Reality Technologies - New surround technology

[jsrstereo]

Hello Q8: For 4-channel, see the hook-up protocol on Page 8 of the User Manual; for 5-channel, see Page 9. Yes, you must switch the cables accordingly depending upon your choice of 4 or 5 channel operation. I believe the sub output is optional in either mode, and that its absence does not detract from the output of the main channels in either mode.

John

 

[Steve Schoultz]

One other question for anyone with a surround master installed. The manual states that the Surround Master will pass-through signals when the power is off. My unit does not pass through anything with the power off. Anyone else with the same?

 

[Steve Schoultz]

Well it looks like I have my unit hooked up wrong in 4.1 channel mode. I was using the wrong FL/FR outputs. I will verify it when I get home. Thanks to another kind QQ member for helping me out. I'm still curious as to why my center channel level is too high in 5.1 mode and why the pass-through function doesn't work.

 

[jsrstereo]

Steve: my guess is that the pass-thru function will work once you get properly re-connected - let us know how it goes.

 

[chucky3042]

Hi Steve

Yes jsrstereo is correct. The unit has separate outputs for 5.1 or 4ch as they use independent DSP chips in addition the "turn off pass through" is only out of the left/ right 4 ch outputs.

Regards

chucky

 

[byrdman7]

Hi Steve

Yes jsrstereo is correct. The unit has separate outputs for 5.1 or 4ch as they use independent DSP chips in addition the "turn off pass through" is only out of the left/ right 4 ch outputs.

Regards

chucky

Hi,
The Involve Surround Master has issues with the center channel in the 5.1 mode. Please address the problem, thank you.

Reagan

 

[chucky3042]

Hi Reagan

Could you please clarify what problem you are getting, the only issue I am aware of is that we will reduce the output level on the center channel by about 3 dB on the next batch.

Regards

Charlie

Hi,
The Involve Surround Master has issues with the center channel in the 5.1 mode. Please address the problem, thank you.

Reagan

 

[byrdman7]

Hi Reagan

Could you please clarify what problem you are getting, the only issue I am aware of is that we will reduce the output level on the center channel by about 3 dB on the next batch.

Regards

Charlie

Hi Charlie,
The unit steers everything to the center not just vocals.

Regards,
Reagan

 

[chucky3042]

Hi Again

Just spoke to David, and he informs me you contacted him prior to Xmas with this issue. David says you reported that the center was a bit too loud and was pulling some left right audio to the center. In addition Dave said we will look at this in detail after we got back from Xmas holidays.

We just got back from Xmas and Dave will be assessing the issue in detail but initial thought are that the left/ right proportioning is fine but we will reduce center by say 3 dB.

All software upgrades are not charged.

Regards

Charlie

 

[Overture]

Hi Reagan!

Sorry for not getting back to you on Monday, we've just come back this week and it's the usual "Back to work" meetings and nonsense that always seems to dominate the return to work at the start of the year.

To clarify our 5.1 system: In a discreet 5.1 set-up - in movies predominantly it's vocals that are steered to the centre to match the screen content of talking, with some effects sent to the centre (though not many, 5.1 mixing engineers seem to avoid it I've noticed) - same with music, a lot of vocals get deliberately mixed into the centre to simulate an on-stage singer, regardless of where on stage they may actually be.

Our decoder doesn't separate vocals from the mix, it separates the centre channel. That means anything in the image content that is leaning towards the front centre will be represented there in some form. In music production that often includes drums and sometimes the lead guitar / acoustic guitar. If we removed the vocals and put them in the centre, we would destroy the sound stage, which goes entirely against our philosophy and the point of tte product and also against the original intention of 5.1 which was to give every listener the correct stereo image. Somewhere along the way that concept got corrupted and people started to view it as the "vocals" channel.

Having had a listen, and going by other reports of the centre being over-emphasised, it appear thus far that the centre decode isn't overly aggressive, it's just a bit too high in level. I will adjust and listen further, and update you accordingly. In the meantime, I suggest dropping the level of your centre channel by ~3db, depending on your room, speakers and set-up, while listening in 5.1.

Cheers
~David

 

[byrdman7]

Hi Reagan!

Sorry for not getting back to you on Monday, we've just come back this week and it's the usual "Back to work" meetings and nonsense that always seems to dominate the return to work at the start of the year.

To clarify our 5.1 system: In a discreet 5.1 set-up - in movies predominantly it's vocals that are steered to the centre to match the screen content of talking, with some effects sent to the centre (though not many, 5.1 mixing engineers seem to avoid it I've noticed) - same with music, a lot of vocals get deliberately mixed into the centre to simulate an on-stage singer, regardless of where on stage they may actually be.

Our decoder doesn't separate vocals from the mix, it separates the centre channel. That means anything in the image content that is leaning towards the front centre will be represented there in some form. In music production that often includes drums and sometimes the lead guitar / acoustic guitar. If we removed the vocals and put them in the centre, we would destroy the sound stage, which goes entirely against our philosophy and the point of tte product and also against the original intention of 5.1 which was to give every listener the correct stereo image. Somewhere along the way that concept got corrupted and people started to view it as the "vocals" channel.

Having had a listen, and going by other reports of the centre being over-emphasised, it appear thus far that the centre decode isn't overly aggressive, it's just a bit too high in level. I will adjust and listen further, and update you accordingly. In the meantime, I suggest dropping the level of your centre channel by ~3db, depending on your room, speakers and set-up, while listening in 5.1.

Cheers
~David

Hi David,
Thank you for your reply. I have hundreds of DVD Audio/SACD 5.1 discs that the main vocals are steered to the center channel only. I will purchase a RCA line level variable attenuator to try and make the 5.1 mode usable. I can purchase the attenuator for less money than it would cost me to return the unit to Australia. I am thrilled with the 4.1 mode performance but at this point DPLIIx works better than the Involve in the 5.1 mode. I wish I could report otherwise.

Regards,
Reagan

 

[Steve Schoultz]

I now have the unit properly hooked up in the 4.1 configuration. Everything sounds great. The pass-through function works. My personal preference is 4-channel, so the center channel issue is not a deal breaker for me. I'm a little dissapointed that the product was released with this obvious issue. I do plan to try an attenuator to see if this corrects the issue. I'm not sure how much attenuation is needed, just guessed 3dB. I know I can buy a 1dB, 3dB, 6 dB or 12dB. It would have been preferable that this was implemented in the original design. I'm very impressed with quad synthesizer capability. Very natural and MUCH better than DPLII IMHO.

 

[bangsezmax]

I have hundreds of DVD Audio/SACD 5.1 discs that the main vocals are steered to the center channel only.

Yes, but those discs are discrete recordings. I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that a synthesizer could pull only vocals out for the center. What would it do with instrumental music? Play nothing through the center? The original stereo content wasn't created with this synthesizer in mind. This is why 4.1 sounds better, because it's more closely related to the stereo field than 5.1 is. IMO, the only reason to have a center channel at all is for movies or discrete recordings.

 

[bangsezmax]

That is something that I have wondered as well. Is there a way to switch it between 4 and 5.1 channels? Is it supposed to automatically sense the connections? Are you loosing info when you don't have a center and a sub hooked up?

From what bangsezmax said, it seems that you are supposed to disconnect the other cables and reset when going from 5.1 to 4. That seems slightly inconvenient. One would think you could just leave them connected and switch modes like you can with other equipment.

It makes more sense when you look at the device:
I suppose if you wanted to switch modes, you could by a simple A/V switch box for the fronts and center channel. I'm leaving mine plugged in for 4.1 because that's how it sounds best.

 

[jsrstereo]

I now have the unit properly hooked up in the 4.1 configuration. Everything sounds great. The pass-through function works. My personal preference is 4-channel, so the center channel issue is not a deal breaker for me. I'm a little dissapointed that the product was released with this obvious issue. I do plan to try an attenuator to see if this corrects the issue. I'm not sure how much attenuation is needed, just guessed 3dB. I know I can buy a 1dB, 3dB, 6 dB or 12dB. It would have been preferable that this was implemented in the original design. I'm very impressed with quad synthesizer capability. Very natural and MUCH better than DPLII IMHO.

In lieu of an fixed-level attenuator, is it possible that a passive line-level volume controller would work to control the center channel volume relative to left/right, so that degree of attenuation could be variable, or is this not such a good idea?

 

[Steve Schoultz]

I thought of that too. Since we are using the analog inputs of the receiver, none of the speaker settings apply. It would be nice if there was a tool to at least adjust line outputs from the surround master to compensate for distances from each individual speaker using a microphone.

 

[bangsezmax]

Call me crazy, but I have separate amps for fronts, rears and center. I adjust all as needed, same as I do for discrete recordings. It's a PITA for the first 60 seconds, but that way you can get your balance dialed in exactly how you want it.

 

[Q8]

In lieu of an fixed-level attenuator, is it possible that a passive line-level volume controller would work to control the center channel volume relative to left/right, so that degree of attenuation could be variable, or is this not such a good idea?

Maybe some version of the Surround Master someday could have channel level controlls on the remote to help people taylor it to their equipment

 

[chucky3042]

Hi All

We had no intention to release a product with an "obvious issue" , in fact prior to release David and I had many discussions on what would be the best setting for center channel. One of the things that made us set it slightly higher is that often the center speaker is smaller than the main speakers with lower output. Leaving it high then allows proper level to be set with one attenuator not five. We are still thinking about it and would be happy to consider suggestions.

As mentioned we will release a much more comprehensive version (much more expensive) with comprehensive facilities - time permitting.

Regards

Chucky

 

[Q8]

Hi Chucky,

I know you guys are probably under a lot of stress with getting the first batch of units out, people needing help with issues and percieved issues and whatnot. Also I know you guys are just getting back from the holidy break (I wish I had that long of a holiday break, I should come work for you guys). I don't want to add to your stress, but I did want to remind you that there are some of us here waiting with baited breath for the SQ decoding option. I just wanted to see if you guys have started crunching the numbers for the SQ decoding and if you have made any progress.

Thanks!