintage means dealing with the baggage that comes with aging equipment. It's unreliable, and if you don't know how to fix things up, you're screwed. Add to that a salesman running a repair shop that makes more money on sales than repairs, and I was convinced to spend nearly $1k on an NAD C588 turntable. I have no complaints on the turntable, been loving it. Enough to seek out a deal on a 2nd one, thinking pairing that with the MC20, or the Signet TK7Su (a cartridge specifically rated for CD4) would get me up and running for CD4. But even the Signet is giving me sandpaper on inner grooves. Is it the turntable?

But - is this turntable really better than other cheaper options?

If I have one complaint about the NAD, and many modern hi-fi turntables, it's how stripped down they are. Certainly I understand why stacking changers aren't a thing anymore - but whatever happened to the auto return? I really miss that. For $1,000, you'd think the least you could do would be to save me the trouble of having to immediately run to the turntable to lift the needle out of the inner groove. I don't get it.

And then I saw someone reference the Technics SL-1700 as a turntable specifically rated for CD4 playback. And I thought...hmmm....lets look on ebay. Next thing I know one is on it's way here.

So I boxed up the 2nd NAD. Barely used. But I'll need to unbox it enough to take a few pictures I suppose and list the thing on ebay. I'm done with that, ridiculous to have 2 of those things.

And the SL-1700 with the Signet is still giving me sandpaper on the inner grooves. Lovely... But at least it didn't cost me as much as the NAD.

And dialing in the speed with the strobe seems a little iffy. So I bought a recap kit for it - yay, another project to throw on the to do list.

But - the thought is, eventually if I find a suitable cartridge to pair with that turntable, that should be adequate for CD4.

I guess what I haven't decided yet though is - is it really worth holding on to the first NAD? Once I get the Technics recapped and solid in it's platter rotation, will I notice a difference between the 2 turntables if I were to move the same cartridge between them? Problem is, it would be a pain in the ass to move a cartridge back and forth on them and calibrate it each time, and remember what I heard between the moving of it. So.......yeah.......dunno what I"m going to decide there. But I'm starting to lean towards it being convenient if I can come to the conclusion that the Technics turntable is adequate, and I don't need the fancy new NAD that can't even auto return. It would get me back to 1 turntable on the main listening system, perhaps recoup me some money selling off another NAD turntable, and save me the trouble of running to the turntable immediately at the end of a side.


But....that's not the cd4 dilemma. The cd4 dilemma is - what in the heck do you do for a cartridge for CD4 today? The most common new cartridges are Audio Technica and Ortofon. But their new cartridges aren't rated for CD4. Sure, the modern ATs get lots of praise for out of spec CD4 playback. And I've tried that once - wasn't all that impressed, not as good as the Signet. But, what if one kicks that up a notch? I've been considering for a while picking up a "free" VM750SH once I accumulate enough amazon points from my amazon credit card to get one for free. It's the one that actually comes with a proper shibata tipped stylus. And it's rated higher than ones claimed to work with CD4. But....that enters into that "shortcut / better idea" territory that gets us into trouble - although there's been nothing short about these shortcuts at all! But still - I've been curious about that cartridge for some time. And perhaps I could resell it if it doesn't pan out.

So ok, that's the "shortcut" idea on my mind lately - but if I don't want to continue dicking around with "shortcuts" - what other options are there?

Well, there's going back to eBay for used options of CD4 rated cartridges. But then you're dealing with used/worn stylus issues there. Sure, they can be retipped. And I did that with my Signet. But - I'm not sure if that's even guaranteed to hold to the same specs as the original stylus.

Is there anything new that fits the bill?

Hmmm....well....if we go back to my whole "retipping" thing - where have I been going for that? Soundsmith. Which.....also makes cartridges. Who's making the cartridges? The guy that made the strain gage cartridge that came with the Panasonic demodulator, so he knows a thing or 2 about this. Lots of very expensive options there. But perhaps, perhaps the $1,500 Zephyr MkIII with it's frequency response of 15-45k might be a decent option for a modern solution for CD4. And heck, probably would be good enough to just use for stereo and CD4, and retire the damn Ortofon Rondo Bronze already. But - do I put it on the Technics, or the NAD?



Anyways.....not looking to spend that much cash just yet. But perhaps selling off a few NAD turntables, and some spare cartridges, could get me partway there.


Well - it's past midnight, time to get some sleep.

 

[kfbkfb]

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...a-cartridges-for-best-cd-4-performance.29754/
If possible, get an old A-T CD-4 cart, LPgear.com may have a Shibata stylus for it.


Kirk Bayne