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MidiMagic

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Check out page 12 of the QS-1 manual. Sansui suggests creating six or eight channel audio from quad!

Odd. The first week I was experimenting with the Dynaco diamond, I came up with a 6-channel version.
 

chucky3042

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Dear all

I am hoping we will have stock on the SM3 in 2 weeks time, we are still waiting for the circuit boards that should come later this week.

As a reminder our QQ discount codes are:

Coupons:

QQ forum $50 coupon: smv3qq21
Upgrade $100 coupon: sm2ug2k21 BUT Dave needs your email address so he can authorise the email with this coupon, or it won't work.
 

ar surround

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I am trying to find a way to afford ONE SM and now you are saying I need TWO???
@Sonik Wiz isn't targeting you MidiMagic. He's stalking me. ;)
I'm wondering what would happen if those rear outputs from a second surround master were fed to a pair of ceiling speakers rather than the rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup. The QS1 manual briefly talked about going that route. :unsure:
 

par4ken

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I would think that by adding more SMs or other decoders you would get to the point of diminishing returns. Only so much can be extracted from a stereo mix. Even the idea of starting with a discrete quad mix and running through two decoders (as Sansui suggested) is a bit mind blowing.

The channels need correlated signals to be very effective, often discrete mixes are just that, distinct sound sources with little correlation between then, so further decoding would accomplish very little. The idea with the QS-1 is that each unit will provide further (synthesized) phase modulated signal components to the playback mix. That might sound nice but "fake" for sure.

It would be an interresting experiment in any case!
 
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Sonik Wiz

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I would think that by adding more SMs or other decoders you would get to the point of diminishing returns. Only so much can be extracted from a stereo mix.

I think this is another case where a variable "phase balance" to the decoders would be a significant contribution. But of course you are right.... the other half to my Jim Fosgate quote above is: " Of course you can only slice the pie so many ways."

I have a Proton SD-1000 that comes with 6.1 ch output ready to go. It has a stereo, music, and cinema mode. It also has separation enhancement control from zero to 50dB. In using this in 4.0 or 5.0 for music I was not impressed. Subjectively it sounded mainly like 'ol fashioned Pro Logic with mixing some front L/R to rear L/R., Using Scheiber/RM 8 point test tones I could get what I expected out of the front, but no way I could get a center side or back L/R only. Eventually I tired of this testing I hooked up the rear center back out put to two smallish speakers & positioned them between my regular rear ch speakers.

Holey moley things improved! I was not expecting this. The rear chs sprung to life had now had much better presentation of both width and depth. From this I learned that it's not just about adding another ch or speaker, it's also about what is removed or re-positioned from the regular rear speakers. This impression was not from any further testing, just listening again to music that I had auditioned before.

Side note: the adjustable separation IIRC goes from zero, 3, 18, and 50dB. It might seem like 50dB would be fun, and I didn't really hear any odd artifacts, but it made it sound dry & thin. Like there was no sense of connection or ambience between the speaker feeds. So the 18dB is what I settled on. Proof positive, as Chucky likes to tell us, that brute force separation ain't everything!
 

MidiMagic

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@Sonik Wiz isn't targeting you MidiMagic. He's stalking me. ;)
I'm wondering what would happen if those rear outputs from a second surround master were fed to a pair of ceiling speakers rather than the rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup. The QS1 manual briefly talked about going that route. :unsure:
I was sarching the idea anyway.

I would think you would have a fishhook shaped image if you used the second back speakers on the ceiling.
 
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Will the preamp module be addable to current sm3 owners? I'm looking to purchase and don't currently own a dedicated preamp (use my sansui) and wonder if I should buy now or wait?
 

chucky3042

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Will the preamp module be addable to current sm3 owners? I'm looking to purchase and don't currently own a dedicated preamp (use my sansui) and wonder if I should buy now or wait?
The preamp is being designed to be fully compatible to the SM. All SM's are programmed with the vinyl software.

I am buying the preamp and amplifier when they are available
 

workmeistr

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2017 Surround Master v1 for sale with the proceeds going to the “50 Mile March” Veterans fundraiser.

Dave gave me permission to post on this thread to let you know I'm selling my v1 to make way for a v3 and I will donate the proceeds to a Veterans charity I'm involved with: For sale: Surround Master v1, circa 2017, for charity

Thanks, and now back to your regularly scheduled thread. Bren.
 

jaysound55

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Hello all. I discovered this forum a few weeks ago and have been trying to read most of the posts re the Surround Master V3, going back to V1. I think I'm about to take the big jump and purchase an SM3.

Since the early 90s, I've owned, used and have been very satisfied with the sound from a Fosgate Audionics DSL 2 Surround Sound Decoder. It had (for its time) an extremely sophisticated de-matrix channel steering capability that for pre-DolbyDigital 5.1 gave one of the best home surround-sound experiences you could then have for both movies and music. (Jim Fosgate actually developed the original ProLogic 2 codec and steering logic for Dolby Labs but his private label's units had much more sophisticated steering logic which really increased the apparent separation between channels and significantly improved the LtRt* experience. Although discreet 5.1 DolbyDigital which obsoleted matrix surround was only a few years behind, I continued to use the Fosgate unit almost exclusively for "decoding" standard stereo music recordings thru the various music decode functions. These unit were constructed for the most part, from pretty quiet discrete components and when properly adjusted, create a very satisfying surround music experience. I really have actually been very happy listening to music through this unit for nearly 30 years now. The improvement in the listening experience are significant. Its sometimes actually difficult to listen to recordings in just 2-trk stereo. It feels like something is missing. Unfortunately, some component(s) in the Fosgate have starting to fail creating significant audio distortion. I have no clue whether or not there's anybody that can repair it because it's so old, so I figure it's time to modernize into the 2020s. The Surround Mater V3 sounds like just the solution I need.

After reading what I've found both here on the forums and on the Involve Audio website, there is one relatively minor issue I've been "concerned" about. Even as far back in 1992 when I purchased the Fosgate, the unit came with a wireless remote. to set up channel levels and tweak decoding parameters accurately generally requires that your measurements and setup adjustments be done from the listening position. From what I can seem the Surround Masters (1, 2 & 3) have all parameter adjustments on the front of the box. Is it recommended that I obtain 8, 25ft long RCA cable so I can place the SM3 next to my seat? Or are there any setup tricks I need to know so I can install the SM3 within my audio rack where it probably should be, 'cause I really don't look forward to running back and forth between the couch and the audio system to adjust the setup every time I change sources.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Encouragements?

*LtRt - "Left total Right total." The studio jargon for a 2-track multi-channel matrixed soundtrack.
I would run the 5.1 channel printmasters through a Dolby DP563 ProLogic II encoder to create a 2-Channel stereo compatible track (LtRt) for across the board compatibility on all release mediums, broadcast, DVD, Blu-ray, streaming etc. This 2-Trk matrixed "mix" is always shipped along with any other audio formats, 5.1, 7.1, Atmos etc.
 
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ar surround

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After reading what I've found both here on the forums and on the Involve Audio website, there is one relatively minor issue I've been "concerned" about. Even as far back in 1992 when I purchased the Fosgate, the unit came with a wireless remote. to set up channel levels and tweak decoding parameters accurately generally requires that your measurements and setup adjustments be done from the listening position. From what I can seem the Surround Masters (1, 2 & 3) have all parameter adjustments on the front of the box. Is it recommended that I obtain 8, 25ft long RCA cable so I can place the SM3 next to my seat? Or are there any setup tricks I need to know so I can install the SM3 within my audio rack where it probably should be, 'cause I really don't look forward to running back and forth between the couch and the audio system to adjust the setup every time I change sources.
The only adjustments on the Surround Master (V2 anyway) are total volume level and channel volume level. There are no decoding parameters other than the knob to select Involve (QS) or SQ. The only "adjustments" that I ever make are with front / back fader on my multichannel pre-amp. This adjustment is totally dependent on the specific program material and how I feel at the time...I.e. if I want more or less volume in the rears compared to the fronts.
 

jaybird100

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Hello all. I discovered this forum a few weeks ago and have been trying to read most of the posts re the Surround Master V3, going back to V1. I think I'm about to take the big jump and purchase an SM3.

Since the early 90s, I've owned, used and have been very satisfied with the sound from a Fosgate Audionics DSL 2 Surround Sound Decoder. It had (for its time) an extremely sophisticated de-matrix channel steering capability that for pre-DolbyDigital 5.1 gave one of the best home surround-sound experiences you could then have for both movies and music. (Jim Fosgate actually developed the original ProLogic 2 codec and steering logic for Dolby Labs but his private label's units had much more sophisticated steering logic which really increased the apparent separation between channels and significantly improved the LtRt* experience. Although discreet 5.1 DolbyDigital which obsoleted matrix surround was only a few years behind, I continued to use the Fosgate unit almost exclusively for "decoding" standard stereo music recordings thru the various music decode functions. These unit were constructed for the most part, from pretty quiet discrete components and when properly adjusted, create a very satisfying surround music experience. I really have actually been very happy listening to music through this unit for nearly 30 years now. The improvement in the listening experience are significant. Its sometimes actually difficult to listen to recordings in just 2-trk stereo. It feels like something is missing. Unfortunately, some component(s) in the Fosgate have starting to fail creating significant audio distortion. I have no clue whether or not there's anybody that can repair it because it's so old, so I figure it's time to modernize into the 2020s. The Surround Mater V3 sounds like just the solution I need.

After reading what I've found both here on the forums and on the Involve Audio website, there is one relatively minor issue I've been "concerned" about. Even as far back in 1992 when I purchased the Fosgate, the unit came with a wireless remote. to set up channel levels and tweak decoding parameters accurately generally requires that your measurements and setup adjustments be done from the listening position. From what I can seem the Surround Masters (1, 2 & 3) have all parameter adjustments on the front of the box. Is it recommended that I obtain 8, 25ft long RCA cable so I can place the SM3 next to my seat? Or are there any setup tricks I need to know so I can install the SM3 within my audio rack where it probably should be, 'cause I really don't look forward to running back and forth between the couch and the audio system to adjust the setup every time I change sources.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Encouragements?

*LtRt - "Left total Right total." The studio jargon for a 2-track multi-channel matrixed soundtrack.
I would run the 5.1 channel printmasters through a Dolby DP563 ProLogic II encoder to create a 2-Channel stereo compatible track (LtRt) for across the board compatibility on all release mediums, broadcast, DVD, Blu-ray, streaming etc. This 2-Trk matrixed "mix" is always shipped along with any other audio formats, 5.1, 7.1, Atmos etc.
Yes, the Surround Master v.3 is exactly what you need. You can read all you want about the SM, but, as I found, the real proof is in the hearing. I have a v.2 now, and a v.3 on order, and I can tell you, you will be blown away by how wonderful the SM is. Whether you're listening to matrixed quad sources, or extracting a surround effect from stereo recordings, you're in for a treat. I had the Jim Fosgate "Gavotte II" car surround decoder in a Honda Civic hatchback, back in the late 80's, and it made a small car sound several times its size. It had excellent separation as well, but the Surround Master is better, yet. There was some audible "pumping" with the Fosgate unit, but there's none at all with the Surround Master. It's certainly possible to use the SM for in-car surround, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone gives it a shot. But at home, it's the best sounding surround decoder I've ever heard.
 
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LB-V

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You are hard pressed to find a QQ member, who is an owner of an SM, to report anything much different than @jaybird100...we are all pretty much in agreement around here on that one. A somewhat rare condition....:ROFLMAO:

You will also have the benefit of total access to the developers and assemblers of the Involve equipment. @chucky3042 and @Overture are always nearby to impart serious technical information, support, philosophies, info on product developments and genuine good humor....well, humor nevertheless.
 

J. PUPSTER

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You are hard pressed to find a QQ member, who is an owner of an SM, to report anything much different than @jaybird100...we are all pretty much in agreement around here on that one. A somewhat rare condition....:ROFLMAO:

You will also have the benefit of total access to the developers and assemblers of the Involve equipment. @chucky3042 and @Overture are always nearby to impart serious technical information, support, philosophies, info on product developments and genuine good humor....well, humor nevertheless.
Yup, just know Chucky is a self proclaimed liar and Dave is just plain crazy :QQlove
 

fredblue

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That was very interesting, thanks! My first real quad decoder was the QS-1, but that & the manual was traded away about a hundred years ago. Amazing to think that at the very launch of quadraphonic sound they were already thinking about much more than four. And indeed, even ceiling speakers are mentioned!!

This reminds me of a quad friend I was in touch with back in the days of MCS Review. His main goal was to recreate as close to possible a live rock concert performance in his home. He used a pair of Sansui QSD-2's to do this. He used the 1st decoder to drive 4 speakers in the front listening area. The rear speakers sat wide and to the outside of the front ch speakers. The QSD-2 was operated in the Synthesizer mode. So a sound panned left to right moved left to right across the front soundstage starting at the nominal left back signal. For the rear signals he used another QSD-2 in the Hall mode with speakers behind him to derive performance venue acoustics. This gave him what he was looking for: a wide front simulating the width on a live performance stage. And the rears gave him the depth of "being there." He said by varying the rear ch level he could go from standing in front of the stage to middle of the audience. Pretty cool.
ceiling surround speakers in the seventies!?! 🤯

Quad was so sooooo way wayyyyyy ahead of its' time 💘😍
 

Scott65

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You are hard pressed to find a QQ member, who is an owner of an SM, to report anything much different than @jaybird100...we are all pretty much in agreement around here on that one. A somewhat rare condition....:ROFLMAO:

You will also have the benefit of total access to the developers and assemblers of the Involve equipment. @chucky3042 and @Overture are always nearby to impart serious technical information, support, philosophies, info on product developments and genuine good humor....well, humor nevertheless.
Based on personal experience I can say Involve's after sales service is second to none.
 
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