Proper front-rear balance

[oelli]

Hi, I own the great Surround Master v2 and use it to play back SQ encoded material. I use two "Devialet Expert PRO" stereo amplifiers, one for the front speakers and one for the rear speakers. The amplifiers display the volume levels in dB, so I can precisely set the volume levels.
For SACD surround playback I have determined the correct front-rear volume settings using some test tones provided by the player.
But when playing SQ (and also QS) encoded material via the Surround Master with the same settings the rear speakers always appear to be too loud.
The Surround Master v2 has knobs to adjust the level of its outputs individually but for doing this correctly I need a reference SQ and QS material that has equal level on each channel. Ideally some encoded WAV or FLAC file to properly set up the Surround Master v2 balance.

Is something available for download?

Thanks, Thomas

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Hi, I own the great Surround Master v2 and use it to play back SQ encoded material. I use two "Devialet Expert PRO" stereo amplifiers, one for the front speakers and one for the rear speakers. The amplifiers display the volume levels in dB, so I can precisely set the volume levels.
For SACD surround playback I have determined the correct front-rear volume settings using some test tones provided by the player.
But when playing SQ (and also QS) encoded material via the Surround Master with the same settings the rear speakers always appear to be too loud.
The Surround Master v2 has knobs to adjust the level of its outputs individually but for doing this correctly I need a reference SQ and QS material that has equal level on each channel. Ideally some encoded WAV or FLAC file to properly set up the Surround Master v2 balance.

Is something available for download?

Thanks, Thomas

Hi Thomas, welcome to the QQ!
First, I’m sure there’s something out there that will have that basic base line equal channel check; however:
I don’t believe any one setting is going to work for all material. Each title will have its own sweet spot setting. Also, who’s to say what the folks that mixed each title had in mind? Then, you add in your speakers and how they perform within your room for acoustics and you’ll hear each album/song may require slight adjustments to sound right- for you. I found it was very helpful when I went to an older Sansui receiver that had not just individual channel volume controls, but tone control as well. Of course that’s purely a Quad situation.
Ultimately, what will sound “right” for you and your hearing? I find myself changing settings often to fit not only the music, but my mood as well.
Even @chucky3042 the main guy over at Involve, has said basically that SQ can be a bucket of shit! He may have some better answers for you.
Of course this is all very non-technical; but there are plenty of folks here that will offer up their own brand of auditory perfection

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Hi, I own the great Surround Master v2 and use it to play back SQ encoded material. I use two "Devialet Expert PRO" stereo amplifiers, one for the front speakers and one for the rear speakers. The amplifiers display the volume levels in dB, so I can precisely set the volume levels.
For SACD surround playback I have determined the correct front-rear volume settings using some test tones provided by the player.
But when playing SQ (and also QS) encoded material via the Surround Master with the same settings the rear speakers always appear to be too loud.
The Surround Master v2 has knobs to adjust the level of its outputs individually but for doing this correctly I need a reference SQ and QS material that has equal level on each channel. Ideally some encoded WAV or FLAC file to properly set up the Surround Master v2 balance.

Is something available for download?

Thanks, Thomas

Hello Thomas!
I agree with the Pupster that variances will always be there. Feeding the SM v2 into a quad receiver or pre-processor unit ( I use an Anthem AMV 30 and then Adcom 555 power amps) makes it a lot easier to adjust on the fly.

As a starting point I would suggest this: Find something monophonic to play (yes, mono) & listen to just the front speakers & SMv2 level set somewhere nominal such as 12:00 straight up and in 4.0 not 5.1 and set the decode mode to Involve/QS. Use the left front as reference & adjust right front level to match so you get solid center front phantom imaging. Next pull the right ch input on the SM v2 & turn on the rear power amps. This will give you a center left decoded output. Adjust rear left for equal loudness with the left front. Center side imaging is of course not as precise as center front but you should still be able to match loudness. Remove the left ch input to the SM & plug in the right input. This is center right decoded output & level match right rear to right front. Plug back in both inputs to the SM & enjoy!

Don't obsess too much about doing this in just the QS & not SQ decode. If the SM is functioning right this will put you very close for both modes.

I do have some QS white noise test tones I'd be glad to share if this method doesn't satisfy you.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Maybe I view all this a little differently and basically; because instead of letting the equipment tell me how I should be hearing the music (from technical electronic specs that I have no clue about anyway); I adjust my gear to hear the music the way I want to hear it.
What I really need is a remote Quad joy stick

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Maybe I view all this a little differently and basically; because instead of letting the equipment tell me how I should be hearing the music (from technical electronic specs that I have no clue about anyway); I adjust my gear to hear the music the way I want to hear it.
What I really need is a remote Quad joy stick

Actually I agree with that POV as well. Remember I'm the guy with a modified Chase RLC-1 as the front end to my SM. I happily adjust not just L/R input balance to the decoder but phase balance as well. When it sounds right, it is right.

Having said that I also believe that you need a more objective starting point that you can always return to. I don't have a fancy set up for balance levels like many newer recievers have. But my Anthem does have nice white noise for each ch & I use use a SPL meter to adjust all outputs to matching. If something seems not quite right at least I know my basic output levels aren't the culprit. Then with the AVM 30's balance set to neutral I adjust the SM v2 outputs. Now actually I use QS white noise for that & match all outputs with the SPL meter. Under these circumstances I know I am hearing movie/music as was intended & if I want to make a change I do. But I always that reference starting point to return to.

 

[marpow]

Maybe I view all this a little differently and basically; because instead of letting the equipment tell me how I should be hearing the music (from technical electronic specs that I have no clue about anyway); I adjust my gear to hear the music the way I want to hear it.
What I really need is a remote Quad joy stick

Thanks for reminding me of that J-Pup, sometimes I get stubborn and say to my self why is that rear speaker not as loud as the other, and I sit and think of all this stuff when in a half a second I can just turn it up or down.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Actually I agree with that POV as well. Remember I'm the guy with a modified Chase RLC-1 as the front end to my SM. I happily adjust not just L/R input balance to the decoder but phase balance as well. When it sounds right, it is right.

Having said that I also believe that you need a more objective starting point that you can always return to. I don't have a fancy set up for balance levels like many newer recievers have. But my Anthem does have nice white noise for each ch & I use use a SPL meter to adjust all outputs to matching. If something seems not quite right at least I know my basic output levels aren't the culprit. Then with the AVM 30's balance set to neutral I adjust the SM v2 outputs. Now actually I use QS white noise for that & match all outputs with the SPL meter. Under these circumstances I know I am hearing movie/music as was intended & if I want to make a change I do. But I always that reference starting point to return to.

Seems like a good way to approach it; after all I'm not trying to be Punxsutawney Phil either

 

[oelli]

Actually I agree with that POV as well. Remember I'm the guy with a modified Chase RLC-1 as the front end to my SM. I happily adjust not just L/R input balance to the decoder but phase balance as well. When it sounds right, it is right.

Having said that I also believe that you need a more objective starting point that you can always return to. I don't have a fancy set up for balance levels like many newer recievers have. But my Anthem does have nice white noise for each ch & I use use a SPL meter to adjust all outputs to matching. If something seems not quite right at least I know my basic output levels aren't the culprit. Then with the AVM 30's balance set to neutral I adjust the SM v2 outputs. Now actually I use QS white noise for that & match all outputs with the SPL meter. Under these circumstances I know I am hearing movie/music as was intended & if I want to make a change I do. But I always that reference starting point to return to.

Thanks for all the answers.

I have done the procedure with the mono signal that Sonic Wiz described and it gave me some starting point.

My experience with all this surround music stuff is also that it needs some adjustments for individual recordings but I think some "neutral" starting point is also needed. Movies are much less sensitive than music. I listen to a lot of classical music that is recorded in surround and here the rear speakers reproduce mostly room ambience. If everything is set up correctly this can give the illusion that my small listening room is replaced with the big concert hall. The intensity of the room reflections that are recoded depend a lot on the kind of instrument and also on how loud the instrument (or orchestra) is playing.
What can be very annoying is if at some points within a track an instrument suddenly more or less jumps to the back or to the side because the rear level is set too high.

Using an SPL meter and white noise from my OPPO player was my first attempt to calibrate the levels of all 4 speakers. But when listening this always resulted in the impression, that the rear speakers (which also have less distance to my ear than the front) are too dominant. So I now do the setup by listen to the white noise and adjust everything by ear.

My speaker setup is not exactly like it was in the quad times but the rears are more sideways and only a little bit behind the head like it is recommended for SACD surround. But I have at least compensated for the difference in distance between front and rear speakers to my ears (even when using the Surround Master as source) because my amplifiers can add some delay to the signal.

What is your experience with different rear speaker placement?

 

[marpow]

This is a nice little link that I have used Wendy Carlos Surround

 

[jaybird100]

Hi, I own the great Surround Master v2 and use it to play back SQ encoded material. I use two "Devialet Expert PRO" stereo amplifiers, one for the front speakers and one for the rear speakers. The amplifiers display the volume levels in dB, so I can precisely set the volume levels.
For SACD surround playback I have determined the correct front-rear volume settings using some test tones provided by the player.
But when playing SQ (and also QS) encoded material via the Surround Master with the same settings the rear speakers always appear to be too loud.
The Surround Master v2 has knobs to adjust the level of its outputs individually but for doing this correctly I need a reference SQ and QS material that has equal level on each channel. Ideally some encoded WAV or FLAC file to properly set up the Surround Master v2 balance.

Is something available for download?

Thanks, Thomas

The best way, probably the most satisfying, is to adjust them by ear. In many setups, you can get as "precise" as you want to, but some people like a little more in the rear. I'm one of them! A lot of it also depends on where you sit in the room, in relation to the speakers. Don't be too hung up on precise settings; go with what sounds best to you.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Thanks for all the answers.

I have done the procedure with the mono signal that Sonic Wiz described and it gave me some starting point.

My experience with all this surround music stuff is also that it needs some adjustments for individual recordings but I think some "neutral" starting point is also needed. Movies are much less sensitive than music. I listen to a lot of classical music that is recorded in surround and here the rear speakers reproduce mostly room ambience. If everything is set up correctly this can give the illusion that my small listening room is replaced with the big concert hall. The intensity of the room reflections that are recoded depend a lot on the kind of instrument and also on how loud the instrument (or orchestra) is playing.
What can be very annoying is if at some points within a track an instrument suddenly more or less jumps to the back or to the side because the rear level is set too high.

Using an SPL meter and white noise from my OPPO player was my first attempt to calibrate the levels of all 4 speakers. But when listening this always resulted in the impression, that the rear speakers (which also have less distance to my ear than the front) are too dominant. So I now do the setup by listen to the white noise and adjust everything by ear.

My speaker setup is not exactly like it was in the quad times but the rears are more sideways and only a little bit behind the head like it is recommended for SACD surround. But I have at least compensated for the difference in distance between front and rear speakers to my ears (even when using the Surround Master as source) because my amplifiers can add some delay to the signal.

What is your experience with different rear speaker placement?

Hi again!
Sounds like the speaker lay out you have is close to what is generally accepted as the standard for home theater set up:

In a surround set up I think the core item is it must be set up for good 2 ch stereo 1st of all or it will never image right with surround sound. The problem I have with the above arrangement in that regard is the front L/R speakers are too close together. With some exceptions, the stereo width extends only between the speakers & this set up would give too narrow a sound stage. My front speakers are 45 deg angles & this gives a nice wide sound stage but I still have rock solid center front phantom image. It is also interesting to note that with a 7.1 set up the front speakers are now recommended to be set at +- 45 deg.

My rear speaqkers are also at 45 deg from center back. My point of concern with the rear speaker placement in the diagram is it presents too much audio from the sides. I see these are as rear ch speakers & I want the sound to do just that, come from the rear.

I am lucky to have all speakers including center from in a classic quad arrangement of a square all very carefully adjusted for equidistant spacing. I have zero delay on any of them. Of course I see the only way to get good side imaging and improved center back imaging is to use an 8 ch set up, basically 7.1 with center back. So my set up isn't perfect. It's just the best I can do with my room layout. I imagine there's many variations of speaker layouts of the QQ members here to suit various room designs & needs. I also am sure everyone here has devoted considerable effort to make them the best they can even if they are probably quite different in set up.

I am very interested in the power amps you mentioned. When I google those I only find very expensive units that look more like lap tops then power amps. And no meters on them. Could you give some more info? Thanks!

 

[marpow]

Hi again!
Sounds like the speaker lay out you have is close to what is generally accepted as the standard for home theater set up:
View attachment 49468

In a surround set up I think the core item is it must be set up for good 2 ch stereo 1st of all or it will never image right with surround sound. The problem I have with the above arrangement in that regard is the front L/R speakers are too close together. With some exceptions, the stereo width extends only between the speakers & this set up would give too narrow a sound stage. My front speakers are 45 deg angles & this gives a nice wide sound stage but I still have rock solid center front phantom image. It is also interesting to note that with a 7.1 set up the front speakers are now recommended to be set at +- 45 deg.

My rear speaqkers are also at 45 deg from center back. My point of concern with the rear speaker placement in the diagram is it presents too much audio from the sides. I see these are as rear ch speakers & I want the sound to do just that, come from the rear.

I am lucky to have all speakers including center from in a classic quad arrangement of a square all very carefully adjusted for equidistant spacing. I have zero delay on any of them. Of course I see the only way to get good side imaging and improved center back imaging is to use an 8 ch set up, basically 7.1 with center back. So my set up isn't perfect. It's just the best I can do with my room layout. I imagine there's many variations of speaker layouts of the QQ members here to suit various room designs & needs. I also am sure everyone here has devoted considerable effort to make them the best they can even if they are probably quite different in set up.

I am very interested in the power amps you mentioned. When I google those I only find very expensive units that look more like lap tops then power amps. And no meters on them. Could you give some more info? Thanks!

Good stuff, SW. As everybody knows I am planning my new room, (existing bedroom) that is 12' X 14', I will be looking at the 12' wall.
I have looked online trying to find a speaker placement calculator, but not very successful.
I am thinking either 3 or 2 theater seats, 5.? on the floor. I submitted a question to REL for there recommendation, either 1 or 2 subs, I currently have the REL S5, and finally ATMOS ceiling speakers either 2 or 4?
I am more confident with room EQ and convinced that I am comfortable with DIRACLIVE2, REW, and AUDESSY, all are within my skill set.
I know that speaker placement can be a massive experiment, move a foot here or an inch there, subs front, subs one front, one rear, on and on. But I would like to get at least very close on initial set up especially the ceiling speakers which is a one and only endeavor.
I would like to think that I have enough experience to do this without hiring a professional installer but I do get a little nervous as this most certainly will be my last setup. I tell my wife this is our coffin, never moving again, well I guess after retirement California taxes could make us move?
Sorry, long winded, but shelter in place really gets my brain working as there is hardly anything else to do, I've done about a hundred projects in the last 4 weeks.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Great to point out the stereo first @Sonik Wiz
I recall when I first set up my speakers, what threw me.
I have a large room with family room, dining area to the right and kitchen behind, open design. My Martin Logan fronts were first set up with the right one about a foot off the wall (typical wallboard) but the left one was in front of a gas fireplace (just at the end). I was positioned equidistant between them seeking that sweet spot; trouble is all the phantom center stuff kept sounding like it was coming more from 3/4 left of center. Come to find out, that left speaker ( being just in front of the glass doors of the fireplace) was reflecting more sound off that harder glass surface) So once I moved that left speaker more to the left out of the way of the fireplace; it was obvious the phantom center repositioned back to the center. Just shows that even though the speakers are pointed away from the back wall (they are rear ported) that the extra reflective surface made a huge difference.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Good stuff, SW. As everybody knows I am planning my new room, (existing bedroom) that is 12' X 14', I will be looking at the 12' wall.
I have looked online trying to find a speaker placement calculator, but not very successful.
I am thinking either 3 or 2 theater seats, 5.? on the floor. I submitted a question to REL for there recommendation, either 1 or 2 subs, I currently have the REL S5, and finally ATMOS ceiling speakers either 2 or 4?
I am more confident with room EQ and convinced that I am comfortable with DIRACLIVE2, REW, and AUDESSY, all are within my skill set.
I know that speaker placement can be a massive experiment, move a foot here or an inch there, subs front, subs one front, one rear, on and on. But I would like to get at least very close on initial set up especially the ceiling speakers which is a one and only endeavor.
I would like to think that I have enough experience to do this without hiring a professional installer but I do get a little nervous as this most certainly will be my last setup. I tell my wife this is our coffin, never moving again, well I guess after retirement California taxes could make us move?
Sorry, long winded, but shelter in place really gets my brain working as there is hardly anything else to do, I've done about a hundred projects in the last 4 weeks.

Back in the 80's it seems to me great advances in audio was happening. Meanwhile for video we had.... VHS. Or of course Sony Beta but probably not. As video quality improved people found what a good home audio system could bring to at home viewing & things have never been the same. Two speaker stereo pretty simple. Dobly Atmos, not so much.

I have never thought of my set up as a home theater. It is my Bassment listening room that also happens to have a projector & an 8' screen. Not huge. It could go bigger but it would compromise my audio set up. And there in lies the truth: I could survive with out the video element & be quite happy but take my music away & I'd be pretty miserable.

So I've never had the need to contemplate HT seating as you are. I have a comfy folding chair in the sweet spot & a couch between the rear speakers that you can get three people on, 4 if they are skinny & have good hygiene. My room is a bit bigger than yours about 13' x 24' & I'm looking at the 13' end. Questions you're solving about seating, etc are even more important to work out in a smaller room. I am following your project & look forward to the next update.

Unlike you I have not done a 100 projects I wish I could say that. There's been only 2 decent weather days around here this week & I got a lot of yard work done. Other than that it's been cold, windy & rainy. I know how GOS feels but I'm still not gonna organize & neaten up my cables.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Great to point out the stereo first @Sonik Wiz
I recall when I first set up my speakers, what threw me.
I have a large room with family room, dining area to the right and kitchen behind, open design. My Martin Logan fronts were first set up with the right one about a foot off the wall (typical wallboard) but the left one was in front of a gas fireplace (just at the end). I was positioned equidistant between them seeking that sweet spot; trouble is all the phantom center stuff kept sounding like it was coming more from 3/4 left of center. Come to find out, that left speaker ( being just in front of the glass doors of the fireplace) was reflecting more sound off that harder glass surface) So once I moved that left speaker more to the left out of the way of the fireplace; it was obvious the phantom center repositioned back to the center. Just shows that even though the speakers are pointed away from the back wall (they are rear ported) that the extra reflective surface made a huge difference.

Roger, that.
When I 1st set up my system it seemed like I was always throwing the balance towards right front. It measured level matched but didn't sound that way. In my room I have the classic LEDE arrangement with floor to ceiling convoluted polyurethane behind & curving around a bit to the sides of the front ch speakers. For reason hard to explain in words the overall room geometry is not quite symmetrical & the right side speakers sit a little closer to the side walls. So it took me the longest time to realize the poly foam was soaking up a bit more of the high treble than compared to left front. I boosted the tweeter level control up & all measures good, sounds good.

 

[oelli]

Hi again!
Sounds like the speaker lay out you have is close to what is generally accepted as the standard for home theater set up:
View attachment 49468

In a surround set up I think the core item is it must be set up for good 2 ch stereo 1st of all or it will never image right with surround sound. The problem I have with the above arrangement in that regard is the front L/R speakers are too close together. With some exceptions, the stereo width extends only between the speakers & this set up would give too narrow a sound stage. My front speakers are 45 deg angles & this gives a nice wide sound stage but I still have rock solid center front phantom image. It is also interesting to note that with a 7.1 set up the front speakers are now recommended to be set at +- 45 deg.

My rear speaqkers are also at 45 deg from center back. My point of concern with the rear speaker placement in the diagram is it presents too much audio from the sides. I see these are as rear ch speakers & I want the sound to do just that, come from the rear.

I am lucky to have all speakers including center from in a classic quad arrangement of a square all very carefully adjusted for equidistant spacing. I have zero delay on any of them. Of course I see the only way to get good side imaging and improved center back imaging is to use an 8 ch set up, basically 7.1 with center back. So my set up isn't perfect. It's just the best I can do with my room layout. I imagine there's many variations of speaker layouts of the QQ members here to suit various room designs & needs. I also am sure everyone here has devoted considerable effort to make them the best they can even if they are probably quite different in set up.

I am very interested in the power amps you mentioned. When I google those I only find very expensive units that look more like lap tops then power amps. And no meters on them. Could you give some more info? Thanks!

Yes my setup is now like the one shown in your diagram. This is the setup that is also recommended for multichannel SACDs. Previous my listening position was more in direction of the rear speakers. So that the rears where basically sideways and the front speakers with less than 30°. This also worked for stereo and I had no problems with a too narrow front stage. My speakers easily extend the virtual stage outside of their outer edges.
So I am currently experimenting with different listening positions. My room is small and I sit only about 190 cm away from the front speakers and 165 cm from the rear once.

The pure quadraphonic speaker placement you are using is not possible in my room. But I find it great that it is possible for you and you have no problems with acoustic holes between the speakers.

The amps I am using are integrated amps, so pre and power amp combined. They use a special analog-digital hybrid amplification technique and are stereo amps with a lot of features and configuration possibilities and also integrate network streaming, digital inputs and analog inputs (including phono).
For the front speakers (and when only playing in stereo) I use a Devialet Expert PRO 250 and for the rear speakers a Devialet Expert PRO 140. For playing digital multi channel content I use a modified OPPO UDP-203 that offers separat digital outputs for front and back which I have connected with the two amps. For analog quad I use the Sourround Master v2 that is connected to the analog inputs of the amps.
Stereo marterial I stream directly to the Devialet Expert PRO 250 when digital or when analog via an Rega RP-10 record player.
The amps do not have meters but a round display on the top that can show various information and there is even implemented a virtual meter (but with bars and not with needles).

 

[oelli]

Good stuff, SW. As everybody knows I am planning my new room, (existing bedroom) that is 12' X 14', I will be looking at the 12' wall.
I have looked online trying to find a speaker placement calculator, but not very successful.
I am thinking either 3 or 2 theater seats, 5.? on the floor. I submitted a question to REL for there recommendation, either 1 or 2 subs, I currently have the REL S5, and finally ATMOS ceiling speakers either 2 or 4?
I am more confident with room EQ and convinced that I am comfortable with DIRACLIVE2, REW, and AUDESSY, all are within my skill set.
I know that speaker placement can be a massive experiment, move a foot here or an inch there, subs front, subs one front, one rear, on and on. But I would like to get at least very close on initial set up especially the ceiling speakers which is a one and only endeavor.
I would like to think that I have enough experience to do this without hiring a professional installer but I do get a little nervous as this most certainly will be my last setup. I tell my wife this is our coffin, never moving again, well I guess after retirement California taxes could make us move?
Sorry, long winded, but shelter in place really gets my brain working as there is hardly anything else to do, I've done about a hundred projects in the last 4 weeks.

Great opportunity if you have a dedicated room for home cinema. Do you already know which speakers you will be using? You should test everything with real equipment. Calculations can not replace that. And keep everything as flexible as possible so you can readjust and try out different placements. Also technology regularly changes and improves. Today we have ATMOS or AURO-3D but what is tomorrow? But as I understand it (I have no experience with ATMOS and AURO-3D personally) this are object based formats that can adapt to different speaker layouts which makes the thing a little bit easier.
In my opinion good multichannel music reproduction is much more delicate than film soundtracks in regard of speaker positioning and volume balance.
Good luck with your project.

 

[marpow]

Thanks Celli, my foundation will be 5.1 and the loud speakers are B&W, this is what I have now. Yes, my existing rig will go from down stairs living room to upstairs bedroom. I am slightly entertaining the idea of 7.1 as the foundation but with a 12' X 14' room I think it is overkill plus I want it to look aesthetically pleasing. I have no intention of buying anything until I make the actual move and see how the room sounds.

Speaking of overkill, I have the REL S5 sub and I contacted REL as to what they would recommend for my upcoming move and they suggested there HT 3D system, 3 subs. Part of me is intrigued by there suggestion and part of me thinks this is overkill. Here is there response.

My advice is to seriously consider REL 3D. This is a suite of 3 RELs that cover:
1) front L/R speakers
2) center channel speaker
3) rear LR speakers

Since modern films are mastered to imply a 3D space front/back ans side to side, the high level connections to the front/center/rear channels provide this spacial indication in the low frequency effects.
Please see the following articles published at REL.net on REL 3D.
REL’s New HT-3D Format: Professional Quality Theatre Just Got More Affordable
Building A REL 3D System - Pairing Serie HT With Additional RELs

Looking at the speaker pairing app at REL.net, it suggests a new REL Serie S S/510 for the front, a T/7i for the center and another S/510 for the rear when using the 804s.
Since you already have the S/5, this can be used for either the center or the rear. If you are intending the use the 805s for the rear, I would use the S/5 back there.

Let me know if you have further questions or concerns.

 

[Beefalo]

Thanks Celli, my foundation will be 5.1 and the loud speakers are B&W, this is what I have now. Yes, my existing rig will go from down stairs living room to upstairs bedroom. I am slightly entertaining the idea of 7.1 as the foundation but with a 12' X 14' room I think it is overkill plus I want it to look aesthetically pleasing. I have no intention of buying anything until I make the actual move and see how the room sounds.

Speaking of overkill, I have the REL S5 sub and I contacted REL as to what they would recommend for my upcoming move and they suggested there HT 3D system, 3 subs. Part of me is intrigued by there suggestion and part of me thinks this is overkill. Here is there response.

My advice is to seriously consider REL 3D. This is a suite of 3 RELs that cover:
1) front L/R speakers
2) center channel speaker
3) rear LR speakers

Since modern films are mastered to imply a 3D space front/back ans side to side, the high level connections to the front/center/rear channels provide this spacial indication in the low frequency effects.
Please see the following articles published at REL.net on REL 3D.
REL’s New HT-3D Format: Professional Quality Theatre Just Got More Affordable
Building A REL 3D System - Pairing Serie HT With Additional RELs

Looking at the speaker pairing app at REL.net, it suggests a new REL Serie S S/510 for the front, a T/7i for the center and another S/510 for the rear when using the 804s.
Since you already have the S/5, this can be used for either the center or the rear. If you are intending the use the 805s for the rear, I would use the S/5 back there.

Let me know if you have further questions or concerns.

I really like the sound and feel from multiple subs.
You can run them at a lower volume and it's impossible to tell where the bass is coming from.

 

[marpow]

I really like the sound and feel from multiple subs.
You can run them at a lower volume and it's impossible to tell where the bass is coming from.

I agree, the more and more I read/watch multiple subs really seem to be a good thing.
Do you think a sub for center, fronts, and rear (3 subs) is excessive? I know everything is trial and error but if I started with two I think I would go one at front of room and one at rear or both at front.
The idea of three almost seems easier as you know the placement will be roughly at two in front and one in rear.
I think I am finally starting to understand the setup of multiples, crossover, etc.
Fascinating subject.
I responded to REL's answer to me, it seems there literature/videos are mostly with the movie watcher in mind, so I said my preference is music listening, waiting for a response.