Larry Fast Synergy Surround Remix Possibilities

[rtbluray]

As to disc formats, because I work in PCM, not DSD, it’s a choice between Blu-Ray and DVD-A. Both can accept DTS-HD Master Audio which is a lossless multichannel codec capable of 24/96 PCM audio. It’s essentially the same as MLP. DTS-HD MA also embeds a lossy lower bitrate codec for back-compatibility with older players, and a fold down for stereo. Blu-Ray as a container has more space for including other stereo and archival mix content, but it has a more expensive production cycle.

Any thoughts?

If Blu-Ray or DVDA-V production is what you are after, then you have to speak with Neil Wilkes, who runs Opus Productions in the UK.
Unfortunately, he's no longer actively on this forum (having last been here almost 2 years ago) but I would be more than happy to send you a private message with his email so you can get in contact with him.

His Blu-Ray & DVDA-V authoring work includes releases for King Crimson, The Pineapple Thief, Porcupine Tree, XTC, Yes, and many others!

 

[MIDIQ]

I prefer physical discs also, so what ever format you would go with would great. I also have universal player.

 

[kap'n krunch]

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the comments suggesting labels, but you should know that I already own my own label with both physical and digital distribution agreements in place for the Synergy catalog worldwide. The digital side contractually is a little less flexible for distributing outside of the major channels. That is, the agreements that place my music on iTunes, Amazon Play and many others don’t permit me the freedom to separately make and sell my own FLAC files. On the other hand, I do have a lot of flexibility to pick various disc formats for releases that the wholesale distributors supply everywhere from the local hifi/stereo emporium to Amazon.com.

Organizations like Dutton-Vocalion would be free to buy export copies or license for UK manufacturing if they were interested in selling through their own channels.

I might consider a Pledge Music pre-order program for disc manufacturing simply to gauge the interest so that an appropriate press run is ordered. My studio is set up for surround production as I’ve been doing 5.1 for radio, TV and film for a number of years. Surround mix production and mastering is not a problem. I often do mixing and mastering for other artists and post-production AV work.

As to disc formats, because I work in PCM, not DSD, it’s a choice between Blu-Ray and DVD-A. Both can accept DTS-HD Master Audio which is a lossless multichannel codec capable of 24/96 PCM audio. It’s essentially the same as MLP. DTS-HD MA also embeds a lossy lower bitrate codec for back-compatibility with older players, and a fold down for stereo. Blu-Ray as a container has more space for including other stereo and archival mix content, but it has a more expensive production cycle.

Any thoughts?

DVD-A with MLP 5.1 (or 4.0) with a DTS 96/24 stream , although the mandatory stream is DD, but it can be excluded and have a DTS one instead with some tweaking.

 

[stormchaser]

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the comments suggesting labels, but you should know that I already own my own label with both physical and digital distribution agreements in place for the Synergy catalog worldwide. The digital side contractually is a little less flexible for distributing outside of the major channels. That is, the agreements that place my music on iTunes, Amazon Play and many others don’t permit me the freedom to separately make and sell my own FLAC files. On the other hand, I do have a lot of flexibility to pick various disc formats for releases that the wholesale distributors supply everywhere from the local hifi/stereo emporium to Amazon.com.

Organizations like Dutton-Vocalion would be free to buy export copies or license for UK manufacturing if they were interested in selling through their own channels.

I might consider a Pledge Music pre-order program for disc manufacturing simply to gauge the interest so that an appropriate press run is ordered. My studio is set up for surround production as I’ve been doing 5.1 for radio, TV and film for a number of years. Surround mix production and mastering is not a problem. I often do mixing and mastering for other artists and post-production AV work.

As to disc formats, because I work in PCM, not DSD, it’s a choice between Blu-Ray and DVD-A. Both can accept DTS-HD Master Audio which is a lossless multichannel codec capable of 24/96 PCM audio. It’s essentially the same as MLP. DTS-HD MA also embeds a lossy lower bitrate codec for back-compatibility with older players, and a fold down for stereo. Blu-Ray as a container has more space for including other stereo and archival mix content, but it has a more expensive production cycle.

Any thoughts?

I have a universal player and will be happy with whatever. Having said that, if you aren't going to be including lots of extra stuff, then a DVD-A is probably fine (although Blu-Ray will remain supported longer than DVD-A will likely be by universal disc player manufacturers). I wore out my older Synergy cassettes back in the day. I am eagerly looking forward to this!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Are there any disk players in current production that actually still support MPL ? Maybe one Sony model IIRC?

 

[4-earredwonder]

Are there any disk players in current production that actually still support MPL ? Maybe one Sony model IIRC?

The Sony UBP X-800 will support MLP DVD~Audio but all subsequent Sony 4K players will not.

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-UBP-X800-Ultra-Blu-ray-Player/dp/B01N4RCPKO/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1543866576&sr=1-3&keywords=sony+X800+4K+player

 

[ssully]

Download preferred.

If it has to be increasingly obsolete (and ecologically unsound) physical media, please, *not* SACD, for the love of all that is holy. It's ridiculously over-engineered, and difficult to convert to files (a lot of us 'rip' our discs to play them from hard drives instead).

Stick to PCM: either BluRay or DVD-A. (Or DVD-V with an LPCM 4.0 option, if there's enough space)

 

[MrSmithers]

Great that you're considering releasing this Larry! Fantastic stuff!!

I would also prefer downloads. We did have a recent poll on QQ
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/important-thoughts-please-regarding-legit-5-1-downloads.25562/

The costs associated with licensing the physical media, plus logistics, plus a margin for the shop that sells it, plus postage - seems a bit of a waste to me. Considering it's just another way of transporting digital files.... If it's a headache to do because of existing deals so be it... You could ask Amazon if they'd consider selling lossless quad files?!? They sell everything else (including the kitchen sink) and it would increase sales of Alexa enabled speakers?!

Anyway thanks a lot for thinking of releasing this. I'm sure you'll get a lot of sales either way, and a good way to protect the quad legacy...

 

[mlrocker]

I'm 99% digital, but I understand some people have bookcases to fill...

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Well I do think that the majority of us still have DVDA capability with our older combo players , so that was my rationale for mentioning that medium.


Also of consideration might be 96/24 DTS DVD .

All releases of reissues by Jethro Tull are using this format btw.

 

[bktouchstone]

I think blu ray will be around a while so in terms of avoiding obsolete inventory it is a good bet for longevity and available players. Also there are good lossless formats available. Whatever you decide it is a day one purchase for me!

 

[JonUrban]

Personally, I would prefer a DVD-Audio, but the format got torpedoed by hardware and marketing issues, so it's pretty much dormant at this point. Still viable as the DVD portion of any DVD-Audio can be played on a DVD player, so you cover both basis.

A DVD with DTS-MA works as well I suppose.

BluRay and SACD add more expense, and it would be pretty expensive to go back to Q8............

 

[Fourplay]

I often do mixing and mastering for other artists and post-production AV work.

As to disc formats, because I work in PCM, not DSD, it’s a choice between Blu-Ray and DVD-A. Both can accept DTS-HD Master Audio which is a lossless multichannel codec capable of 24/96 PCM audio. It’s essentially the same as MLP. DTS-HD MA also embeds a lossy lower bitrate codec for back-compatibility with older players, and a fold down for stereo. Blu-Ray as a container has more space for including other stereo and archival mix content, but it has a more expensive production cycle.

Any thoughts?

Welcome from me to the forum!

I think it is great that you can do your mastering in-house, as that will help you to keep your expenses down.

For me the most important thing is that you do not get discouraged or bogged down in the annoying format wars, and that you move forward with the project and release the music.

Most of us can manage whatever format you ultimately decide on, and most of us are chomping at the bit to hear your work in true discrete lossless form. I have enjoyed your music in the various formats that have been made available to date, but it is always wonderful to "peel away the veil" and hear the production as clearly and cleanly as possible. Your efforts in this regard are much appreciated, and our membership will do our best to reward your efforts by purchasing whatever becomes available.

Thanks again for participating here, and rest assured that I have some cash standing by for your lovingly preserved masterpiece!

Oh, and please do consider producing and releasing surround mixes of your other work!

 

[kfbkfb]

I suggest a (region free) Blu-ray disc with the following Audio Tracks
(for the "Electronic Realizations For Rock Orchestra" album):

1. Dolby Digital 4.0 (for compatibility with most Home Theater Systems):
The Original Discrete Quadraphonic Mix.

2. Dolby TrueHD 2.0 (or Stereo PCM) [at least 20bit/96kHz - see link]:
https://tams.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/lehre/2000ws/vorlesung/audioverarbeitung/high-quality-audio-coding.pdf
The QS Encoded Stereo Mix.

3. Dolby TrueHD 4.0 [at least 20bit/96kHz]:
(Same Quad Mix as in 1., but with maximum fidelity)

4. Dolby ATMOS (TrueHD container):
a. 4.0.1 (Same Quad Mix as in 1., no LFE, 1 new Overhead Channel)
or
b. 7.1.4 (7 Speaker Surround Mix, LFE, 4 Overhead Channels)

Kirk Bayne

 

[Q-Eight]

Should we make this a poll? That way, Mr. Fast can get an idea of how many folks are interested and which format choice is the most poopular.

 

[JonUrban]

........ That is, the agreements that place my music on iTunes, Amazon Play and many others don’t permit me the freedom to separately make and sell my own FLAC files.........

Any thoughts?

Larry,

Do those digital agreements you signed pertain only to stereo files? Maybe you could get around those permissions if you only sold surround downloads? Or, maybe you could offer the surround downloads to those providers, and if they decline, then you might be able to sell them yourself.

Might be worth checking out. As for me, you can tell iTunes, Amazon Play, and others that I promise I would NEVER buy a stereo download directly from you. I promise!

 

[McCrutchy]

Hi Larry,

Since you have four-channel music archived at 96/24 and work in PCM as opposed to DSD, I would suggest doing an audio-only Blu-ray release. Since Electronic Realizations for Rock Orchestra, for example, is about 47 minutes, you would have ample space to include both the untouched 96/24 LPCM 4.0 (9216 kbps) and 96/24 LPCM 2.0 (4608 kbps) tracks on a single-layered BD-25 disc. Then, this would allow for more or less maximum compatibility with consumer hardware, so there really shouldn't be any need to go to the expense of any audio compression codecs like TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, unless you're looking to provide additional content like a ton of alternate mixes or many additional tracks.

I know Universal Music were doing a lot of these types of discs, and they still are, though recently they've only been in box sets or classical music releases. I believe the most recent ones have been produced by MSM Studios in Munich, Germany, going by the included booklets.

EDIT: To be clear, I have no problem with SACD, either, it's simply that you mentioned your master files are already in PCM and not DSD, so the issue of DSD being "superior" to PCM is a moot point. If it's cheaper and/or simpler to have Quadraphonic Hybrid SACDs manufactured like Dutton Vocalion in the UK does, then I would certainly go that route. I simply picked Blu-ray Audio for Blu-ray's storage capacity, and because I think it might well be easier and cheaper, especially in the long run if you end up doing multiple releases.

On a personal note, I do have to differ with some here and say that I have no desire to purchase digital media or downloads, but I would happily pay for a physical copies of all your albums in high-resolution multichannel and/or stereo-only if applicable.

Thanks for taking the time to post here!

 

[doppelbock]

I guess the next question I have would be...when? Any target date for the first set (and we won't hold you to it as I think we here are all well aware of the wrenches that can be tossed into plans)...and has the situation at Pledge made you step back and rethink the release strategy?

 

[CINERAMAX]

Larry, I purchased your record in sq back in the seventies one of my favs.

Last year I had Andrew Poulain the WW director of DOLBY CINEMA PRODUCTS in my lab in Miami and was playing for him a bunch of quad and 5.1 fusion and prog rock upmixed in dts neural-x, I was pitching to him the fact that THE MOOG is the ideal instrument to take flight and do sonic pirouettes in the room via Dolby Atmos remixes. I did not have Synergy on hand but went through all the blu ray Emerson Lake and Palmer Moog solos, Andrew really got into it (manually moving the imaginary Moog pans with his hand in the air) and SUPER-AGREED, ATMOS was meant for playing the MOOG. SYNERGY and Camel Lunar Sea could be the greatest Atmos Music releases of all time. There are tools that will capture and objectivize the individual instruments even from a quad mix, they can split it into many sound objects. Dolby will help separate the virtual voicings into discrete objects that then can be moved about the room. Go for it LF! Dolby will foot the bill.

These remixes are now being made by UMC and others, IT'S THE FUTURE If you would like for Dolby to supply you with ATMOS recording kit or assistance I believe Synergy in Atmos would be a top charter again! If you need a contact at Dolby my email is [email protected]

CAMEL LUNAR SEA would be great but the entire Synergy would totally knock Atmos off the park!

 

[timbre4]

Larry, I purchased your record in sq back in the seventies one of my favs.
CAMEL LUNAR SEA would be great but the entire Synergy would totally knock Atmos off the park!

Thanks for this post I have shared it with Larry.