Recording from the Involve V2 via a Behringer UMC404HD

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After more digging I found these Audacity details:
Requirements

  • Hardware support: you need a sound card or external audio interdace which has enough Analog to Digital Converters (ADC's) to do multi-channel recording. Most consumer cards only have one stereo pair of ADC's that is switched between various inputs such as Line-In and "Mic". You'll need at least a semi-professional device to find support for multi-channel recording.
  • Driver support: the drivers for the device must make it possible to record more than two channels at once. This is more problematic that it might seem because the standard sound interfaces for many operating systems were designed long before multi-channel recording was possible, and so only allow for up to two channels of recording. Also, consumer-level systems are not designed to achieve the low latencies and high throughputs needed for high quality multi-channel recordings.
  • Application support: the application you are recording into must support working with multiple channels of audio. Audacity supports recording however many channels the device offers (for example, 24). The number of channels desired can be selected in the Devices tab of Preferences. There are two current limitations:
    • Channel selection: You can't select exactly which channels are used - Audacity will simply use the first ones it finds. You may need to increase the number of recording channels in Audacity preferences (possibly to the maximum supported by the device, even though you are only recording a subset of them), until all you want are included. This may mean having to delete silent tracks after recording. Some audio interfaces however will display a "Multi" device. Selecting this as recording device in Audacity should let you record all the channels at once automatically.
    • Channel to track allocation: Particular channels of the sound device can't be recorded to particular tracks. After recording, multi-channel files can be exported using current Audacity, by choosing the appropriate mixdown option in Preferences (Import/Export tab). Playback support in Audacity is currently limited to stereo (2 channels), so all multi-channel recordings will be sent to your sound device in stereo. Your device can probably be configured as to whether the front left and front right speakers are used, or if output is duplicated to the surround channels. Offers from developers to help us add support for multi-channel playback are welcomed - to get in touch please join our developers' mailing list.

Crucially, available driver and application support for multi-channel audio (and whether you can use Audacity for multi-channel recording) depends on the operating system you are using. Please check the relevant section below for your particular system.





Windows
Windows Sound Interfaces

MME: The standard Windows MME (Multi Media Extensions) sound interface has been around since Windows 3.1. It supports up to two channels of recording, sample depths up to 16 bits, and sample rates up to 44100Hz. On playback, multiple applications can use the sound device at the same time, with all the audio being mixed and sample rate converted to 44100Hz in Windows before being sent to the audio interface. Nice and simple for going ping and utterly hopeless for multi-channel music production.

DirectSound: It's also not very much use for writing games with, which is why after the release of Windows 95, it became necessary to offer the games manufacturers something better to persuade them off DOS. So DirectSound was born. This provided more flexible playback of audio, and later added multi-channel and surround sound playback for immersive game audio. Recording support was added later. DirectSound offers somewhat lower latencies than MME, and the possibility of multi-channel recording on some devices.

ASIO: So in the meantime, serious audio recording and playback was left out in the cold. Proprietary solutions stepped into the gap, and Steinberg created the ASIO interface for bypassing the operating system entirely, and connecting audio applications direct to the audio interface. This gives very low latencies (because all the mixing and conversion involved in the MME interface is avoided), but means that only one application can use an audio interface at a time (no sharing between multiple applications, no system sounds).

Audacity supports ASIO but that support is not distributed in releases for licensing reasons. Audacity can be compiled with ASIO support as long as that build is not distributed to others.


WASAPI: In 2005 the WASAPI application programming interface (API) was introduced starting with Windows Vista. WASAPI isolates audio more from the kernel so providing greater stability, allows a few further multi-channel devices to work without ASIO and provides lower latency than MME and Windows DirectSound.

On the other hand, direct hardware access under WASAPI is limited to a WaveRT driver which only a few built-in devices support (also, Audacity and many other audio programs do not support it). Latencies under WASAPI are higher than under WDM-KS because MME and DirectSound are both emulated over WASAPI. To compensate for this, Windows Store applications on Windows 8 can support offloading of audio processing to hardware which was dropped with Vista. This is a necessary step for modern battery-dependent devices where software audio processing on the CPU would rapidly deplete battery life.

WASAPI has two significant benefits for Audacity.


  • 24-bit recording is supported (Windows DirectSound supports 24-bit recording, but the PortAudio API Audacity uses does not support 24-bit input under DirectSound).
  • From version 2.0.4 onwards, Audacity supports recording computer playback (even where sound devices don't support this) using Windows WASAPI loopback recording. For the audio to be captured, the audio device playing the audio must be in shared mode ("Exclusive Mode" unchecked in the Windows "Sound" Control Panel).

External article about Windows API's: For more on how Windows sound drivers work, and the different API's, see this article by Claus Riethmüller. Note: after that page was written, DirectSound added recording support, as mentioned above.
Recording With Audacity

As distributed, Audacity comes with support for Windows MME and WDM drivers. MME drivers work fine for simple stereo recording and playback, and are available on all versions of Windows where Audacity will run. However, neither these nor most WDM drivers will provide multi-channel recording; if you try to send multiple inputs to Audacity with these, you will only be presented with a series of separate two-channel "recording devices" from which one can be chosen, instead of the number of input channels there actually are.
 
My understanding from reading these details from Audacity, is that it is almost impossible to get multitrack recordings, using the current configuration in Windows 10.
 
After more digging I found these Audacity details:
Requirements

  • Hardware support: you need a sound card or external audio interdace which has enough Analog to Digital Converters (ADC's) to do multi-channel recording. Most consumer cards only have one stereo pair of ADC's that is switched between various inputs such as Line-In and "Mic". You'll need at least a semi-professional device to find support for multi-channel recording.
  • Driver support: the drivers for the device must make it possible to record more than two channels at once. This is more problematic that it might seem because the standard sound interfaces for many operating systems were designed long before multi-channel recording was possible, and so only allow for up to two channels of recording. Also, consumer-level systems are not designed to achieve the low latencies and high throughputs needed for high quality multi-channel recordings.
  • Application support: the application you are recording into must support working with multiple channels of audio. Audacity supports recording however many channels the device offers (for example, 24). The number of channels desired can be selected in the Devices tab of Preferences. There are two current limitations:
    • Channel selection: You can't select exactly which channels are used - Audacity will simply use the first ones it finds. You may need to increase the number of recording channels in Audacity preferences (possibly to the maximum supported by the device, even though you are only recording a subset of them), until all you want are included. This may mean having to delete silent tracks after recording. Some audio interfaces however will display a "Multi" device. Selecting this as recording device in Audacity should let you record all the channels at once automatically.
    • Channel to track allocation: Particular channels of the sound device can't be recorded to particular tracks. After recording, multi-channel files can be exported using current Audacity, by choosing the appropriate mixdown option in Preferences (Import/Export tab). Playback support in Audacity is currently limited to stereo (2 channels), so all multi-channel recordings will be sent to your sound device in stereo. Your device can probably be configured as to whether the front left and front right speakers are used, or if output is duplicated to the surround channels. Offers from developers to help us add support for multi-channel playback are welcomed - to get in touch please join our developers' mailing list.

Crucially, available driver and application support for multi-channel audio (and whether you can use Audacity for multi-channel recording) depends on the operating system you are using. Please check the relevant section below for your particular system.





Windows
Windows Sound Interfaces

MME: The standard Windows MME (Multi Media Extensions) sound interface has been around since Windows 3.1. It supports up to two channels of recording, sample depths up to 16 bits, and sample rates up to 44100Hz. On playback, multiple applications can use the sound device at the same time, with all the audio being mixed and sample rate converted to 44100Hz in Windows before being sent to the audio interface. Nice and simple for going ping and utterly hopeless for multi-channel music production.

DirectSound: It's also not very much use for writing games with, which is why after the release of Windows 95, it became necessary to offer the games manufacturers something better to persuade them off DOS. So DirectSound was born. This provided more flexible playback of audio, and later added multi-channel and surround sound playback for immersive game audio. Recording support was added later. DirectSound offers somewhat lower latencies than MME, and the possibility of multi-channel recording on some devices.

ASIO: So in the meantime, serious audio recording and playback was left out in the cold. Proprietary solutions stepped into the gap, and Steinberg created the ASIO interface for bypassing the operating system entirely, and connecting audio applications direct to the audio interface. This gives very low latencies (because all the mixing and conversion involved in the MME interface is avoided), but means that only one application can use an audio interface at a time (no sharing between multiple applications, no system sounds).

Audacity supports ASIO but that support is not distributed in releases for licensing reasons. Audacity can be compiled with ASIO support as long as that build is not distributed to others.


WASAPI: In 2005 the WASAPI application programming interface (API) was introduced starting with Windows Vista. WASAPI isolates audio more from the kernel so providing greater stability, allows a few further multi-channel devices to work without ASIO and provides lower latency than MME and Windows DirectSound.

On the other hand, direct hardware access under WASAPI is limited to a WaveRT driver which only a few built-in devices support (also, Audacity and many other audio programs do not support it). Latencies under WASAPI are higher than under WDM-KS because MME and DirectSound are both emulated over WASAPI. To compensate for this, Windows Store applications on Windows 8 can support offloading of audio processing to hardware which was dropped with Vista. This is a necessary step for modern battery-dependent devices where software audio processing on the CPU would rapidly deplete battery life.

WASAPI has two significant benefits for Audacity.


  • 24-bit recording is supported (Windows DirectSound supports 24-bit recording, but the PortAudio API Audacity uses does not support 24-bit input under DirectSound).
  • From version 2.0.4 onwards, Audacity supports recording computer playback (even where sound devices don't support this) using Windows WASAPI loopback recording. For the audio to be captured, the audio device playing the audio must be in shared mode ("Exclusive Mode" unchecked in the Windows "Sound" Control Panel).

External article about Windows API's: For more on how Windows sound drivers work, and the different API's, see this article by Claus Riethmüller. Note: after that page was written, DirectSound added recording support, as mentioned above.
Recording With Audacity

As distributed, Audacity comes with support for Windows MME and WDM drivers. MME drivers work fine for simple stereo recording and playback, and are available on all versions of Windows where Audacity will run. However, neither these nor most WDM drivers will provide multi-channel recording; if you try to send multiple inputs to Audacity with these, you will only be presented with a series of separate two-channel "recording devices" from which one can be chosen, instead of the number of input channels there actually are.

The information posted is from Audacity but some of it is outdated, in particular that about MME drivers, this from Wikipedia:
"In earlier Windows version, MME supported up to two channels of recording, 16-bit audio bit depth and sampling rates of up to 44100 samples per second with all the audio being mixed and sampled to 44100 samples per second.[citation needed] Starting from Windows 2000, MME supports up to 384000 samples per second, up to 8 channels, and up to 32 bits per sample."
 
The information posted is from Audacity but some of it is outdated, in particular that about MME drivers, this from Wikipedia:
"In earlier Windows version, MME supported up to two channels of recording, 16-bit audio bit depth and sampling rates of up to 44100 samples per second with all the audio being mixed and sampled to 44100 samples per second.[citation needed] Starting from Windows 2000, MME supports up to 384000 samples per second, up to 8 channels, and up to 32 bits per sample."
Cool
Always good to see folk finding further details, to describe where Audacity is at. (y)

It sure is a perplexing problem to try and resolve though.
If it can be. Maybe contacting Behringer to see if they can help, will get some answers.
 
Years ago I used a program called n-Track studio, I checked out the new version and it looks like looks like it might work well for me. I was able to select multiple inputs, ASIO drivers and 192 Khz operation. The program is not free but is reasonably priced. Will report back, I downloaded and installed the trial version.

https://ntrack.com/digital-audio-workstation.php
 
For Windows only:
Finally got the Behringer UMC404HD to work, in 4-channel mode, with Audacity, by downloading an old Behringer driver 3.29.0 (the current driver doesn't allow all 4 channels to work at the same time)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qalfn4hlor2nlpt/UMC_Driver_v3.29.0_Win7to10.zip?dl=0in the upper right hand corner, next to "sign in" there is a download button (I didn't have to "sign-in").
If you have installed a more modern (but non-4-channel) driver, this will be automatically removed when you install 3.29.0
In Audacity, I set "Windows WASAPI", "Line (Behringer UMC404HD 192K" and "4" (see the attached 2 images)
To record in Audacity, just press the Red (R) button and 4-channels will automatically be displayed, but the top channel is a stereo pair, with 2 mono channels... 4-channels in total.
20200223 Behringer UMC404HD 3.39.0 driver & Audacity 2.3.3, 4-channels.jpg
20200223 Behringer UMC404HD 3.39.0 driver & Audacity 2.3.3.jpg


There is a Youtube video, showing installation of 3.29.0 with a UMC204, just search Youtube for "Behringer UMC Interface Setup - Driver install and Audio preferences setup PC/MAC" dated Apr 28, 2016
 
For Windows only:
Finally got the Behringer UMC404HD to work, in 4-channel mode, with Audacity, by downloading an old Behringer driver 3.29.0 (the current driver doesn't allow all 4 channels to work at the same time)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qalfn4hlor2nlpt/UMC_Driver_v3.29.0_Win7to10.zip?dl=0in the upper right hand corner, next to "sign in" there is a download button (I didn't have to "sign-in").
If you have installed a more modern (but non-4-channel) driver, this will be automatically removed when you install 3.29.0
In Audacity, I set "Windows WASAPI", "Line (Behringer UMC404HD 192K" and "4" (see the attached 2 images)
To record in Audacity, just press the Red (R) button and 4-channels will automatically be displayed, but the top channel is a stereo pair, with 2 mono channels... 4-channels in total.
View attachment 48205View attachment 48206

There is a Youtube video, showing installation of 3.29.0 with a UMC204, just search Youtube for "Behringer UMC Interface Setup - Driver install and Audio preferences setup PC/MAC" dated Apr 28, 2016
That's exactly what I ended up doing.
Although after a little while, the Audacity programme started to play up and I wondered how reliable this old, discontinued driver is?
But it's great to read about success and thanks for showing the configuration too.
I need to go back and re-try soon.
 
I had a long discussion with a Microsoft tech chap and the answer is not good news for Window users.
Windows will only permit stereo or mono recording of previously mixed surround music, via an audio Interface.

I have copied and paste this chat to remind me of what was exactly discussed.

He did say there maybe third party software available to overcome this but he was not aware of one.

I will try and get Behringer's thoughts on this but I expect they know this already, as their concern is to provide equipment that can input up to 4 separate tracks and the user can then use software to mix the recorded stereo or mono tracks, as required, in Windows.

Therefore, where we are with my initial question, is that Apple's MacBook has the software to do exactly what I was looking for, in recording the Involves 4ch up-mix.
As proved by our QQ colleague, Smithers.

I am going to try another alternative and that is to use Linux Mint OS.
Another learning curve, as I will run this off a DVD.

Of course, if anyone has successfully overcome Windows shortfall, then please advise how it was achieved.
 
I had a long discussion with a Microsoft tech chap and the answer is not good news for Window users.
Windows will only permit stereo or mono recording of previously mixed surround music, via an audio Interface.

I have copied and paste this chat to remind me of what was exactly discussed.

He did say there maybe third party software available to overcome this but he was not aware of one.

I will try and get Behringer's thoughts on this but I expect they know this already, as their concern is to provide equipment that can input up to 4 separate tracks and the user can then use software to mix the recorded stereo or mono tracks, as required, in Windows.

Therefore, where we are with my initial question, is that Apple's MacBook has the software to do exactly what I was looking for, in recording the Involves 4ch up-mix.
As proved by our QQ colleague, Smithers.

I am going to try another alternative and that is to use Linux Mint OS.
Another learning curve, as I will run this off a DVD.

Of course, if anyone has successfully overcome Windows shortfall, then please advise how it was achieved.
:unsure: If the Microsoft guy is correct (& I wouldn't always be sure of that!) then it is the Windows (10?) driver which does not have the capability, so the only way to record multi-channel is with a new multi-channel driver which Behringer should provide! Otherwise it is using some DAW program which comes with suitable drivers, or a 'universal' driver. Something isn't adding up, and really the onus is on Behringer.
 
:unsure: If the Microsoft guy is correct (& I wouldn't always be sure of that!) then it is the Windows (10?) driver which does not have the capability, so the only way to record multi-channel is with a new multi-channel driver which Behringer should provide! Otherwise it is using some DAW program which comes with suitable drivers, or a 'universal' driver. Something isn't adding up, and really the onus is on Behringer.
I agree Duncan
It was quite an involved discussion and the tech chap had to get his colleagues involved, as it was an unusual question for them.
Windows has always been based on a stereo input system and their configuration permits altering on board sound requirements up to 7.1.
He categorically stated that this is the case after I pressed him for more info.

I will attempt to get an answer from Behringer.
I did post a question on Behringer community site 'Music Tribe' site yesterday, no reply's to date.
 
:unsure: If the Microsoft guy is correct (& I wouldn't always be sure of that!) then it is the Windows (10?) driver which does not have the capability, so the only way to record multi-channel is with a new multi-channel driver which Behringer should provide! Otherwise it is using some DAW program which comes with suitable drivers, or a 'universal' driver. Something isn't adding up, and really the onus is on Behringer.
I have just sent a detailed e-mail to Behringers Music Group service contact.
Let's see if they can come up with an answer?
 
Mike, does the Behringer come with any recording software? My MOTU will not be recognized in Audition 3 unless the MOTU software is running (I think 🤔 )
Unfortunately not Pups. I had to download an updated windows driver from their site which proved next to useless, as it only permits two inputs to record!!
That's why others and myself, found an older driver which will allow 4 inputs.
But still no surround recording
I should have followed my brothers advice and got a MacBook!!!! :rolleyes:
 
Unfortunately not Pups. I had to download an updated windows driver from their site which proved next to useless, as it only permits two inputs to record!!
That's why others and myself, found an older driver which will allow 4 inputs.
But still no surround recording
I should have followed my brothers advice and got a MacBook!!!! :rolleyes:
I still need to try out my MOTU through my NUC Win. 10 machine; but it does record Quad+ channels in Win. 7 Pro.
 
I still need to try out my MOTU through my NUC Win. 10 machine; but it does record Quad+ channels in Win. 7 Pro.
I decided last night to try and get my NUC/Amp/TV combo to work, it got delayed because of my Mother's passing away, and I had bought a few boxes which should have sorted it out - but HDCP is %$£&*** @#~]! :mad: As you may have guessed so far no luck!
 
I also found it odd that the MOTU will only work through a modern web browser (Chrome) via USB and not it’s own software.
So many quirks appearing these days Pups
Most above my pay grade, as I stumble around trying to make ahead or tail of what's going on.
Still it's not as if I have much else going on, with my one outing per week, to get the weekly shopping.

I do read all the world updates on this evil virus.
There ain't nobody that is going to be excluded, buy it's relentless drive, unless we minimise our social contact.

And back to the music.
 
I decided last night to try and get my NUC/Amp/TV combo to work, it got delayed because of my Mother's passing away, and I had bought a few boxes which should have sorted it out - but HDCP is %$£&*** @#~]! :mad: As you may have guessed so far no luck!
Our frustrations are probably meeting over 'Salisbury Plain', where the wildlife is learning a whole new vocabulary!! :)
 
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