"Quiet" Quads (mostly LPs) - Any SQ Encoded?

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fizzywiggs41

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The person listening to it cares. What if he does not have a quad system?

- A person listening to the recording over mono AM radio will not hear anything that is encoded at center back in either QS or SQ.

- A person with an FM car radio who is traveling may not get enough signal to activate the stereo demodulator. He is in the same boat the mono listener is in. He does not hear anything encoded to center back.

Here is something I noticed that some QQ members are confused on:

They seem to think that, because the QS speakers are LF RF LB RB and the DS speakers are L F R S, the recordings meant for each system are necessarily different.

The only thing that would make the recordings different for each system is if the mixing engineer wants to put a sound in a certain speaker.

Since I pan each part to where I want the sound image to be (not to where a speaker is), my RM mixes will play equally well on QS and DS (assuming no side imaging problems). Any DS sounds the same, no matter whether the basic DS, or PL-I or PL-II is used.

They will also play on EV-4, DQ, and DD (diamond) by moving the speakers or your chair.

Just how many encodes do you think actual target a strong signal in CB ?

And listening in mono ? Well come on now , it's mono ! Not at all audiophile quality is it ?

Matrix quad was designed for a good matrix quad system. Stereo was a secondary consideration for compatibility.
I think it rather unfortunate that mono listeners had far too much say over how any Quad Matrix recordings should sound .

Mostly Audiophiles that failed to grasp the potential of something new and exciting . I think it's a MAJOR injustice that they had so much pull on how a recording should sound in Quad , mostly ambience in the rears .
And a further injustice is that they denied for so long that quad SQ was a viable format by insisting Columbia Records (CBS) should release separate stereo and SQ albums , rather than going single inventory as most Record Store owners (Chains) ,kept calling for Yearly , and even Monthly !
That fact and a lack of recordings in quad were some of the biggest complaints Record Companies involved in quad releases heard over and over .

You can find this to be a regular occurrence , by reading through Billboard's August Quad Specials , published throughout the mid 70's .
No doubt these topics weren't exclusive to Billboard , as other Audio Magazine Publications from the 70's, pointed out these short comings as well.

And MONO ! Really ?
Given the actual number of quad matrix encoded recordings that got played over AM radio , one should think this Center Back placement in a quad encode, is a non issue. Most especially for people like myself that found quad matrix and discrete recordings the new reality for all future recordings .

I think far too many Mono and Stereo Audiophiles were stuck in the past when it came to 1970's quad recordings . One of the many reasons that put nails or spikes in the "Quad coffin".
It's too bad they had far too much influence on the future of Quadraphonics , which by the way seemed to get too much in the manner of negative reviews .....even from it's onset.
With very few exceptions , imho.
 

fizzywiggs41

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My mistake. It was a track from "The smoker you drink". A friend of mine sent me the track a while back when I was looking for QS tracks to "study". It was the song "Bookends". Sorry for all the confusion there.
Yes , Joe Walsh-The Smoker You Drink..... in QS is one of my favourite Demo quads . Too bad they , that is ABC Dunhill Records , couldn't have released his entire catalogue in QS .
And surely they should have considered his ABC albums with The James Gang for QS . I know The James Gang were popular in my City .

I have a follow up question if you don't mind . Did you access the regular Tommy with the LSO which was on ODE Records ? What I'm trying to ask you is , did you discover that all copies are now the QS version ? Or was that the separate QS edition you did for comparison.
I ask because there are at least 2 cd's on A&M/ODE Records that seem to have been released with the quad matrix versions .
 
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kfbkfb

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^^^
...it is difficult to obtain a stereo disc that is artistically acceptable in mono, and this obstacle will be more noticeable with quad discs.


The stereo to mono downmix issue has become important again with many listeners using the single speaker in their smartphones to listen to stereo music (or music video soundtracks).

(The Smoker You Drink... is one of my few QS encoded albums, I don't have a logic assisted QS decoder, but I've listened to it thru [Pioneer QX-747 QS], DynaQuad and DPL decoders - sounds good thru the last two too)


Kirk Bayne
 

fizzywiggs41

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Yea, but I think they just want to hear the tune , regardless. And I doubt that many or any are matrix encoded.

Not a problem for me , as I listen in stereo on my ear buds and nothing on my tablet I've heard is Quad Matrix Encoded.

The exception would of course be on my mp3 player ....where I have a few (not many) MP , and ,
SQ encoded albums .

And I don't have any problems with CB or center channels fwiw. In fact I find great satisfaction with some of the "wide stereo panned" recordings on the mp3 device. Almost all of these are from the late 60's.
Hence my thread on Wide Stereo Panned Recordings .
If interested you can find it on QQ's upmix posts/threads specifically ; Stereo To Surround Upmixing.
 

MidiMagic

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Just how many encodes do you think actual target a strong signal in CB ?

And listening in mono ? Well come on now , it's mono ! Not at all audiophile quality is it ?

Matrix quad was designed for a good matrix quad system. Stereo was a secondary consideration for compatibility.
I think it rather unfortunate that mono listeners had far too much say over how any Quad Matrix recordings should sound .

Mostly Audiophiles that failed to grasp the potential of something new and exciting . I think it's a MAJOR injustice that they had so much pull on how a recording should sound in Quad , mostly ambience in the rears .
And a further injustice is that they denied for so long that quad SQ was a viable format by insisting Columbia Records (CBS) should release separate stereo and SQ albums , rather than going single inventory as most Record Store owners (Chains) ,kept calling for Yearly , and even Monthly !
That fact and a lack of recordings in quad were some of the biggest complaints Record Companies involved in quad releases heard over and over .

You can find this to be a regular occurrence , by reading through Billboard's August Quad Specials , published throughout the mid 70's .
No doubt these topics weren't exclusive to Billboard , as other Audio Magazine Publications from the 70's, pointed out these short comings as well.

And MONO ! Really ?
Given the actual number of quad matrix encoded recordings that got played over AM radio , one should think this Center Back placement in a quad encode, is a non issue. Most especially for people like myself that found quad matrix and discrete recordings the new reality for all future recordings .

I think far too many Mono and Stereo Audiophiles were stuck in the past when it came to 1970's quad recordings . One of the many reasons that put nails or spikes in the "Quad coffin".
It's too bad they had far too much influence on the future of Quadraphonics , which by the way seemed to get too much in the manner of negative reviews .....even from it's onset.
With very few exceptions , imho.
Maybe one of the problems was the FCC (Federal Communications Commission). They always required that any new system that was broadcast over the air on an existing service would provide a complete program to people who did not have the new device.

Another problem was that broadcasters were afraid of losing customers. We have to remember that in 1970-1974, not everyone had audiophile equipment and not everything was set up for audiophile reception. Our kitchen radio was tube AM. So broadcasters had to watch that stereo and mono listeners received a complete program.

Broadcasters also hated CD-4, because they could not slip-cue the records or cue them from dead stops. They produced swooping sounds if these were done. They had to back cue with the fader down and then fade up once the record achieved speed. This was true even without a CD-4 demodulator. I knew a DJ who hated anytime someone requested a song from the Elvis "Aloha via Satellite" album.

- During that period, our local rock station was AM, and it had some country segments. The two local FM stereo stations had all classical music. Rock did not go on FM here until 1979. The rock on FM during this period was from stations 50 miles away that required a large antenna (that might not get stereo).

- Of the 3 cars I was driving in that period, the '57 Chevy had an AM radio, and the two Oldsmobiles ('67 and '72) had mono AM-FM radios. Stereo-FM was an extra-cost accessory then (and usually included an 8-track). Any quad that was broadcast would have been lost. And anything encoded to center back by any available matrix system would disappear in the mono play.

- I had only one stereo FM tuner available to me. It was in a console TV-stereo in the basement. Fortunately it had jacks for tape in and tape out. I used this (and my Collaro Conquest and two 2ch tape recorders) for my major quad source equipment until 1973.

The real reason quad failed was that the marketing "experts" misread the market:
- When they started selling Q4 reel equipment it sold like hotcakes.
- I went nuts for matrix quad, but had trouble finding records.
- Unfortunately, nothing else sold like the reel units sold.
- The "experts" thought this meant people wanted discrete sound. Not true.
- I was servicing audio equipment at the time, and noticed that all of the Q4 units I ever saw were in home recording studios, not quadraphonic systems.
- Finally the experts figured this out, and dropped quad.
- TASCAM and others started producing portable studios. I have two.

With all of the hype and incompatibilities removed, surround sound evolved correctly with Dolby Surround.
 
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jaybird100

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Just how many encodes do you think actual target a strong signal in CB ?

And listening in mono ? Well come on now , it's mono ! Not at all audiophile quality is it ?

Matrix quad was designed for a good matrix quad system. Stereo was a secondary consideration for compatibility.
I think it rather unfortunate that mono listeners had far too much say over how any Quad Matrix recordings should sound .

Mostly Audiophiles that failed to grasp the potential of something new and exciting . I think it's a MAJOR injustice that they had so much pull on how a recording should sound in Quad , mostly ambience in the rears .
And a further injustice is that they denied for so long that quad SQ was a viable format by insisting Columbia Records (CBS) should release separate stereo and SQ albums , rather than going single inventory as most Record Store owners (Chains) ,kept calling for Yearly , and even Monthly !
That fact and a lack of recordings in quad were some of the biggest complaints Record Companies involved in quad releases heard over and over .

You can find this to be a regular occurrence , by reading through Billboard's August Quad Specials , published throughout the mid 70's .
No doubt these topics weren't exclusive to Billboard , as other Audio Magazine Publications from the 70's, pointed out these short comings as well.

And MONO ! Really ?
Given the actual number of quad matrix encoded recordings that got played over AM radio , one should think this Center Back placement in a quad encode, is a non issue. Most especially for people like myself that found quad matrix and discrete recordings the new reality for all future recordings .

I think far too many Mono and Stereo Audiophiles were stuck in the past when it came to 1970's quad recordings . One of the many reasons that put nails or spikes in the "Quad coffin".
It's too bad they had far too much influence on the future of Quadraphonics , which by the way seemed to get too much in the manner of negative reviews .....even from it's onset.
With very few exceptions , imho.
While it wasn't the case back in the 70's, most radios today, especially in the car, have FM stereo. The sounds that might be mixed to CB on a matrixed quad LP may vanish on a mono receiver, but not on a stereo unit. I doubt anyone uses a mono radio today for serious music listening.
 

quadaholic

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Yes , Joe Walsh-The Smoker You Drink..... in QS is one of my favourite Demo quads . Too bad they , that is ABC Dunhill Records , couldn't have released his entire catalogue in QS .
And surely they should have considered his ABC albums with The James Gang for QS . I know The James Gang were popular in my City .

I have a follow up question if you don't mind . Did you access the regular Tommy with the LSO which was on ODE Records ? What I'm trying to ask you is , did you discover that all copies are now the QS version ? Or was that the separate QS edition you did for comparison.
I ask because there are at least 2 cd's on A&M/ODE Records that seem to have been released with the quad matrix versions .
That's a good question about the Tommy thing. Those tracks were given to me by someone else for "study", so I'll try to find out where they came from. I'm admittedly not nearly as good with the documentation as a lot of other folks are.
 

MidiMagic

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While it wasn't the case back in the 70's, most radios today, especially in the car, have FM stereo. The sounds that might be mixed to CB on a matrixed quad LP may vanish on a mono receiver, but not on a stereo unit. I doubt anyone uses a mono radio today for serious music listening.
Right.

However much of the new tech is mono. Too many of the Bluetooth devices and gadgets sold today are mono. They are selling outdoor speakers, shower speakers, and other devices that are in glorious mono. Most people don't seem to care about even stereo anymore. They want geegaws.

I bought 3 mono AM/FM radios last year. I put them in the attic to keep the critters out. The critters won't notice if the center back content is missing.

The format decisions were not made today. They were made under the conditions I listed: Most radios were mono in the quad period.

I do think the double inventory was unnecessary except in the cases of CD-4 and UD-4. I thought at the time that Columbia was just trying to make more money from SQ. They probably were.
 

jaybird100

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That's a good question about the Tommy thing. Those tracks were given to me by someone else for "study", so I'll try to find out where they came from. I'm admittedly not nearly as good with the documentation as a lot of other folks
Right.

However much of the new tech is mono. Too many of the Bluetooth devices and gadgets sold today are mono. They are selling outdoor speakers, shower speakers, and other devices that are in glorious mono. Most people don't seem to care about even stereo anymore. They want geegaws.

I bought 3 mono AM/FM radios last year. I put them in the attic to keep the critters out. The critters won't notice if the center back content is missing.

The format decisions were not made today. They were made under the conditions I listed: Most radios were mono in the quad period.

I do think the double inventory was unnecessary except in the cases of CD-4 and UD-4. I thought at the time that Columbia was just trying to make more money from SQ. They probably were.
I doubt anyone listens to music seriously on a mono Bluetooth device. It would be more casual than serious. As for the "Tommy" tracks that Quadholic referred to, I provided them, and they're from the Polydor OST album, not the A&M/Ode LSO and guest artists album. I have that one, too, and am aware there were both stereo and quad versions issued. If the CD is also QS, I'd like to get my hands on that, too.
 

fizzywiggs41

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Well I am curious to know if Sony/ODE Records has issued the CD of Tommy/LSO w/guests with the QS encode intact.

I had this quad album and found the QS encode was quite good via my Sansui QSD 2 . I suppose I could purchase it the next time I come across it a give it a go.


FWIW quad cd's of (1) Rick Wakeman-6 Wives of Henry the VIII ( SQ)
..................................(2) Carole King -Tapestry. (QS)

- Are in Existence , but I believe I read only a select or certain issue of the Carole King cd is quad , not all . This may be true for the Wakeman as well .

We (me 4 sure) may now have to check out others ,in CD, such as The 2 Cat Stevens (SQ) , The Joan Baez (QS) , the 2 Quincy Jones (SQ), and the Carpenters (SQ) . These would be A&M/UMG CD'S .

I think it's worth the effort . You never know this could turn out to be like the CTI/KUDU quads.
 

atrocity

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If there were any retail demo discs that might have had the Tina Turner "Acid Queen" track on it I would love to see if it's a different mix made especially for demonstration, as the version I have does not sound all that remarkable.
I wish we could know for sure how accurate the DVD quint mix is as far as reproducing the theatrical mix of "Acid Queen". On the DVD it goes completely nuts at points. That works with the picture but would probably be borderline annoying as an audio-only experience.
 

kfbkfb

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With all of the hype and incompatibilities removed, surround sound evolved correctly with Dolby Surround.
I wish Dolby Labs had allowed the surround channel to be encoded full bandwidth w/a switchable (~7kHz low pass filter) in the DS decoder, that might have helped encourage more music to be released in DS (since it would be basically DynaQuad).


Kirk Bayne
 

gvl_guy

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While it wasn't the case back in the 70's, most radios today, especially in the car, have FM stereo. The sounds that might be mixed to CB on a matrixed quad LP may vanish on a mono receiver, but not on a stereo unit. I doubt anyone uses a mono radio today for serious music listening.
I dare anyone with a new car to even find a "stereo" pilot indicator. You are absolutely correct here! In fact, with HD radio, that's the only indicator that's on my radio. (Other than maybe a high school radio station or a very small low power one, I'm willing to bet every FM station is stereo now, even news and talk FM stations.)

Unfortunately, mono is a concern in 2021. How many folks use Alexa or Google Nest as a way to listen to music? In most cases, people don't use a stereo pair. :cry:
 

par4ken

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I dare anyone with a new car to even find a "stereo" pilot indicator. You are absolutely correct here! In fact, with HD radio, that's the only indicator that's on my radio. (Other than maybe a high school radio station or a very small low power one, I'm willing to bet every FM station is stereo now, even news and talk FM stations.)

Unfortunately, mono is a concern in 2021. How many folks use Alexa or Google Nest as a way to listen to music? In most cases, people don't use a stereo pair. :cry:
The CBC in Canada (Radio 1) used to be AM but is now mostly FM in glorious Mono. The big cities have Radio 2 as well which is stereo.
 

kfbkfb

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The clever idea here is to rebroadcast AM on low power FM to "save" AM.

Locally, KCMO AM 710 talk radio (a fairly strong signal) is also on low power 103.7 FM, which, for some reason, is stereo (in this case, it only raises the background noise so I manually switch to mono FM)

I hope the people mixing the new singles/albums are checking the mono downmix (unfortunately, limiting out of phase content in stereo content means matrix synthesized surround sound could be compromised, I don't know if upmixing is adversely affected by minimal out of phase content).


Kirk Bayne
 

par4ken

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T
The clever idea here is to rebroadcast AM on low power FM to "save" AM.

Locally, KCMO AM 710 talk radio (a fairly strong signal) is also on low power 103.7 FM, which, for some reason, is stereo (in this case, it only raises the background noise so I manually switch to mono FM)

I hope the people mixing the new singles/albums are checking the mono downmix (unfortunately, limiting out of phase content in stereo content means matrix synthesized surround sound could be compromised, I don't know if upmixing is adversely affected by minimal out of phase content).


Kirk Bayne
The CBC stations are mostly high power. Radio 1, is always mono (no stereo pilot tone).
 

gvl_guy

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The clever idea here is to rebroadcast AM on low power FM to "save" AM.

Locally, KCMO AM 710 talk radio (a fairly strong signal) is also on low power 103.7 FM, which, for some reason, is stereo (in this case, it only raises the background noise so I manually switch to mono FM)

I hope the people mixing the new singles/albums are checking the mono downmix (unfortunately, limiting out of phase content in stereo content means matrix synthesized surround sound could be compromised, I don't know if upmixing is adversely affected by minimal out of phase content).


Kirk Bayne
The last major market FM station that I can remember being in mono was WWDB "The Talk Station" in Philadelphia. That ended in the late 1990s when the station flipped to a music format. But in today terms, no FM station would broadcast in mono. Why? I'm not 100% sure. Back in the day, some receivers, when put to FM Stereo, would block out mono signals. So most needed that carrier to light up. Mono has a bigger signal. (WWDB probably had the biggest signal in Philly at the time...went further than all the others. But, again, it was mono.) All commercials and production (promos, jingles, etc) are made in stereo today. All the radio station equipment is stereo....mixing boards, computers, etc. Maybe it makes the station sound bigger? Not sure.
 

kfbkfb

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The stereo encoding system used for FM stereo needs a stronger signal (than mono FM) to have low background noise (too bad they didn't use an NR system as part of the FM stereo encoding system, but the system was implemented in 1961, companding NR systems were available, but nothing I've read about the development of FM stereo mentioned considering an NR system for it).

I haven't tried yet tried matrix decoding of current/popular music on FM radio, I'll try it soon and see if the music producers are reducing out of phase content for improved mono compatibility (for mono streaming, "Alexa" type device listening etc.).


Kirk Bayne
 

par4ken

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The stereo encoding system used for FM stereo needs a stronger signal (than mono FM) to have low background noise (too bad they didn't use an NR system as part of the FM stereo encoding system, but the system was implemented in 1961, companding NR systems were available, but nothing I've read about the development of FM stereo mentioned considering an NR system for it).

I haven't tried yet tried matrix decoding of current/popular music on FM radio, I'll try it soon and see if the music producers are reducing out of phase content for improved mono compatibility (for mono streaming, "Alexa" type device listening etc.).


Kirk Bayne
I have always listened to stereo FM via a matrix decoder!
 
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