Penteo 16 Pro & Reaper 6 - The basics, and best practices

[Albert Dagger]

I'm starting with thread with the hope of providing useful tips to new Penteo upmixers who are working with Reaper 6, and are keen to check their work in real time before running a conversion in batch mode (which is explained in detail here). I'm also hoping that this thread will become a space to share best practices and thoughts on using Penteo 16 Pro. Given that it works well on some tracks, but less on others, this thread could also become a space to post a list of albums and tracks that, in your opinion, works incredibly well when upmixed through Penteo.

Now, let's start....

1) Make sure your sound card is ready to send 5.1 audio to your receiver. Mine can only play 5.1; it does not allow me to listen to quad upmixes in real time. The rear channels are simply seen as centre and LFE. Anyway, simply right click on your sound card tray icon and make sure it's set up to play 5.1. Click on Playback Devices, [your sound card], Advanced, and select the resolution of your files/project (my sound card only works with Reaper and Penteo if 24/48 or a lower resolution is selected. Selecting 24/96 does not allow me to play a track).

2) Open Reaper, and check the audio device settings under: Options > Preferences > Audio > Device. I am using WASAPI but am unable to make it work in exclusive mode, so I'm using shared mode. This is strange, considering that Exclusive mode works with a lot of other apps. Anyway, make sure the output device is selected correctly. As you can see below, I am using my Denon Receiver, and have chosen 6 Output channels. I have also reduced the block size to 128 samples (but I don't believe this is necessary for the purpose of this tutorial).

3) Drag and drop a WAV track in the Reaper canvas/working space. This will automatically create a new file in the same folder (a Reaper Peaks File). You can change the location of this file in the options, if you like.
Then, click on FX (just besides the title track) to access the Penteo VST3 plug in. Click on Penteo and this will open its graphic interface.
(You have probably noticed from the screenshot below that I'm working on Phenomena by Claudio Simonetti. This track sounds amazing in 5.1!)

4) Now you have to tell Reaper how to send 5.1 audio to your receiver. If you don't, Reaper will only play back the front channels of the upmixed track. To do so, go to the mixer on the bottom left of the screen and right click on Route. This will open the window below. Change track channels from 2 to 6 on the top right (track channels, screenshot in the middle). Then, click on the 1/2 dropdown menu, on the bottom left of the screen (screenshot on the right) and select Multichannel source, 6 channels, 1-6.

5) Repeat the same procedure for the individual track in your mixer (click on Route, then Track channels, select 6):

6) Now, let's go back to Penteo. You have to change the input and output channel order in the settings (gear icon, on the top left, see below).
The correct order for WAV and FLAC files is: L, R, C, LFE, Lss, Rss, Lsr, Rsr, (for both input and output. You can set these as defaults.)

7) Now, let's have a look at the Penteo interface. On the left, you'll find your input track with Mute and Solo options for each channel. On the right, you'll see the 6 channels of the upmixed track. Make sure 5.1 is selected. Mute and Solo options are available and quite handy to check the upmix results and fine tune the Penteo parameters.

8) It's time to click on play and listen to the upmixed track, but first, have a look at the following options:

A) Test the centre channel in Discrete mode: 0dB will generally return clear vocals isolated in the centre, with little to no leaks to other channels. Of course, use this if that's what you are after. By reducing the Centre channel slider, you'll send information to the other channels. I would start with 0, and eventually reduce that during playback, depending on the track and your personal taste. In my opinion, there's no fixed value and this has to be checked on a track-by-track basis. In most cases, I found that it works well between 0dB and -5dB. Bear in mind that some tracks are instrumental, and Penteo will send other instruments to the centre channel. Perhaps, discrete mode is not the right configuration for those tracks, or just set it to -5dB or even lower.

B) the Lsr-Rsr slider is expressed as a percentage. This will send more or less information to the surround channels, depending on your preference. In my tests, I've seen that anything between 0% and -35% can work well, depending on the track, the genre and your personal taste. I generally start with 0%, and lower it down slowly to find the right balance that works for me.

C) the LFE channel. Considering that I have a 5.0 system, I find the only option for me is to set Diverge to Off. Otherwise, I find that the downmix from 5.1 to 5.0 adds too much bass. Don't know why exactly. Anyway, the default setting should be ok, -6dB, split mode, 80dB. I would just recommend to not use diverge.


9) If everything works correctly, your interface should look like this during playback. Now there's the fun of playing with sliders and isolate the output channels...

Well, now it's your turn to enjoy Penteo. I've found that Kraftwerk's Electric Cafe' comes up as a very discrete upmix. Pink Floyd's Sheep has also provided satisfactory results, in particular the track intro! These are good starting points to play with. Any jazz album will also provide nice results (I've tried Bill Evan's Interplay and Jaco Pastorius's S/T).

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I'm starting with thread with the hope of providing useful tips to new Penteo upmixers who are working with Reaper 6, and are keen to check their work in real time before running a conversion in batch mode (which is explained in detail here). I'm also hoping that this thread will become a space to share best practices and thoughts on using Penteo 16 Pro. Given that it works well on some tracks, but less on others, this thread could also become a space to post a list of albums and tracks that, in your opinion, works incredibly well when upmixed through Penteo.

Now, let's start....

1) Make sure your sound card is ready to send 5.1 audio to your receiver. Mine can only play 5.1; it does not allow me to listen to quad upmixes in real time. The rear channels are simply seen as centre and LFE. Anyway, simply right click on your sound card tray icon and make sure it's set up to play 5.1. Click on Playback Devices, [your sound card], Advanced, and select the resolution of your files/project (my sound card only works with Reaper and Penteo if 24/48 or a lower resolution is selected. Selecting 24/96 does not allow me to play a track).

2) Open Reaper, and check the audio device settings under: Options > Preferences > Audio > Device. I am using WASAPI but am unable to make it work in exclusive mode, so I'm using shared mode. This is strange, considering that Exclusive mode works with a lot of other apps. Anyway, make sure the output device is selected correctly. As you can see below, I am using my Denon Receiver, and have chosen 6 Output channels. I have also reduced the block size to 128 samples (but I don't believe this is necessary for the purpose of this tutorial).

3) Drag and drop a WAV track in the Reaper canvas/working space. This will automatically create a new file in the same folder (a Reaper Peaks File). You can change the location of this file in the options, if you like.
Then, click on FX (just besides the title track) to access the Penteo VST3 plug in. Click on Penteo and this will open its graphic interface.
(You have probably noticed from the screenshot below that I'm working on Phenomena by Claudio Simonetti. This track sounds amazing in 5.1!)

4) Now you have to tell Reaper how to send 5.1 audio to your receiver. If you don't, Reaper will only play back the front channels of the upmixed track. To do so, go to the mixer on the bottom left of the screen and right click on Route. This will open the window below. Change track channels from 2 to 6 on the top right (track channels, screenshot in the middle). Then, click on the 1/2 dropdown menu, on the bottom left of the screen (screenshot on the right) and select Multichannel source, 6 channels, 1-6.

5) Repeat the same procedure for the individual track in your mixer (click on Route, then Track channels, select 6):

6) Now, let's go back to Penteo. You have to change the input and output channel order in the settings (gear icon, on the top left, see below).
The correct order for WAV and FLAC files is: L, R, C, LFE, Lss, Rss, Lsr, Rsr, (for both input and output!)

7) Now, let's have a look at the Penteo interface. On the left, you'll find your input track with Mute and Solo options for each channel. On the right, you'll see the 6 channels of the upmixed track. Make sure 5.1 is selected. Mute and Solo options are available and quite handy to check the upmix results and fine tune the Penteo parameters.

8) It's time to click on play and listen to the upmixed track, but first, have a look at the following options:

A) Test the centre channel in Discrete mode: 0dB will generally return clear vocals isolated in the centre, with little to no leaks to other channels. Of course, use this if that's what you are after. By reducing the Centre channel slider, you'll send information to the other channels. I would start with 0, and eventually reduce that during playback, depending on the track and your personal taste. In my opinion, there's no fixed value and this has to be checked on a track-by-track basis. In most cases, I found that it works well between 0dB and -5dB. Bear in mind that some tracks are instrumental, and Penteo will send other instruments to the centre channel. Perhaps, discrete mode is not the right configuration for those tracks, or just set it to -5dB or even lower.

B) the Lsr-Rsr slider is expressed as a percentage. This will send more or less information to the surround channels, depending on your preference. In my tests, I've seen that anything between 0% and -30% can work well, depending on the track, the genre and your personal taste. I tend to go lower for Jazz, and a bit higher for Pop/Rock.

C) the LFE channel. I have problems with this slider. I find that Penteo adds quite a lot of bass to the input tracks. Anyway, I reduce this to -10dB, even if the default is -6dB, and use split mode, 63dB. I'm just trying to avoid overly bloated bass. You could even turn this off, and will simply return a silent LFE channel.


9) If everything works correctly, your interface should look like this during playback. Now there's the fun of playing with sliders and isolate the output channels...

Well, now it's your turn to enjoy Penteo. I've found that Kraftwerk's Electric Cafe' comes up as a very discrete upmix. Pink Floyd's Sheep has also provided satisfactory results, in particular the track intro! These are good starting points to play with. Any jazz album will also provide nice results (I've tried Bill Evan's Interplay and Jaco Pastorius's S/T).

Love the thread @albertop but I can't see the screen shots?

 

[HomerJAU]

Screen shots there for me

 

[Albert Dagger]

Love the thread @albertop but I can't see the screen shots?

Thank you. I don't know why you can't see the images. Perhaps you are not logged in? I can try to download all the images and re upload them

 

[Albert Dagger]

Love the thread @albertop but I can't see the screen shots?

I've re-uploaded all the images. Hope it works now! If not, I'll need help.

 

[HomerJAU]

Alberto, you should set both input and output order to L R C LFE etc (like your output) as defaults. It won’t effect stereo UMs but it will if you ever use Penteo to remix 5.1 to 7.1, although its correct for quad to 5.1. I don’t plan to remix quad to 5.1 as like quad.

 

[GOS]

I see all screenshots too

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I've re-uploaded all the images. Hope it works now! If not, I'll need help.

Good to go thanks!

 

[Albert Dagger]

Alberto, you should set both input and output order to L R C LFE etc (like your output) as defaults. It won’t effect stereo UMs but it will if you ever use Penteo to remix 5.1 to 7.1, although its correct for quad to 5.1. I don’t plan to remix quad to 5.1 as like quad.

Yep! Both input and output. I’ve just realised that the screenshot is wrong while the text is correct. I’ll fix it!

 

[bracelis]

1) Make sure your sound card is ready to send 5.1 audio to your receiver. Mine can only play 5.1; it does not allow me to listen to quad upmixes in real time. The rear channels are simply seen as centre and LFE. Anyway, simply right click on your sound card tray icon and make sure it's set up to play 5.1.

Although I cannot send a 4-channel signal to a receiver through HDMI, either, I can send the Penteo quad mix in realtime inside a 5.1 signal to the receiver (with empty center and LFE channels). I first set the number of channels to 6, then select upmix output = 4.0, and route/send channels 3/4 of the quad upmix to channels 5/6 of the receiver. Even if the upmix output is 4.0, the available output channels is still 6.

And you can render/save the upmixed quad to either a 4-channel FLAC or a 6-channel FLAC (again with empty center and LFE channels). The trick/workaround of saving a quad source (for example, Blu ray discs with a quad source, like the Chicago Quadio) to a 6-channel FLAC for compatibility has been discussed elsewhere in the forums.

To save the Penteo upmixed quad to a 6-channel FLAC, I use the "plugin pin-connector" on the track to route channels 3/4 of the upmix to channels 5/6 of the output (see attached image) -- I don't know if there's another way to do this, but this works for me. I also tried using the input and output order in the Penteo settings described in the original post, but it didn't seem to work for me.

I prefer to send the original/unprocessed stereo source to the front L,R channels to maintain a full sound in the front, and I only use the rear channels from the Pento upmix. I create two tracks in Reaper from the same stereo source:
(1) The original stereo source is sent to the L/R channels of the receiver and/or saved to FLAC.
(2) The rear channels of the Penteo upmix are sent to the rear channels of the receiver and/or saved to FLAC.


I actually do not bother saving the upmixes to FLAC -- I just play the the stereo file in real time using JRiver. The JRiver ouput is sent to the 'ReaRoute ASIO' function of Reaper, and Reaper takes this as the input.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I'm still using mainly 4.0 as my upmix choice, will play around with 5.1 eventually. And I also believe that batch upmixing is fine, but I tend to want to work with each song individually as they all have things to fine tune.

Once I worked on Donovan's Cosmic Wheels some, I noticed the main vocals were coming in from the right side channels, and I prefer those up front.
So two screen shots to show; one with the Penteo in work with about 10% rear channel push (actually used 0 -flat rear channel push on this one) and also that you can adjust the rear Gain up a little as it's mixing. I had already used an Adobe Audition Stereo Pre-Synth at 200, and didn't need the extra rear channel push. However I'm still experimenting as to one or the other or maybe some of both.
And the second screen shot shows the channel swap I did to get the vocals up front. It looks odd, but it's just a 90 degree rotation to the left, which puts all the vocals up front. We can adjust some of this, and who's to say what should go where once a program like Penteo does its magic, it's best to suit oneself.

And no, I haven't even gotten into what Reaper is capable of yet.

 

[Albert Dagger]

Although I cannot send a 4-channel signal to a receiver through HDMI, either, I can send the Penteo quad mix in realtime inside a 5.1 signal to the receiver (with empty center and LFE channels). I first set the number of channels to 6, then select upmix output = 4.0, and route/send channels 3/4 of the quad upmix to channels 5/6 of the receiver. Even if the upmix output is 4.0, the available output channels is still 6.

And you can render/save the upmixed quad to either a 4-channel FLAC or a 6-channel FLAC (again with empty center and LFE channels). The trick/workaround of saving a quad source (for example, Blu ray discs with a quad source, like the Chicago Quadio) to a 6-channel FLAC for compatibility has been discussed elsewhere in the forums.

To save the Penteo upmixed quad to a 6-channel FLAC, I use the "plugin pin-connector" on the track to route channels 3/4 of the upmix to channels 5/6 of the output (see attached image) -- I don't know if there's another way to do this, but this works for me. I also tried using the input and output order in the Penteo settings described in the original post, but it didn't seem to work for me.

I prefer to send the original/unprocessed stereo source to the front L,R channels to maintain a full sound in the front, and I only use the rear channels from the Pento upmix. I create two tracks in Reaper from the same stereo source:
(1) The original stereo source is sent to the L/R channels of the receiver and/or saved to FLAC.
(2) The rear channels of the Penteo upmix are sent to the rear channels of the receiver and/or saved to FLAC.


I actually do not bother saving the upmixes to FLAC -- I just play the the stereo file in real time using JRiver. The JRiver ouput is sent to the 'ReaRoute ASIO' function of Reaper, and Reaper takes this as the input.

Great, that works!

 

[bracelis]

I mentioned in my previous post that I use JRiver for playback and send the output to Reaper using the "ReaRoute" feature and it's upmixed in realtime / on the fly. I also send the output from other Windows applications (including streaming apps like YouTube and Amazon Music HD) to Reaper for upmixing in realtime, but using a different method described below.

I'm using an external USB audio interface (RME Fireface UCX) which happens to have a "Loopback" feature which allows me to do this (see attached image).
(1) The Windows app (Amazon Music, YouTube, etc.) audio is sent to
(2) the default Windows audio device [ "ADAT(3+4)" in this case ],
(3) which is one of the "Hardware Inputs" of the audio interface.
(4) The audio is then routed to one of the "Software Playbacks".
Normally, this would then be sent to the outputs of the audio interface (example to speakers).
But instead of sending the output to speakers, I turn on the "Loopback" function of the audio interface on the playback channels.
Windows is then able to use this audio as if it was a hardware input.
(5) This is then used by Reaper as an input, the same way it would use an actual Microphone or Optical/Coaxial input.
(6) Then the audio from the track(s) in Reaper is sent/routed to 6 channels of the "Hardware Inputs" of the USB interface.
(7) And finally those 6 channels are sent to the "Software Playback" section, and sent to 6 speakers connected to the audio interface.

Notes:
* My desktop speaker setup is 2+2+2 (quad with 2 height channels).
And I select output = Atmos 5.1.2 in Penteo, with the LFE turned off in the Penteo upmix setting.
I only use the rear channels + height channels from the Penteo upmix, and not the L,C,R channels.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I prefer to send the original/unprocessed stereo source to the front L,R speakers (when upmixing a stereo source), so the speaker/playback configuration in this case is:
1,2 (L,R) = Original / unprocessed stereo source
3,4 = Rear channels from Penteo upmix
5,6 = the ".2" height channels from the Penteo upmix

* When using the "Loopback" input of the audio interface, I need to select"Audio system = ASIO" in the Reaper options/preferences, and I can only send the output to the audio interface / desktop speakers when this option is selected, and not to the other devices such as WASAPI (which is the setting that would be used to send to a receiver, as described in the original post). This is fine for me, since I do most of my listening on the desktop speakers, and if I use the receiver as the output, I let the receiver do the upmixing anyway. The only time that I really need to use the receiver is when playing Atmos / DTS X tracks, which cannot be decoded on the desktop hardware/software.

 

[Albert Dagger]

I prefer to send the original/unprocessed stereo source to the front L,R channels to maintain a full sound in the front, and I only use the rear channels from the Pento upmix. I create two tracks in Reaper from the same stereo source:
(1) The original stereo source is sent to the L/R channels of the receiver and/or saved to FLAC.
(2) The rear channels of the Penteo upmix are sent to the rear channels of the receiver and/or saved to FLAC.

I like your process, but I think that sending the original and unprocessed stereo source to the front L/R channels will not allow you to downmix the Penteo upmixed files.

 

[bracelis]

I like your process, but I think that sending the original and unprocessed stereo source to the front L/R channels will not allow you to downmix the Penteo upmixed files.

The fact that I have the original, completely unprocessed stereo source saved in the FLAC means that I can simply use that if I want to listen to the original, completely unprocessed stereo source -- no need for downmixing. This is easily accomplished in JRiver (see attached image) if I use the "No upmixing or downmixing" option. To prove that this works, in the attached example image I used one of the songs on The Doors Blu Ray disc (Quad) where all the drums are in the rear channels in the quad source, and I don't hear any drums at all when I listen to it on (stereo) headphones when using the "No downmixing" option.

And besides, I also mentioned that I don't actually bother saving the upmix to FLAC files, I simply use JRiver to send the output to Reaper in realtime. One of the features of JRiver is that you can filter/group the songs in the music library -- for example, with a click of a button I can show all the songs that are multi-channel. If I save the 'fake' upmixed songs in my JRiver music library, I will not be able to differentiate between the 'fake' upmixed songs and the real multi-channel songs, they will now all appear as multi-channel.

The only issue with upmixing the strereo sources on the fly is that I would need to change settings -- upmix a stereo signal using Penteo, and then change the settings to not upmix when listening to another song which has a multi-channel source which doesn't require upmixing. That's the nice thing about using a Receiver to upmix -- it automatically detects the number of channels and does the upmixing (or not) based on the number of channels of the source. Would be nice if there's a way to do this sort of thing in Reaper, for example, if it's a stereo source, turn on the Penteo FX, otherwise turn it off. Or within the Penteo FX itself -- instead of manually selecting the number of input channels in the Penteo FX settings, let Penteo detect the number of input channels -- as I mentioned in my previous post, I use Penteo to upmix with height channels on the output (x.x.2), and I do this upmixing even for multi-channel (5.0, quad, 5,1,) sources.

And going back to your point about downmixing a multi-channel track to stereo -- Most multi-channel albmums/discs will have separate stereo and muti-channel tracks of the same song on the album. If I want to listen to stereo, I would play the stereo version. Similarly if I have two copies of the same song -- one stereo and the other a multi-channel (with fake upmix), -- I would also use the stereo file if I want to listen to it on stereo. And I would, of course, not delete the original stereo files.

The "issue" of downmixing to stereo is probably irrelevant to most of us here in the forum -- it's relevant for example when an upmixed track is included in a program/movie which is broadcast to cable TV with a dolby digital 5.1 signal, and you listen to the movie at home using stereo speakers.

And I also believe that batch upmixing is fine, but I tend to want to work with each song individually as they all have things to fine tune.

Once I worked on Donovan's Cosmic Wheels some, I noticed the main vocals were coming in from the right side channels, and I prefer those up front.

This is a prime example of why I prefer to keep the original stereo source in the front speakers, to maintain the front stage.