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MidiMagic

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Often the art of audio design is mentioned. But in the case of matrix surround I think your "black art" is most appropriate. In fact I think Severus Snape had something to do with the SQ system.

Yep. If it tests good but sounds bad your testing the wrong thing. Still testing is a required part. I guess the point is your ears & the testing should agree.

The basic QS/RM Vario-Matrix is just a great concept for quad or stereo & much of it's "sonic signature" depends on how it's implemented.

In another post I think you commented on how stereo to surround seems like magic (the good kind) to you. Discrete SACD, DVD-A, you just expect to work. But S2S can be a real surprise & I totally agree. My 1st encounter with surround sound was a stereo record (Switched on Bach) played through an ultra-simple 3rd speaker L-R hook up. I was blown away. And I've have that same appreciation today.
Actually, the heads of Columbia Records stuck their uninformed minds into SQ with a coporate directive:

They directed that any Columbia matrix system must preserve full left-front-to-right-front separation in both stereo and quad play.

Only a few systems have that property:
- Dynaco diamond
- SQ
- Dynaquad
- CD-4
- Dolby Surround

I have always used the Poincare sphere to test matrix design and calculate the effects of stereo transforms such as S2S. So I am rarely surprised by what actually happens when a technique is used.
 

chucky3042

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Actually, the heads of Columbia Records stuck their uninformed minds into SQ with a coporate directive:

They directed that any Columbia matrix system must preserve full left-front-to-right-front separation in both stereo and quad play.

Only a few systems have that property:
- Dynaco diamond
- SQ
- Dynaquad
- CD-4
- Dolby Surround

I have always used the Poincare sphere to test matrix design and calculate the effects of stereo transforms such as S2S. So I am rarely surprised by what actually happens when a technique is used.
Add Involve format to that list!!
 

Sonik Wiz

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Actually, the heads of Columbia Records stuck their uninformed minds into SQ with a coporate directive:

They directed that any Columbia matrix system must preserve full left-front-to-right-front separation in both stereo and quad play.

Only a few systems have that property:
- Dynaco diamond
- SQ
- Dynaquad
- CD-4
- Dolby Surround

I have always used the Poincare sphere to test matrix design and calculate the effects of stereo transforms such as S2S. So I am rarely surprised by what actually happens when a technique is used.
I do hope you know my comment about Snape and SQ was a frivolous joke and not worth a serious reply?

I recently enjoyed a nice meal at the local Le Fou Frog. I had a nice creme poincare sphere for desert.
 

chucky3042

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I thought the Involve format was essentially QS.
QS encoding of LF and RF does not preserve full separation in stereo playback.
Involve encode has a QS heart but is very different in that the matrix parameters is varied with the nature of the audio content, if surround is present the parameters are closer to the 0.42 but as low as 0.2 on pure stereo, in addition it is triband. The net result is a perceived perfect stereo encode and a perceived perfect surround. It actually one of my favorite patents and my 12 db magic number appears everywhere.
 

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AYanguas

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Actually, the heads of Columbia Records stuck their uninformed minds into SQ with a coporate directive:

They directed that any Columbia matrix system must preserve full left-front-to-right-front separation in both stereo and quad play.

Only a few systems have that property:
- Dynaco diamond
- SQ
- Dynaquad
- CD-4
- Dolby Surround
Just to understand and to improve my knowledge:

CD-4 was not a matrix system, but a discrete system with the rears coded in a high frequency modulation. Am I right?

Referring to just matrix systems, were you referring to EV-4 instead, perhaps?
 

par4ken

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Just to understand and to improve my knowledge:

CD-4 was not a matrix system, but a discrete system with the rears coded in a high frequency modulation. Am I right?

Referring to just matrix systems, were you referring to EV-4 instead, perhaps?
Correct CD-4 was not a matrix system.

EV-4 sounded very good in stereo playback as there was only minimal degradation of left to right (front) separation.

SQ was always my favourite system as it preserved full left to right (front) separation. Also full left to right (back) separation (when decoded) if blend is not used. IMHO, I fully agree with CBS that Left to right separation is more important than front to back separation.
 
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MidiMagic

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Just to understand and to improve my knowledge:

CD-4 was not a matrix system, but a discrete system with the rears coded in a high frequency modulation. Am I right?

Referring to just matrix systems, were you referring to EV-4 instead, perhaps?
Correct CD-4 was not a matrix system.

EV-4 sounded very good in stereo playback as there was only minimal degradation of left to right (front) separation.

SQ was always my favourite system as it preserved full left to right (front) separation. Also full left to right (back) separation (when decoded) if blend is not used. IMHO, I fully agree with CBS that Left to right separation is more important than front to back separation.
I wasn't limiting myself to matrix systems when I listed full separation systems.

CD-4 didn't code the backs with the carrier. It coded the front-to back separation. Without the demodulator, front and back are mixed together.

SQ was not my favorite because I wanted the most separation in the F to B direction. This is because I like the ambience recordings of concert halls. SQ limits ambience separation to 3 dB and the front-back logic included in ALL SQ logic decoders tends to remove the ambience. The best SQ for ambience is the 10-40 blend. with 4.0 dB.

QS has an ambience separation of 8.3 dB.
EV-4 has an ambience separation of 5.1 dB.
EV-U has an ambience separation of 5.1 dB.

The wider the LF to RF separation, the worse the ambience separation is. So F to B separation is more important to me.

The human hearing system notices these separations the most: LF to RF, and F to B.
 
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ar surround

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SQ was not my favorite because I wanted the most separation in the F to B direction. This is because I like the ambience recordings of concert halls. SQ limits ambience separation to 3 dB and the front-back logic included in ALL SQ logic decoders tends to remove the ambience. The best SQ for ambience is the 10-40 blend. with 4.0 dB.
That's an artifact of logic decoders that enhance separation. Even my DBX 3BX dynamic range expander negatively impacted the performance of my Lexicon CP-1 sound processor...As the passages got quiet, the 3BX would expand that quietness but also take ambience with it.

During my extensive use of the Surround Master V2, I have not noticed any ambience suppression. I don't know if anyone has, and I don't recall anyone mentioning it. The SM seems to dwell in the Goldilocks Zone.
 

chucky3042

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That's an artifact of logic decoders that enhance separation. Even my DBX 3BX dynamic range expander negatively impacted the performance of my Lexicon CP-1 sound processor...As the passages got quiet, the 3BX would expand that quietness but also take ambience with it.

During my extensive use of the Surround Master V2, I have not noticed any ambience suppression. I don't know if anyone has, and I don't recall anyone mentioning it. The SM seems to dwell in the Goldilocks Zone.
I resemble goldilocks
 

quadsearcher

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Involve encode has a QS heart but is very different in that the matrix parameters is varied with the nature of the audio content, if surround is present the parameters are closer to the 0.42 but as low as 0.2 on pure stereo, in addition it is triband. The net result is a perceived perfect stereo encode and a perceived perfect surround. It actually one of my favorite patents and my 12 db magic number appears everywhere.
I want to try the Involve encoder, is that still available as an evaluation module? We have a studio at work (University), and though there hasn't been a lot of music recording in the past couple years (it's mostly sports), there was one independent (stereo) record released a few years ago. The engineer there is my coworker and he is already into surround so I know he'd jump at the chance to try this. It'd be very cool to release a quad record (although that might be far in the future).
 

chucky3042

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You mean papa BEAR don't you???
Its a funny co incidence that in our sister solar company Zenaji we are designing a new monster battery of 32 KWh storage , the electronic boards in there have a seniority structure.......we call them baby bear, mama bear and you guessed it papa bear!

Here it is with little 6 feet 6 Max (for scale) with a stunned mullet look on his face:

IMG_20220428_094014.jpg
 

chucky3042

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Joined
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Messages
2,259
I want to try the Involve encoder, is that still available as an evaluation module? We have a studio at work (University), and though there hasn't been a lot of music recording in the past couple years (it's mostly sports), there was one independent (stereo) record released a few years ago. The engineer there is my coworker and he is already into surround so I know he'd jump at the chance to try this. It'd be very cool to release a quad record (although that might be far in the future).
Yep, sure do. Could you message "Overture" on the forum as he will arrange it and offer some advice
 

Sonik Wiz

👂 500 MPH EARS 👂
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Messages
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Location
Kansas City
Its a funny co incidence that in our sister solar company Zenaji we are designing a new monster battery of 32 KWh storage , the electronic boards in there have a seniority structure.......we call them baby bear, mama bear and you guessed it papa bear!

Here it is with little 6 feet 6 Max (for scale) with a stunned mullet look on his face:

View attachment 78939
My cell phone could use a 32 KWh battery. Is that something ya could shrink down?
 

tonyE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
273
Its a funny co incidence that in our sister solar company Zenaji we are designing a new monster battery of 32 KWh storage , the electronic boards in there have a seniority structure.......we call them baby bear, mama bear and you guessed it papa bear!

Here it is with little 6 feet 6 Max (for scale) with a stunned mullet look on his face:

View attachment 78939
(1) What's the current on that battery? We planned on going with a solar/battery system but the limiting factor was the 30A rating of the battery. We have a 300A panel, and even though we seldom go over 30A in total usage -lighly loaded circuits ( nevermind the AC) they just couldn't split those 30A across all the circuits. We would have had to go with 10 batteries which was ridiculous because with 175 Kw stored in those things ( 17.7 Kw per) it would have meant almost a week of storage in them batteries at our normal usage.

(2) What's the matter with Max? Did he get shocked? Did he really buy those pants?
 

chucky3042

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May I suggest you look at our AEON 1.93 KWh battery, its rated at 40 Amps each, I have 6 at my home. Be aware that all other battery chemistries NEVER PAY OFF, Lithium Titanate is warranted for 22,000 cycles (and is better than 80% capacity then). It pays off typically 2-3 times .

Max is a hillbilly and I caught him unaware in that photo!
 

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MidiMagic

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
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That's an artifact of logic decoders that enhance separation. Even my DBX 3BX dynamic range expander negatively impacted the performance of my Lexicon CP-1 sound processor...As the passages got quiet, the 3BX would expand that quietness but also take ambience with it.

During my extensive use of the Surround Master V2, I have not noticed any ambience suppression. I don't know if anyone has, and I don't recall anyone mentioning it. The SM seems to dwell in the Goldilocks Zone.
The logic decoders that use gain riding do suppress ambience when it is in non-dominant channels.

The logic decoders that use matrix varying do not suppress ambience.

The SQ wavematching with variblend do suppress ambience because they still have the front-back gain riding.
 
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