Rolling Stones 40th Anniversary of “TATTOO YOU” Atmos on Tidal & Apple Music

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Been there on Apple Music since release date of the Deluxe Edition a few months ago.

It’s not a demo mix (nor is it the worst ever), but it was never going to be. There only so much you could do with it - unless you think you must have something discrete and overt in every channel at all times.
There were many multitracks used to record this album. There is no reason to think that there was not much that could be done with it. Even if some tapes' tracks were bounced to another, it is still a 24 track production, and the tracks are recorded well.
 
There were many multitracks used to record this album. There is no reason to think that there was not much that could be done with it. Even if some tapes' tracks were bounced to another, it is still a 24 track production, and the tracks are recorded well.
It was a pretty simple production regardless of how many tracks were or weren’t used or how well it was recorded.

Unlike many here it seems, I’m of the notion that just because you can put things all over the place, it doesn’t mean you should.
 
It was a pretty simple production regardless of how many tracks were or weren’t used or how well it was recorded.

Unlike many here it seems, I’m of the notion that just because you can put things all over the place, it doesn’t mean you should.
Multitracks were pulled out of storage from previous sessions including unused tracks from as early as 1974, and many from 1977-78. Additional guitars were added, older parts sometimes kept, fresh vocals added, a few new songs were recorded (not many), and it all mixed fresh in '81.

It sounds like you just don't want to give the Stones credit for a very well produced (and mixed) multitracked album, with a quite complex production history. There are lots of things to work with here.
 
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Multitracks were pulled out of storage from previous sessions including unused tracks from as early as 1974, and many from 1977-78. Additional guitars were added, older parts sometimes kept, fresh vocals added, a few new songs were recorded (not many), and it all mixed fresh in '81.

It sounds like you just don't want to give the Stones credit for a very well produced (and mixed) multiracked album, with a quite complex production history. There are lots of things to work with here.
I tried the Atmos version on Apple Music. After a few songs I lost interest. I only recognize a couple of tunes on the whole album. Maybe I should give it another chance? FWIW, I found the mix to be super tame for those few tracks.
 
I tried the Atmos version on Apple Music. After a few songs I lost interest. I only recognize a couple of tunes on the whole album. Maybe I should give it another chance? FWIW, I found the mix to be super tame for those few tracks.
It's a beautifully produced album, and with an interesting sequence - very fine with side one upbeat rockers, side two mellower and somewhat moodier. A split up of "styles" album that works this way really well. Side two starts with Worried 'Bout You which might begin the (slightly) more interesting Atmos mixing.

I'm currently trying to find it on Tidal. It's not showing up in any search. And I have the Hi-Fi tier.
 
Multitracks were pulled out of storage from previous sessions including unused tracks from as early as 1974, and many from 1977-78. Additional guitars were added, older parts sometimes kept, fresh vocals added, a few new songs were recorded (not many), and it all mixed fresh in '81.

It sounds like you just don't want to give the Stones credit for a very well produced (and mixed) multiracked album, with a quite complex production history. There are lots of things to work with here.
I know how it was recorded. How it was recorded or how well it was recorded says nothing about the music itself and whether an aggressive surround mix is appropriate (or not).

In the end, it‘s still largely a basic, simple “production” - two guitars, bass, drums, vocal - with sometimes keyboards. And the atmos mix reflects that IMO.
 
I know how it was recorded. How it was recorded or how well it was recorded says nothing about the music itself and whether an aggressive surround mix is appropriate (or not).

In the end, it‘s still largely a basic, simple “production” - two guitars, bass, drums, vocal - with sometimes keyboards. And the atmos mix reflects that IMO.
Curious what your opinion is of the Goats Head Soup Atmos mix by Giles Martin. Do you think it’s aggressive or too aggressive?
 
Curious what your opinion is of the Goats Head Soup Atmos mix by Giles Martin. Do you think it’s aggressive or too aggressive?
I don’t find it much different generally from Tattoo You. It is what is. It’s not a demo mix, but it doesn’t sound out of place either. I certainly wouldn’t remotely call it aggressive or too aggressive.

I wouldn’t want The Wall mixed in surround like Tattoo You or GHS, but the same could be said for the respective stereo mixes too.

I’ve learned to try not to get delusions of grandeur about surround mixes of albums which don’t really lend themselves musically and/or technically IMO to a complex, aggressive surround mix. I don’t envy the jobs (and expectations) of engineers who get those assignments. Kinda lose-lose.
 
It's my understanding from speaking to someone peripherally involved with Atmos mixing in the US that with the sudden demand for Atmos mixes for streaming services, there's a kind of assembly-line process for creating these mixes for artists who either don't care about surround or don't have provisions in their contracts to approve (or reject) a surround mix. I was told that for these mixes the SOP is to just recall the stereo mix and push a few elements partially into the height speakers, and the same with the surrounds, effectively so that if you put your ear up to the speaker you can verify that it's doing something. To my mind, this accounts for the huge amount of "is it in yet?" surround mixes that have proliferated on Atmos streaming thusfar, and it fills me with dread that the major labels are repeating the same mistakes of the original SACD/DVD-A era all over again. The fact that the Atmos mix of Tattoo You was dumped onto streaming services with little fanfare and not released on Blu-Ray at all should tell you all you need to know about how much faith they have in its quality.

I don't buy the idea that the approach to this mix is a philosophical issue when cheapness or laziness is a much more plausible explanation. It may be two guitars, vocals, bass, drums and keyboards, but there's a reason albums (especially by 1981) were recorded on 16, 24, 36 or 48 tracks and not 8. Bands didn't just go into the studio, play live and then go home - they added all sorts of overdubs, double-tracked guitars, added backing vocals, harmony vocals, percussion and so on. The wiki page for this album lists at least 12 different non-Stones people who contributed other instruments to this album. Additionally, Bob Clearmountain's mixes during this period were a masterclass in making "simple" rock bands, most of which weren't massively different from the Stones in terms of configuration, sound huge, from Roxy Music (Avalon), to Bryan Adams (Cuts Like a Knife, Reckless) to to David Bowie (Let's Dance) to Bruce Springsteen (Born in the USA). In fact, I'd argue that the Stones called in Clearmountain (who was a master of production trickery and was at the forefront of using natural reverb for the "big" sound that defined the '80s) exactly BECAUSE they wanted a fancy mix - if they wanted something that sounded like a bunch of stripped-down demos there were a million Jimmy Nonames they could've used at the time.

I haven't seen them with my own two eyes, but I'm sure there are more than enough elements on these master tapes to make a satisfying surround mix without turning it into ostentatious 4-corner bongo fury - Clearmountain's 5.1 mixes of Roxy Music's Avalon and Bryan Adams Reckless are more than proof of this. There's already a mix of this album with all of the sound coming out of the front of the room, and it's called the stereo mix. Making a surround mix that retains 95% of the stereo mix and then allocates the other 5% between all the other height and surround speakers is either a failure of imagination, a crisis in confidence, or an exercise in cost-savings, and no matter which combination of the three it is, it's a pity. Surround offers an amazing canvas for a mixing engineer to paint on, it's a shame that so few are either unwilling or not allowed to fully utilize it.
 
It's my understanding from speaking to someone peripherally involved with Atmos mixing in the US that with the sudden demand for Atmos mixes for streaming services, there's a kind of assembly-line process for creating these mixes for artists who either don't care about surround or don't have provisions in their contracts to approve (or reject) a surround mix. I was told that for these mixes the SOP is to just recall the stereo mix and push a few elements partially into the height speakers, and the same with the surrounds, effectively so that if you put your ear up to the speaker you can verify that it's doing something. To my mind, this accounts for the huge amount of "is it in yet?" surround mixes that have proliferated on Atmos streaming thusfar, and it fills me with dread that the major labels are repeating the same mistakes of the original SACD/DVD-A era all over again. The fact that the Atmos mix of Tattoo You was dumped onto streaming services with little fanfare and not released on Blu-Ray at all should tell you all you need to know about how much faith they have in its quality.

I don't buy the idea that the approach to this mix is a philosophical issue when cheapness or laziness is a much more plausible explanation. It may be two guitars, vocals, bass, drums and keyboards, but there's a reason albums (especially by 1981) were recorded on 16, 24, 36 or 48 tracks and not 8. Bands didn't just go into the studio, play live and then go home - they added all sorts of overdubs, double-tracked guitars, added backing vocals, harmony vocals, percussion and so on. The wiki page for this album lists at least 12 different non-Stones people who contributed other instruments to this album. Additionally, Bob Clearmountain's mixes during this period were a masterclass in making "simple" rock bands, most of which weren't massively different from the Stones in terms of configuration, sound huge, from Roxy Music (Avalon), to Bryan Adams (Cuts Like a Knife, Reckless) to to David Bowie (Let's Dance) to Bruce Springsteen (Born in the USA). In fact, I'd argue that the Stones called in Clearmountain (who was a master of production trickery and was at the forefront of using natural reverb for the "big" sound that defined the '80s) exactly BECAUSE they wanted a fancy mix - if they wanted something that sounded like a bunch of stripped-down demos there were a million Jimmy Nonames they could've used at the time.

I haven't seen them with my own two eyes, but I'm sure there are more than enough elements on these master tapes to make a satisfying surround mix without turning it into ostentatious 4-corner bongo fury - Clearmountain's 5.1 mixes of Roxy Music's Avalon and Bryan Adams Reckless are more than proof of this. There's already a mix of this album with all of the sound coming out of the front of the room, and it's called the stereo mix. Making a surround mix that retains 95% of the stereo mix and then allocates the other 5% between all the other height and surround speakers is either a failure of imagination, a crisis in confidence, or an exercise in cost-savings, and no matter which combination of the three it is, it's a pity. Surround offers an amazing canvas for a mixing engineer to paint on, it's a shame that so few are either unwilling or not allowed to fully utilize it.

Preach! Seriously: an only slightly modified version of your post needs to be published as a review-slash-open-letter-to-the-industry in some high-profile venue.
 
"Released straight to streaming" has the connotation that "released straight to DVD" has for movies.

I wouldn't say that's true, there are a fair number of excellent streaming-only Atmos mixes: Tom Petty's Wildflowers & All The Rest, Joe Bonamassa's Time Clocks, Taylor Swift's Folklore, Billie Eilish's Happier Than Ever, Tori Amos' Ocean To Ocean, Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory, Olivia Rodrigo's Sour, etc.
 
I wouldn't say that's true, there are a fair number of excellent streaming-only Atmos mixes: Tom Petty's Wildflowers & All The Rest, Joe Bonamassa's Time Clocks, Taylor Swift's Folklore, Billie Eilish's Happier Than Ever, Tori Amos' Ocean To Ocean, Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory, Olivia Rodrigo's Sour, etc.
Megadeth, Pearl Jam, Halsey, The Weeknd, STP, and so on...
 
It's my understanding from speaking to someone peripherally involved with Atmos mixing in the US that with the sudden demand for Atmos mixes for streaming services, there's a kind of assembly-line process for creating these mixes for artists who either don't care about surround or don't have provisions in their contracts to approve (or reject) a surround mix. I was told that for these mixes the SOP is to just recall the stereo mix and push a few elements partially into the height speakers, and the same with the surrounds, effectively so that if you put your ear up to the speaker you can verify that it's doing something. To my mind, this accounts for the huge amount of "is it in yet?" surround mixes that have proliferated on Atmos streaming thusfar, and it fills me with dread that the major labels are repeating the same mistakes of the original SACD/DVD-A era all over again. The fact that the Atmos mix of Tattoo You was dumped onto streaming services with little fanfare and not released on Blu-Ray at all should tell you all you need to know about how much faith they have in its quality.

I don't buy the idea that the approach to this mix is a philosophical issue when cheapness or laziness is a much more plausible explanation. It may be two guitars, vocals, bass, drums and keyboards, but there's a reason albums (especially by 1981) were recorded on 16, 24, 36 or 48 tracks and not 8. Bands didn't just go into the studio, play live and then go home - they added all sorts of overdubs, double-tracked guitars, added backing vocals, harmony vocals, percussion and so on. The wiki page for this album lists at least 12 different non-Stones people who contributed other instruments to this album. Additionally, Bob Clearmountain's mixes during this period were a masterclass in making "simple" rock bands, most of which weren't massively different from the Stones in terms of configuration, sound huge, from Roxy Music (Avalon), to Bryan Adams (Cuts Like a Knife, Reckless) to to David Bowie (Let's Dance) to Bruce Springsteen (Born in the USA). In fact, I'd argue that the Stones called in Clearmountain (who was a master of production trickery and was at the forefront of using natural reverb for the "big" sound that defined the '80s) exactly BECAUSE they wanted a fancy mix - if they wanted something that sounded like a bunch of stripped-down demos there were a million Jimmy Nonames they could've used at the time.

I haven't seen them with my own two eyes, but I'm sure there are more than enough elements on these master tapes to make a satisfying surround mix without turning it into ostentatious 4-corner bongo fury - Clearmountain's 5.1 mixes of Roxy Music's Avalon and Bryan Adams Reckless are more than proof of this. There's already a mix of this album with all of the sound coming out of the front of the room, and it's called the stereo mix. Making a surround mix that retains 95% of the stereo mix and then allocates the other 5% between all the other height and surround speakers is either a failure of imagination, a crisis in confidence, or an exercise in cost-savings, and no matter which combination of the three it is, it's a pity. Surround offers an amazing canvas for a mixing engineer to paint on, it's a shame that so few are either unwilling or not allowed to fully utilize it.
I don’t claim to know how to speak “Dave”, but, I believe the above line-
“a crisis in confidence”
can be translated adequately from our Manly Man Manual (translation section) page 8,341.

Wherein, the above line possibly could mean any one of the three following things-

One:
It’s one of the most famous Rock ‘n Roll bands of all time, but your mix makes me feel like I’m listening to Classical without my requisite 6 pack buzz on.

Two:
You didn’t have time to properly test that mix out for maximum manliness rear excitement, because you were late for your Ballet lessons.

Three:
You’ve lost site of the fact, that big booty in the rears, is actually a good thing.
 
It's my understanding from speaking to someone peripherally involved with Atmos mixing in the US that with the sudden demand for Atmos mixes for streaming services, there's a kind of assembly-line process for creating these mixes for artists who either don't care about surround or don't have provisions in their contracts to approve (or reject) a surround mix. I was told that for these mixes the SOP is to just recall the stereo mix and push a few elements partially into the height speakers, and the same with the surrounds, effectively so that if you put your ear up to the speaker you can verify that it's doing something. To my mind, this accounts for the huge amount of "is it in yet?" surround mixes that have proliferated on Atmos streaming thusfar, and it fills me with dread that the major labels are repeating the same mistakes of the original SACD/DVD-A era all over again. The fact that the Atmos mix of Tattoo You was dumped onto streaming services with little fanfare and not released on Blu-Ray at all should tell you all you need to know about how much faith they have in its quality.

I don't buy the idea that the approach to this mix is a philosophical issue when cheapness or laziness is a much more plausible explanation. It may be two guitars, vocals, bass, drums and keyboards, but there's a reason albums (especially by 1981) were recorded on 16, 24, 36 or 48 tracks and not 8. Bands didn't just go into the studio, play live and then go home - they added all sorts of overdubs, double-tracked guitars, added backing vocals, harmony vocals, percussion and so on. The wiki page for this album lists at least 12 different non-Stones people who contributed other instruments to this album. Additionally, Bob Clearmountain's mixes during this period were a masterclass in making "simple" rock bands, most of which weren't massively different from the Stones in terms of configuration, sound huge, from Roxy Music (Avalon), to Bryan Adams (Cuts Like a Knife, Reckless) to to David Bowie (Let's Dance) to Bruce Springsteen (Born in the USA). In fact, I'd argue that the Stones called in Clearmountain (who was a master of production trickery and was at the forefront of using natural reverb for the "big" sound that defined the '80s) exactly BECAUSE they wanted a fancy mix - if they wanted something that sounded like a bunch of stripped-down demos there were a million Jimmy Nonames they could've used at the time.

I haven't seen them with my own two eyes, but I'm sure there are more than enough elements on these master tapes to make a satisfying surround mix without turning it into ostentatious 4-corner bongo fury - Clearmountain's 5.1 mixes of Roxy Music's Avalon and Bryan Adams Reckless are more than proof of this. There's already a mix of this album with all of the sound coming out of the front of the room, and it's called the stereo mix. Making a surround mix that retains 95% of the stereo mix and then allocates the other 5% between all the other height and surround speakers is either a failure of imagination, a crisis in confidence, or an exercise in cost-savings, and no matter which combination of the three it is, it's a pity. Surround offers an amazing canvas for a mixing engineer to paint on, it's a shame that so few are either unwilling or not allowed to fully utilize it.
Much of what became Tattoo You wasn’t recorded in 1981.

Just take Start Me Up. As I understand it, the basic elements were recorded in ‘77 during the Some Girls sessions and I believe was recorded using a pretty basic 16 track board to a 16 track deck. That may sound like a lot of tracks - but it’s still pretty simple production. And very importantly, the basic tracks were recorded live. The basic tracks were drums on 5 or 6 tracks, two for bass (one mic’s & one direct), one each for the two rhythm guitars parts. Jagger’s “guide” vocals and the drums were fed through a PA which resulted in some bleed through to some other tracks.

The track was shelved until ‘81, when it was dusted off - and vocal and lead/fill guitar parts were added as well as some mic’d bathroom reverb for the vocals and drums.

That get’s you to just about 16 tracks - but as I’ve written, it’s still a pretty basic, simple recording and arrangement. And it’s potentially complicated by bleed-through and other challenges from recording live, feeding the drums through a PA for the basic tracks, and then adding basement reverb intended for stereo mixes, not surround.

Could it have been more aggresive? Sure. Would it have sounded as good as many think it could or should? Would it still have the sound, energy and feel of Start Me Up? Maybe, maybe not. I can’t imagine they didn’t try a more aggressive mix. But it seems to me it’s entirely possible given the overall nature of the recording, an aggressive mix just didn’t work particularly well.

Our imaginations and personal tastes can imagine mixes which exceed what is actually possible with real world constraints.
 
It's my understanding from speaking to someone peripherally involved with Atmos mixing in the US that with the sudden demand for Atmos mixes for streaming services, there's a kind of assembly-line process for creating these mixes for artists who either don't care about surround or don't have provisions in their contracts to approve (or reject) a surround mix. I was told that for these mixes the SOP is to just recall the stereo mix and push a few elements partially into the height speakers, and the same with the surrounds, effectively so that if you put your ear up to the speaker you can verify that it's doing something. To my mind, this accounts for the huge amount of "is it in yet?" surround mixes that have proliferated on Atmos streaming thusfar, and it fills me with dread that the major labels are repeating the same mistakes of the original SACD/DVD-A era all over again. The fact that the Atmos mix of Tattoo You was dumped onto streaming services with little fanfare and not released on Blu-Ray at all should tell you all you need to know about how much faith they have in its quality.

I don't buy the idea that the approach to this mix is a philosophical issue when cheapness or laziness is a much more plausible explanation. It may be two guitars, vocals, bass, drums and keyboards, but there's a reason albums (especially by 1981) were recorded on 16, 24, 36 or 48 tracks and not 8. Bands didn't just go into the studio, play live and then go home - they added all sorts of overdubs, double-tracked guitars, added backing vocals, harmony vocals, percussion and so on. The wiki page for this album lists at least 12 different non-Stones people who contributed other instruments to this album. Additionally, Bob Clearmountain's mixes during this period were a masterclass in making "simple" rock bands, most of which weren't massively different from the Stones in terms of configuration, sound huge, from Roxy Music (Avalon), to Bryan Adams (Cuts Like a Knife, Reckless) to to David Bowie (Let's Dance) to Bruce Springsteen (Born in the USA). In fact, I'd argue that the Stones called in Clearmountain (who was a master of production trickery and was at the forefront of using natural reverb for the "big" sound that defined the '80s) exactly BECAUSE they wanted a fancy mix - if they wanted something that sounded like a bunch of stripped-down demos there were a million Jimmy Nonames they could've used at the time.

I haven't seen them with my own two eyes, but I'm sure there are more than enough elements on these master tapes to make a satisfying surround mix without turning it into ostentatious 4-corner bongo fury - Clearmountain's 5.1 mixes of Roxy Music's Avalon and Bryan Adams Reckless are more than proof of this. There's already a mix of this album with all of the sound coming out of the front of the room, and it's called the stereo mix. Making a surround mix that retains 95% of the stereo mix and then allocates the other 5% between all the other height and surround speakers is either a failure of imagination, a crisis in confidence, or an exercise in cost-savings, and no matter which combination of the three it is, it's a pity. Surround offers an amazing canvas for a mixing engineer to paint on, it's a shame that so few are either unwilling or not allowed to fully utilize it.
(y)
 
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