Quantcast

Suggestions for Dutton Vocalion Multichannel SACD Releases

Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:

ubertrout

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
1,584
This may have been mentioned earlier in this thread:

The CD layer could contain the Matrix encoded (all software
SQ or QS [possibly Involve Audio] Quad encoder) version of
the Discrete Quad content on the SACD layer.

That way CD/Stereo listeners would get to hear the Quad
mix (some with significant differences from the existing
Stereo mix) and be able to decode (w/Headphones, simple
Matrix or logic directed Matrix decoders) the Quad content.

(maybe the original Stereo mix could be made available
as a Streaming option, with a "Redeem Stereo" paper
insert with a code a la Blu-ray movies)


Kirk Bayne
DV did this once, I'd be curious if the feedback was positive, negative, or nonexistent?

I'll admit my general impulse is to oppose this to the extent it results in fewer overall releases. I don't think there's enough of an audience for this media (really just people with Involve hardware and working vintage decoders), and even most of them have a SACD player as well. Obviously my feelings might vary if I was one of those people, but I'd much rather attention was focused on discrete quad transfers plus stereo (which is still I suspect why a majority of people buy these releases).

The other problem is where to put the matrix track on a twofer. There's typically not room in either the CD or SACD area for another stereo track, and I'd much rather have a second album than the matrixed audio - and I think people want regular CD and SACD stereo tracks, even if not as much here.

The option of a download code for matrixed files is a fine idea in theory, but I suspect it's a licensing nightmare.

I'd suggest this might be more productive to push for on specific deluxe editions where a matrixed audio track could be added to the blu-ray.
 

J. PUPSTER

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
QQ Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
7,086
Location
CALIFORNIA (CENTRAL)
DV did this once, I'd be curious if the feedback was positive, negative, or nonexistent?

I'll admit my general impulse is to oppose this to the extent it results in fewer overall releases. I don't think there's enough of an audience for this media (really just people with Involve hardware and working vintage decoders), and even most of them have a SACD player as well. Obviously my feelings might vary if I was one of those people, but I'd much rather attention was focused on discrete quad transfers plus stereo (which is still I suspect why a majority of people buy these releases).

The other problem is where to put the matrix track on a twofer. There's typically not room in either the CD or SACD area for another stereo track, and I'd much rather have a second album than the matrixed audio - and I think people want regular CD and SACD stereo tracks, even if not as much here.

The option of a download code for matrixed files is a fine idea in theory, but I suspect it's a licensing nightmare.

I'd suggest this might be more productive to push for on specific deluxe editions where a matrixed audio track could be added to the blu-ray.
I believe the issue at heart is being confused IINM.
 

steelydave

Moderator
Staff member
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Apr 21, 2002
Messages
2,164
Location
Toronto, ON
Yeah I'm just gonna pour cold water on this idea. On the rare occasion where the original discrete master tape is missing (Sextant, etc.) D-V have included the SQ version on the SACD stereo layer, and while it's possible this may happen again in the future if a similar situation arises, the priority has been, and always will be titles that have suitable-quality master tapes available.

I don't know if people totally realize how much work goes into these discs as-is: any "standard" D-V disc already has three separate masterings on it, multichannel, SACD stereo and CD stereo - the CD stereo isn't just a downconvert of the DSD mastering, it's a unique mastering that takes into account the differences between DSD and PCM.

Adding a fourth mastering (SQ-encoded stereo on the SACD stereo layer) just to satisfy a fetish of a handful of people with SQ decoding hardware seems like time and money poorly spent to me. I feel like if you have a disc with a discrete master on it and you want to listen to a decode based on an inherently-flawed 50 year old matrix instead that maybe you're more in love with gear than the music itself, and there are a million used SQ/QS/EV records on eBay if you want food for your matrix decoder.
 

4-earredwonder

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
14,919
Yeah I'm just gonna pour cold water on this idea. On the rare occasion where the original discrete master tape is missing (Sextant, etc.) D-V have included the SQ version on the SACD stereo layer, and while it's possible this may happen again in the future if a similar situation arises, the priority has been, and always will be titles that have suitable-quality master tapes available.

I don't know if people totally realize how much work goes into these discs as-is: any "standard" D-V disc already has three separate masterings on it, multichannel, SACD stereo and CD stereo - the CD stereo isn't just a downconvert of the DSD mastering, it's a unique mastering that takes into account the differences between DSD and PCM.

Adding a fourth mastering (SQ-encoded stereo on the SACD stereo layer) just to satisfy a fetish of a handful of people with SQ decoding hardware seems like time and money poorly spent to me. I feel like if you have a disc with a discrete master on it and you want to listen to a decode based on an inherently-flawed 50 year old matrix instead that maybe you're more in love with gear than the music itself, and there are a million used SQ/QS/EV records on eBay if you want food for your matrix decoder.
I totally agree, Dave. I've been playing my D~V QUAD SACDs for the past two weeks and still marvel at their excellence and I've always praised D~V's RBCDs for their astounding clarity.

Michael Dutton certainly has his own unique style and mode of execution and why mess with a tried and true formula.
 

kfbkfb

400 Club - QQ All-Star
Since 2002/2003
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
432
Location
Midwest USA
My idea was inspired by the Jackson 5 LP that's a CD-4 type
Quad to Stereo folddown (that alone is the selling point for
the release, having alternate mixes without needing any type
of decoder).

I don't know how many of the DV MCH releases have been
previously released (by another label) in Stereo in some
form of Digital Audio, so making the Quad mix available
in Stereo could be a (unique) selling point, whether the Quad
mix is a CD-4 type folddown or Matrix encoded (I vote for
Matrix encoded, then even the DynaQuad speaker matrix
decoder could be used to get some form of Surround sound).


Kirk Bayne
 

kap'n krunch

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
7,134
Location
estados hundidos
I totally agree, Dave. I've been playing my D~V QUAD SACDs for the past two weeks and still marvel at their excellence and I've always praised D~V's RBCDs for their astounding clarity.

Michael Dutton certainly has his own unique style and mode of execution and why mess with a tried and true formula.
Same here...industry standard releases!!!
 

jaybird100

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
QQ Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,354
Location
Pembroke Pines, FL
DV did this once, I'd be curious if the feedback was positive, negative, or nonexistent?

I'll admit my general impulse is to oppose this to the extent it results in fewer overall releases. I don't think there's enough of an audience for this media (really just people with Involve hardware and working vintage decoders), and even most of them have a SACD player as well. Obviously my feelings might vary if I was one of those people, but I'd much rather attention was focused on discrete quad transfers plus stereo (which is still I suspect why a majority of people buy these releases).

The other problem is where to put the matrix track on a twofer. There's typically not room in either the CD or SACD area for another stereo track, and I'd much rather have a second album than the matrixed audio - and I think people want regular CD and SACD stereo tracks, even if not as much here.

The option of a download code for matrixed files is a fine idea in theory, but I suspect it's a licensing nightmare.

I'd suggest this might be more productive to push for on specific deluxe editions where a matrixed audio track could be added to the blu-ray.
My idea was to use the RBCD layer for the matrixed version, keeping the original stereo mix, as it was originally, on the SACD stereo layer. Since the original discrete quad master is used for the SACD MC layer, that mic could be used to create a matrixed version. The Involve encoder would be the logical choice for the process. The results sound great in stereo, with headphones, PL II, QS, or Involve's own decoder (the Surround Master). It's just a thought, but it could work.
 

ubertrout

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
1,584
My idea was to use the RBCD layer for the matrixed version, keeping the original stereo mix, as it was originally, on the SACD stereo layer. Since the original discrete quad master is used for the SACD MC layer, that mic could be used to create a matrixed version. The Involve encoder would be the logical choice for the process. The results sound great in stereo, with headphones, PL II, QS, or Involve's own decoder (the Surround Master). It's just a thought, but it could work.
The fly in the ointment is that I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of people are buying these releases for the CD stereo layer. I know that seems crazy but it seems to match what I keep hearing about sales statistics.
 

JediJoker

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
1,135
Location
Portland, OR, USA
...SACD stereo and CD stereo - the CD stereo isn't just a downconvert of the DSD mastering, it's a unique mastering that takes into account the differences between DSD and PCM.
And not done at the same time (split feed)? That seems excessive. Even heavy hitter MoFi just uses conversions for the Redbook layer. Steve Hoffman used a split feed for AF releases (don't know about Kevin Gray).
 
Top