Surprising result using DVD Audio Extractor to rip Stereo Tracks

[LuvMyQuad]

I've been ripping my audio collection to a NAS for a few years now. The first thing I ripped was my DVDA collection, and since I was new to the ripping life, I only ripped the surround tracks from my DVDAs. I wasn't sure how far the 4TB storage capacity was going to stretch. I then took little jumps forward acquiring the capability to rip BRDs and most recently, SACDs, and for those I started ripping the stereo and MC Hi Res tracks. But I never did rip the Stereo tracks from the DVDAs.... until this week.

I saw I didn't have ripped stereo versions of the three Steely Dan 5.1 studio releases, and that led to the realization that I never ripped any of the stereo DVDA tracks. So using DVDAE, I extract the stereo layers of Two Against Nature and Everything Must Go.... no problem. Both had an MLP stereo layer, EMG was 24/192 I believe. According to DVDAE, Gaucho contains a 24/96 LPCM stereo layer. I extract it to FLAC. DVDAE flew through the extraction process in seconds. It created a FLAC file for each track, but each track also has zero duration and zero size. If I try to play them, the player cycles through them one after the other just like it would if there was actually something in the files.

Perplexed, I ripped my Gaucho CD to the NAS and carried on. I get to my two Queen disks. Bohemian Rhapsody rips fine (24x96 2.0 MLP), then surprise, The Game has no dedicated stereo track at all. Only a 5.1 MLP track.

Then the light bulb goes on... I remember .... Not all DVDAs have a dedicated stereo track. Some, like Gaucho and The Game, apparently, simply produce a fold down of the 5.1 layer. The disk packaging specifically states they can be used to play high resolution stereo and MC tracks. And they can, as long as you don't mind a fold down for the stereo.

I never had a reason to listen to the Hi Res stereo tracks of these disks before I had the NAS. I played the surround disk in my listening room and the CD everywhere else.

I didn't notice this when ripping BRD's. But I think I may see something similar happening when extracting stereo DFF files from SACD ISO files. The Sonare ISOtoDSD program sometimes flies through a stereo extraction in only a minute or so when a typical DFF extraction takes 15-20 minutes.

Anyone have any observations or comments,?

I'm not sure its preferable to listen to a hi res fold down instead of a purpose-mixed but lower res stereo CD.

 

[ubertrout]

As I understand it, the mixdown on DVD-Audio isn't just a folddown, the disc has instructions for making the stereo downmix. Not sure how good it is, but...

 

[Simon A]

But I think I may see something similar happening when extracting stereo DFF files from SACD ISO files. The Sonare ISOtoDSD program sometimes flies through a stereo extraction in only a minute or so when a typical DFF extraction takes 15-20 minutes.

Extracting from DVDs and extracting from SACDs are two different things just like the discs themselves are totally different. The reason why the Stereo or Mono DFF files take less time is that the files are smaller for Mono and Stereo than for Multichannel. It's logical. There no fold down process with SACD extraction.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

As I understand it, the mixdown on DVD-Audio isn't just a folddown, the disc has instructions for making the stereo downmix. Not sure how good it is, but...

Yes, I was aware there is an instruction set for making the down mix. And I'm sure it can produce a reasonable approximation of the stereo mix. But its hard for me to believe it can best a dedicated stereo mix of the same material.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Extracting from DVDs and extracting from SACDs are two different things just like the discs themselves are totally different. The reason why the Stereo or Mono DFF files take less time is that the files are smaller for Mono and Stereo than for Multichannel. It's logical. There no fold down process with SACD extraction.

I understand what you are saying. Certainly the stereo tracks of any format are smaller and will process faster than the MC tracks. I'm not denying that.

But here is an example. I ripped the SACDs of two Billy Joel albums: The Stranger and 52nd Street (both single layer SACDs). I initially extracted both ISOs. I then extracted the DFF 5.1 and 2.0 tracks from the ISOs. For The Stranger, I did the 5.1 DFFs first. It took maybe 25-30 minutes, Then I did the 2.0 tracks, which only took 2-3 minutes. I then extracted the 2.0 DFFs from the 52nd Street ISO. It took maybe 15 minutes. The 5.1 tracks took the same 25-30 minutes again. Why did the 2.0 Stranger tracks process so quickly?

 

[Simon A]

I understand what you are saying. Certainly the stereo tracks of any format are smaller and will process faster than the MC tracks. I'm not denying that.

But here is an example. I ripped the SACDs of two Billy Joel albums: The Stranger and 52nd Street (both single layer SACDs). I initially extracted both ISOs. I then extracted the DFF 5.1 and 2.0 tracks from the ISOs. For The Stranger, I did the 5.1 DFFs first. It took maybe 25-30 minutes, Then I did the 2.0 tracks, which only took 2-3 minutes. I then extracted the 2.0 DFFs from the 52nd Street ISO. It took maybe 15 minutes. The 5.1 tracks took the same 25-30 minutes again. Why did the 2.0 Stranger tracks process so quickly?

I'd venture to say that the discs have not been "authored" in the same way. Someone working in the field would be able to bring some light on the matter. Send an email to Gus Skinas about this. He's authored hundreds of SACDs.

I simply find hard to believe that a Stereo layer would be created using down mixed versions. Makes no sense. If that were the intent, the Multichannel files would automatically be down mixed by the player. There would be no need for a Stereo layer. If you rip a DTS CD to Stereo, you have no choice than to get a down mixed Stereo version as there is no Stereo mix of the music on the disc to begin with. The SACD has an independent Mono/Stereo Layer to the Multichannel. No down mixing involved. It would be totally illogical..

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I'd venture to say that the discs have not been "authored" in the same way. Someone working in the field would be able to bring some light on the matter. Send an email to Gus Skinas about this. He's authored hundreds of SACDs.

I simply find hard to believe that a Stereo layer would be created using down mixed versions. Makes no sense. If that were the intent, the Multichannel files would automatically be down mixed by the player. There would be no need for a Stereo layer. If you rip a DTS CD to Stereo, you have no choice than to get a down mixed Stereo version as there is no Stereo mix of the music on the disc to begin with. The SACD has an independent Mono/Stereo Layer to the Multichannel. No down mixing involved. It would be totally illogical..

I agree with everything you say. And I cant see the down mix idea really being a cause of the fast ripping phenomena either. Even if the stereo were a down mix from the MC, the system and software would still have to process the MC information to download it. It almost seems like something remains in the system memory after ripping the MC layer that allows the stereo rip to happen much faster. But it doesn't seem to happen all the time or with any sense of repeatability I can discern.

Is Gus Skinas a member here?

I guess my point with the original post is, I just never really thought about the fact that a lot of DVDA stereo presentations are actually a down mix of the 5.1 tracks and not a dedicated stereo mix. I cant recall any of this happening with any of the Blu Rays I ripped.

 

[Cheezmo]

There is a Windows application called DVDAExplorer that will do the downmix on DVD-Audio discs that only a a 5.1 mix with the downmix option to create a stereo mix. Not sure where I got it or where you might find it though.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

There is a Windows application called DVDAExplorer that will do the downmix on DVD-Audio discs that only a a 5.1 mix with the downmix option to create a stereo mix. Not sure where I got it or where you might find it though.

Thanks. Ill check it out.

But I also wonder, if I just use DVD Audio Extractor to rip the 5.1 tracks and specify a stereo output, does the program have the ability to down mix the 5.1 properly, yielding the same mix as if I were to play the actual disk? Are the downmix instructions standard for all disks... like reduce the center and LFE channel by 3dB before they are equally split to the left/right fronts? Or are they specific to the disk somehow?

And do I really want the down mixed stereo version in 24/96 instead of the purpose mixed CD version in 16/44.1? It may even be a title by title preference.

 

[dr. simple]

There is a Windows application called DVDAExplorer that will do the downmix on DVD-Audio discs that only a a 5.1 mix with the downmix option to create a stereo mix. Not sure where I got it or where you might find it though.

I'm confused... Are there two different programs, DVD Audio Extractor and DVDAExplorer?

 

[GOS]

There is a Windows application called DVDAExplorer that will do the downmix on DVD-Audio discs that only a a 5.1 mix with the downmix option to create a stereo mix. Not sure where I got it or where you might find it though.

I'm confused... Are there two different programs, DVD Audio Extractor and DVDAExplorer?

Yes, different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[holland123]

call me stupid but I always just assumed the stereo versions on the dvd-a's were just folded down from the multi's, and never really had much use for them, fast forward 15 years and now with my hi rez portable player I love em for traveling and out and about, but i just folded down my multis instead of reripping just the stereo versions, now i guess i am missing something....

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I guess I'm not sure what you (or I) are missing. I had no use for the stereo versions until I got a NAS. With the NAS, a laptop and a portable Bluetooth speaker, I can play the same music library virtually anywhere in my home. And so can the little lady with her laptop or phone. This is one of the big advantages of a network connected media player.

I thought, why not get the highest resolution stereo tracks possible when playing back on stereo equipment? Which led me to where I am.

As I see it, there are only two options for stereo playback.

The easiest is to not worry about extracting the stereo tracks at all and just have Kodi down mix the ripped 5.1 tracks to stereo when they are being played back on a stereo system.

Alternately you could rip both the MC tracks and the stereo tracks. But this only seems to make sense if the disk in question actually has a dedicated stereo layer. If you are limited to listening to a down mix why not just let Kodi do it?

Keep in mind, this really only applies to DVD Audio and DTS CD's. The SACDs and Blu-Rays always seem to have a dedicated stereo track.

 

[Robert van Diggele]

Could it be that the missing stereo tracks are on the dvdv part of those discs? In the Video_TS folder? I have The Game ripped in 2.0 and 5.1. When I still have the disc I will check out tomorrow when ai put it in my pc.

 

[Cheezmo]

Could it be that the missing stereo tracks are on the dvdv part of those discs? In the Video_TS folder? I have The Game ripped in 2.0 and 5.1. When I still have the disc I will check out tomorrow when ai put it in my pc.

Yes, that is often the case. Pretty sure The Game DVD-Audio did it that way. You have to open the VIDEO_TS folder manually with DVD Audio Extractor.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Yes, that is often the case. Pretty sure The Game DVD-Audio did it that way. You have to open the VIDEO_TS folder manually with DVD Audio Extractor.

Hey, you guys are good.

Yes, The Game is laid out just as you described. When DVDAE is steered to the VIDEO_TS folder it offers a stereo 24/96 LPCM layer.

I tried the same trick with my Gaucho disk. All that is in its VIDEO_TS folder is a MC Dolby Digital layer.

So maybe this isn't as bad as I thought. Maybe there isn't a large number of my DVD-As that have no dedicated 2.0 hi res layer.

 

[Cheezmo]

These are my title I had to use the DVDAExplorer downmix feature on. Mostly Silverline.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Wow this really is turning into a rabbit hole.

I'm working with Queen DVDAs. I successfully ripped the 24/96 Stereo layer of The Game a short time ago by directing DVDAE to the VIDEO_TS folder. I thought I had already successfully ripped the 24/96 stereo layer of A Night At the Opera. When I went to go tag all this, I found the ANATO rip was only one long continuous FLAC file. It plays the album, but the tracks are not split.


GRRRR.... try again with DVDAE... same result. I try again, but this time I direct DVDAE it to the VIDEO_TS folder as I did for The Game. It starts to process, but then errors out telling me it cant read the format.

GRRRR... I try to rip it to MKV using makeMKV. Which works but MakeMKV has a lot of trouble with the copy protection. Still it puts out a complete MKV file. I go to convert it to FLAC using Audiomuxer. It parses ok. but then it too errors out when extracting the WAV file telling me its an invalid format.

I cant believe the high res MC tracks on these things are so easy to get at, but the hi res stereo tracks are so difficult

 

[HomerJAU]

Try Music Media Helper to convert MKV to FLAC

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Try Music Media Helper to convert MKV to FLAC

I will have to try that next time. I found another method that worked. I used MakeMKV to parse the disk. It had the same difficulty as the first time I tried, but again it completed the operation. Do not write the MKV file. MakeMKV is only needed to get the tracks decrypted. Just minimize MakeMKV and open up Audiomuxer. Use the "extract audio from DVD" option in tools. It correctly ripped the full set of 24/96 stereo tracks. It also ripped an extra garbage track that is 3 seconds long at the end. That is probably what was causing the issue.

Interesting aside.... I extracted the stereo layer of Porcupine Tree - In Absentia. Surprisingly on my DVDA, the stereo tracks are 16/48 and the MC tracks are 24/48... go figure