Surround sound for music is a dumb idea

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ummagumma

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With apologies in advance, I need to say that this is a common and annoying type of statement.
1. " I know someone who......" is hearsay that disconnects and insulates anyone from any responsibility for the statement.
2. The repairer is qualified to say that the subject gear is made like crap but is probably not qualified to say that it sounds like crap.

I don't want to jeopardize his business by name dropping. By all means, keep arguing amongst yourselves.
 

tonyE

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That's my approach too. Apparently I was raised to want to keep things I invested in for a spell (life if possible). And then to fix things that broke. I guess I was also raised to give someone the stank eye (and not my money) when they pull shenanigans like trying to sell me duplicate hardware to get access to software hidden inside of it (Atmos at present) but I digress.

I have a rack of Crown Macrotech amps for a small PA that have a 2nd job of powering my surround system. I'm kind of a scavenger that way sometimes. (Headroom is on point! :D)

So... Critiquing different amps? Assuming this is more than pointing out malfunctions or obvious distortions, OK. I might be interested and listen. This should be a small player next to stuff like setup/alignment in a room, the room itself, and examples of destructive mastering (the hyped volume war stuff). When someone seems to not be aware of those things or can seemingly not hear anything wrong with a treble-y volume war mastered release, I'm not going to take any comments about things much lower on the list all that seriously. My first thought in those scenarios is that I think something else is messing with someone. But I think the amps built into my Genelecs are pretty OK too so what do I know. Leveling your speakers in the same plane should have more impact than the power amp used short of malfunction.

I mean, we have all this grifter crap from Worst Purchase and Amazon nowadays and that stuff IS basically malfunctioning out of the box! I don't think anyone means to include any of that in these conversations though.

Well.... I like people who churn through equipment... because then we can buy that stuff at a 50% discount.

The thing is that as you get older you accumate stuff... lots of stuff.... and yes, some stuff needs to be fixed (right now I got two fine 70s receivers being rebuilt)... and if you are an old collector, well, you have built an awesome stash and keeping everything up and running properly.

Done right, some components are worthwhile keeping, others, well you just got to throw away... it took me 20 years to get rid of the AC core for a '70 Vega.... another 30 to dump the stash Centronix printer cables, got rid of most of my early analog digital gear, etc... but I still have the Sony SuperBeta and SuperVHS and Laserdics....

Now then... when we critique the sound of equipment we assume that room design and component placement have already been taken care of: we rebuilt our house and not only are my rooms well sized but I had dedicated AC home runs installed as well! For the most part we are discussing nuances -because we are audiophiles.

Genelecs... active speakers do pose a different set of issues because then we are discussing a 'system'. I got two pairs of active Quads (12LS and 9LS) and they sound very good... and I bought my son a pair of Audioengine A5s... at that point we would not be discussing amplifiers, because.. you really can't.

But, it doesn't mean we can't pick on the built in DACs ( hint, I don't use the Quad's Red Book DACs).

After all, a world with audiophiles is gonna be a world with opinions, because I know someone who has opinions..
 
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LuvMyQuad

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@toniE, it seems like your hobby is listening to equipment not music.

and I'm not going the way of Atmos. Forget it.
I said that once.

The analog audio stuff is more of a refinement.... I seldom sell what I buy... so I got the updated Linn LP12/Trampolin/Ittok/Grado Master 2 well maintained with a new suspension... the CJ PV9 with the teflon caps, and a number of amps and speakers available.... DIY Aleph 5s into the Maggie 1.7i's and the B1Korg/DIY F5 into my oldie ADS L810s for a taste of "rock"... Oh, the VPI HW1.6 ( knock on wood ) is still working well after all this years!
So like, an audio equipment hoarder

... but the LPs are a different story. I like the way they sound and every time I change the turntable/preamp/ADC I automatically invalidate everything I've recorded... meaning the sound changes. Besides, with clean records, I find that they don't wear out.
Here's where we differ. Assuming the mastering is decent on both (a big assumption these days) I have no love for vinyl. In fact, when the mastering is comparable on both formats, I prefer the digital. I just smile at all you people that believe that vinyl is somehow a superior format.

The thing is that 2 channel audio has changed a lot too.. Those Timpanis don't hold up when compared with the current crop of Maggies... and the SP6 will sound outdated when compared with something like my factory upgraded PV9 with those teflon caps (expensive, rare and worth every penny in sound quality). I mean, even something that moves slowly, with somewhat fixed in standards does evolve over time and equipment from the 70s is simply bested by current stuff.
We differ here too. If an analog component sounded great 30 years ago, it should still sound great today, assuming it isnt broken somehow. The sound of the instruments you reproduce hasn't changed and there have been no significant breakthroughs in analog technology that I am aware of. I have heard newer Maggies several times by people who really think they are something special. To me they still sound as bass deficient as my T-1Ds did when I owned them. The best thing about them was the huge image they projected, and with MCH sources, all that matters so much less. They simply aren't worth the room they take up for me.

I don't listen to capacitors either. I've tried long and hard. They just sit there and make no sound.

My guess is you believe in burning in wire and cable too.... come on... be honest.
 

gene_stl

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I like FET power amps, but prefer to buy Haflers and ones of similar ilk (ie smart cinema)
It's just a record player.
 
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tonyE

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@toniE, it seems like your hobby is listening to equipment not music.


I said that once.


So like, an audio equipment hoarder


Here's where we differ. Assuming the mastering is decent on both (a big assumption these days) I have no love for vinyl. In fact, when the mastering is comparable on both formats, I prefer the digital. I just smile at all you people that believe that vinyl is somehow a superior format.


We differ here too. If an analog component sounded great 30 years ago, it should still sound great today, assuming it isnt broken somehow. The sound of the instruments you reproduce hasn't changed and there have been no significant breakthroughs in analog technology that I am aware of. I have heard newer Maggies several times by people who really think they are something special. To me they still sound as bass deficient as my T-1Ds did when I owned them. The best thing about them was the huge image they projected, and with MCH sources, all that matters so much less. They simply aren't worth the room they take up for me.

I don't listen to capacitors either. I've tried long and hard. They just sit there and make no sound.

My guess is you believe in burning in wire and cable too.... come on... be honest.

No, no, no... I listen to music... as I wrote elsewhere... my wife noted last year that our main system: 'sounds like music, not a stereo'.... that offers us the chance to enjoy the music.

The point is NOT to hear the capacitors, you see?

I listen to music... and my turntable, and 4000 LPs, happily makes music. And, if you read what I posted, you will notice that I also listen to digital streaming: Tidal HiFi... mostly Masters when possible.

Pretty much what I don't listen to is Red Book recordings from the 80s. Pffftt...

As far as old components... well, I do have components from 30 years ago, but the technology has advanced: materials, design, manufacturing, etc... so a great sounding component from 30 years ago may NOT sound so good today. That's why we have the notion of "vintage sound"... One of the things they weren't doing 30 years ago, well 40, was pay that much attention to speaker soundstaging, at the time they were busier with dynamics and frequency response. My ADS L810s are an example of East Coast sound, as opposed to the West Coast sound of the JBL L100, remember those?

Today, most every speaker with aspirations of good sound will out soundstate both of them, BUT, those two old speakers will out ZZ Top many of today's modern speakers... that's why I maintain a "vintage" speaker in my living room.... it makes ROCK sound really good.

And no, I'm hot a hoarder, just a collector. I mean, everybody needs 20 audio amps in their house.

For the rest, if you are a ROCK listener, you will simply not be happy with any Magnepan... they don't play loud or deep enough for you. I have tried running two Entec SW-5 woofers with mine and it helps a bit but, IMHO, they muddy up the bass for other types of music. Hence, I dug out the ADS L810s for rock.

Oh, burning cables.... I wouldn't know. I usually buy them all used, except for the Triple Virgin Signature MkIII Mercury that goes into the speaker connection troughs... that I had to buy on the beach from the Mexican Drug Lords that "import" them up the coast from Colombia. Those sound much better when a 440V, 24KHz, 10A signal is used to bias them, it adds an electricity to the performance that truly imparts the presentation with a jolt in the midrange.

BTW: I have all the original Supertramp LPs, including a MoFi of Breakfast in America. I saw them live in '80. You ought to hear them on the LP... Crisis? What Crisis?
 
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tonyE

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I am always willing to argue points. However TonyE has degenerated into poor manners so the thread is done for me. He does have a talent for receiving the info he wants to hear. I will correct his last errors one by one:

....
I would suggest that TonyE go back to school and take some classes in 1) critical thinking 2) rhetoric so that after he straightens out his ideas he can present them without using offensive devices such as name calling, silly humor and using arguments first in one direction and then in the exact opposite direction. I am done talking to him.

Hmm... seriously? You've been calling me names all along. And there you go again, I simply pointed out your logic and obviously it is not based on listening to new stuff. You love measurements, I pointed out that there are three kinds of audiophiles:

The Purely Objective, aka the Julian Hirsh acolytes.
The Subjective School
Those of us in the middle that seek a balance in it all.

Maybe I need to install an HP1980B in the rack.... I wonder if I can get an HPIB interface for a laptop, then I can write some code to take snapshots of the signal every second and display the comparison as a waterfall on the laptop screen.

Who needs speakers then?

Oh "silly humor"... well, yes, I think life is too short to take it too seriously. You might want to lighten up....

Let me ask you... have you ever gotten off you chair and danced to the music your stereo is putting out?

I have. It's really FUN!

Or... do you sit there, with a white noise generator, looking at the audio analyzer and making sure the frequency is +/- 0.2 db from 20Hz to 20KHz at 90db? Using a solid state cardiod microphone, of course. No Telefunken U47 for this serious work.

Dude... lighten up a bit, have some fun!

You can tell this clearly at a Philharmonic performance... many people will sit there stoically listening to something like Beethoven's 2nd Symphony... but, if you look, you will see 10%, or so, of the heads bobbing with the music.

Those are MY kind of people.
 
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JonUrban

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First off, the original subject of this thread already had a thread here from while back. I didn't go look for it because at this point I don't really care.

Secondly, it's nice to argue back and forth about stuff but please try and be cordial to each other. There's not many people who take this stuff as serious as most of us do, and there's no need for us to bicker among ourselves.

Ya know?
 

tonyE

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Hey Jon....

I donated some money to the forum via Paypal, but it doesn't show in my profile?

What gives?
 

JonUrban

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OK - So sue me. I did some checking. Here are some of the past Steve Guttenberg threads at QQ. Maybe you'll remember them:








 

JonUrban

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Hey Jon....

I donated some money to the forum via Paypal, but it doesn't show in my profile?

What gives?

Hi TonyE

That's not me anymore. I did QQ when it was just a hobby thing. Now it's a business. You have to PM @QuadSound and Angie will fix whatever needs fixing. Sorry, but I don't get involved in any of that stuff anymore. I'm more of an honorary Mod/Admin at this point
 

LB-V

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First off, the original subject of this thread already had a thread here from while back. I didn't go look for it because at this point I don't really care.

Secondly, it's nice to argue back and forth about stuff but please try and be cordial to each other. There's not many people who take this stuff as serious as most of us do, and there's no need for us to bicker among ourselves.

Ya know?
Hello Jon, always a pleasure to see a note from you.

Thank you for reminding us we all just enjoy this stuff in our own ways...
 

jimfisheye

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I have a local audiophile buddy, who is friends with Nelson Pass. (He was a big exec and has a Home Theater that I imagine he spent about $400K on.) He reports that NP does not think that differences in capacitors are very audible.
One of the few areas where I agree with him. Accidentally. I do also like FET power amps, but prefer to buy Haflers and ones of similar ilk (ie smart cinema)
What about coupling capacitors that pass the main signal?
 

tonyE

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I am not sure what you are asking. I am quoting hearsay that was a summary statement not a transcription. Although I suspect the conversation might have been interesting because the guy here in St. Louis is brilliant.

The aforementioned Dyna Stereo 120 has a largely undeserved bad reputation for not sounding so good. It has a main output coupling capacitor , the output being biased to 50% of V cc. On the one hand I did not use it to drive the upper mid range or tweeters. Maybe in 1977 I agreed that reputation.
On the other hand I have come to believe that if someone took the trouble to arrange a proper test that most "golden eared" audiophiles would not be able to discern that it was the one playing. IF the test was done carefully. For the test to be fair to the Dyna 1) it would need to be carefully and correctly biased (ie biased hot enough to to not have crossover notch) and warmed up. 2) The levels involved would need to keep it out of clipping and the other amp would need to be comparable in power. 3) The usual requirements for an ACTUAL test ie level matching and blinding (preferably DOUBLE).

I just realized that you may be referring to the marketing department meme "No coupling capacitors in the signal path" Once again my opinion (it is an opinion) is that you measure the performance of the amp and then also listen to it if it makes you happy and I think capacitors in the signal path are rather unlikely to be discernable.

Would it be possible for you to stick to facts and not opinions and putative statements?

The ideas of double blind tests, measurement based reviews, etc... have been around for eons... it was the reason why people like JG Holt and Harry Pearson created Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. They were tired of that.

(Plus the connection between the advertising and the reviews..).

I can hear the effects of the caps in my preamp... and that is a fact. But you folks keep telling me that I can't. And you haven't even heard my system... I have lived with this preamp since it was almost new, and I've made changes to it... tubes, updated the power supply, updated to the teflon caps and I can always hear the difference.

God Forbid I bring up the fact that I recently upgraded the power supplies in my DIY amps... with lots more capacitance and better grounding... and, gulp!, I can hear the difference.

Or rather, I hear more music and less component.

Again, you can not make such general statements... because in essence you are stating opinions about opinions (hearsay, "I suspect", "believe", etc...) and then doing an Appeal to Authority ( the guy is "brilliant").

Don't you see?

Why don't you accept that you are an objectivist and be done with it?
 

tonyE

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Yes. I started reading Stereo Review, High Fidelity and Audio in the early 70s and had subscriptions until they all went out of business.

They had nice pictures, though.
 
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