The Demise of disc formats

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My old (11-12 year old) Dell desktop I optioned out has a BD writer drive, which even back then didn't cost much, and it's still working today 🤞. The problem is, I had high hopes that the extra space and potential for improved content (i.e. movies; Hi-Def surround, Atmos etc.) would take over and finally give us that digital silver bullet we were after. This just doesn't seem to have happened sadly. Like the High Fidelity Pure Audio stuff that's dead effectively now. I ripped this Miles Davis the other day and checked the DRs and they were abysmal 6's-7's, so mastering still has to be crucial to good sound. I mostly buy 80's CDs now for non-pushed sound quality. And I still want my physical discs if I can get them.
 
My old (11-12 year old) Dell desktop I optioned out has a BD writer drive, which even back then didn't cost much, and it's still working today 🤞. The problem is, I had high hopes that the extra space and potential for improved content (i.e. movies; Hi-Def surround, Atmos etc.) would take over and finally give us that digital silver bullet we were after. This just doesn't seem to have happened sadly. Like the High Fidelity Pure Audio stuff that's dead effectively now. I ripped this Miles Davis the other day and checked the DRs and they were abysmal 6's-7's, so mastering still has to be crucial to good sound. I mostly buy 80's CDs now for non-pushed sound quality. And I still want my physical discs if I can get them.
I think one reason it's dead is that studios aren't willing to pay the extra Authoring costs for HPFA. However you can replicate it with a bit of work just with HMV/the easier to create non-java menus on Bluray, so uh, prolly not.
 
Which is so symptomatic of the current millennial generation it makes me want to puke.
Since when has everything in the exact same format ever been a reality?
In analogue days we had Vinyl, 8-track, cassette, reels.
In digital days we have CD, DVD, SACD & Blu-ray
CD, DVD & Bluray.
Everything else is a variation on the same theme.

Not quite.

I HAD my collection in one format from its inception until they decided to stop making records.

From about 1915 until 1947, there was only one format - the 78 rpm record.

That was not "vinyl", it was shellac. Vinyl made its debut in 1947 with the 33 rpm record.

Then from 1947 to 1965, the phonograph record was still the primary format, and only one player is required to play all phonograph records. Reel to reel and the early cartridges (4-track, and RCA) were such a tiny minority that they didn't influence the market much. Also, there were 3 different reel formats in use then. I used reels mainly for creating sounds and programs.

The first real invasion into the market was the 8-track cartridge, primarily for use in the car. I think I had maybe 12 cartridges (and they were given to me, along with a player, by someone who was leaving the format).

When quadraphonics appeared, I chose only the matrix record formats to keep my major collection homogeneous and needing only one player. CD-4 would have required adding a second player that could not play some of the older records.

The next step was the cassette (1972 to about 2010). I have about 100 of those. Again, most were either gifts or my own creations.

I did not indulge at all in the other short-lived formats (Elcaset, VHS-audio, and several others).

When the CD became the major format and the phonograph record was removed from the market, it split my collection in two. I no longer had most of my collection in one format.

I am using .wav and .mp3 formats for my own creations, along with a 4-track multitrack.

Meanwhile I have had VHS and DVD for video - another forced bifurcation.

They want to bifurcate things again with Blu-ray.

I am now starting to buy records again,
 
Here in the US, there was a series of paperbacks called "Magnum Easy Eye" that used large print and pale green paper to allegedly make them easier to read. I'm not sure how long they were around, but my strongest memories of them were from around 1971.

I had *one* of them that didn't spontaneously self-destruct in exactly the way you describe.
Wow, that brought back some memories. I remember reading some of those back in Jr. High. Journey to the Center of the Earth was one.
 
From about 1915 until 1947, there was only one format - the 78 rpm record.

I can't help myself here and have to go Full Metal Pedant: Even back in those days there were format wars: Cylinder vs. disc and, in the disc world, vertical vs. horizontal modulation. Speeds initially weren't standardized and outliers like Pathé were producing massive 20" discs.

There were even discs with a few odd spindle hole sizes because initially even that was covered by patents.

16" discs for radio use hung on for quite a while and even those weren't standardized: Inside vs. outside start, horizontal vs. vertical modulation, different stylus sizes and competing EQ curves.

Victor introduced long-playing 33.33RPM discs very early on, but they were unreliable.
 
I'll try to describe what I think is different (and intentional).

The format for the audio signals in the wires became line level.
Then there were a few storage formats. Like vinyl and tape.

The analog audio signal is still line level "format" and this isn't likely to change any time soon.

Alright, so we add a digital storage format!
This was and still is PCM.

Initially, the storage format was repurposed VHS tape.
Then .wav file, physical CD, and DAT tape.

This format expanded with higher definition capability but the PCM format has not changed and remains backwards compatible to lowly 16 bit at 44.1k sample rate.
Storage formats grew to include dvd and bluray discs.

An interloper came along on the scene! DSD
Sony wanted to make a new "digital language" that was just as capable as HD PCM but would lock out PCM audio so they could compete with it. It wasn't an upgrade. It is literally exactly as capable as HD PCM. As an isolated example, absolutely nothing is wrong with is as a format. It's the trashy desperate style of competition that was the problem.

DSD aside, we have PCM digital containers for audio (and DA converters that decode it) and then we still have line level for audio signals.

All the audio equipment uses this. Adding channels to make more immersive surround formats expands from the current formats and simply adds more channels. It's all PCM encoded digitally stored audio. We have .wav files (and lossless flac compressed wav) to store it and any computer system lets you handle and play the files with many choices of media player apps.

All this crap going on locking out certain formats is artificial. It doesn't follow any limitation of the technology. THAT's the difference and THAT's the part that makes you pause and say "Hey...wait a minute!" when you see this stuff. Atmos for example is simply not being released to consumers yet. It uses PCM audio. The decoder codec that handles the extended channels is simply being bundled into hardware in the firmware chips to keep it hidden and proprietary. It's artificial 'copy protection gone wild' stuff and greedy desperate business practices at play rather than a truly new and different format.

I know the world isn't black and white and people have to be creative protecting their intellectual property sometimes. This has gone WAY too far though IMHO and it affects people's enjoyment of music.
 
Look over here, Lots of Discs for Sale:
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/
The original poster was discussing the matter that large chain stores were not selling discs there anymore and - in New Zealand. Best Buy over here quit selling SACD and DVD-Audio in the 2000s. But the discs haven’t gone away, you buy them from online retail stores now.
 
True, but you get the titles you can, while they’re cheap. And be on the lookout for deals. Recently, there were three Shania Twain SACDs of “Up!” for only $18 dollars each on eBay, from a trusted seller. I already have the title, so I passed. Of course, right now DV has dozens of great Quad titles for sale.
 
I can't help myself here and have to go Full Metal Pedant: Even back in those days there were format wars: Cylinder vs. disc and, in the disc world, vertical vs. horizontal modulation. Speeds initially weren't standardized and outliers like Pathé were producing massive 20" discs.

There were even discs with a few odd spindle hole sizes because initially even that was covered by patents.

16" discs for radio use hung on for quite a while and even those weren't standardized: Inside vs. outside start, horizontal vs. vertical modulation, different stylus sizes and competing EQ curves.

Victor introduced long-playing 33.33RPM discs very early on, but they were unreliable.

I know the world isn't black and white and people have to be creative protecting their intellectual property sometimes. This has gone WAY too far though IMHO and it affects people's enjoyment of music.

Cylinder vs. disc - had ended by 1915, other than supplying people with old players.

The Pathé 14-inch 90 rpm discs and 20-inch 120 rpm discs were attempts to increase the volume of acoustic playback.* Very few were made. Playing time was 3.5 minute - that of a 10-inch 78.

Vertical/horizontal/diagonal modulation and nonstandard speeds** had to wait for the demand by the National Association of Broadcasters for a single standard record type in 1928. The NAB made the following standard, which most record companies converted to within two years.

- A single standard speed of 78.26 rpm (a compromise of Victor's 76 rpm and Columbia's 80 rpm)
- Lateral stylus modulation on an outside-start 3-mil groove with a 250 Hz rolloff point for bass
- The eccentric groove at the end of the record to trip record changers, auto-stops, and jukeboxes
- A 5/16-inch spindle hole size and record sizes of 10" and 12"

These became known as "standard records". Many early multispeed record players have STD, LP, and 45 on the speed controls.**

Edison used thicker records with vertical recording because the records were made of Bakelite, not shellac. They had a smaller stylus, turned at 80 rpm, and played longer than 78s.** They made a few of the standard records and then went out of business.

16-inch discs were used for only radio transcriptions and network broadcast distributions. From the 1930s to the 1960s, radio stations were required by the FCC to keep recordings of everything that went out over the air. These were not standardized because they were used only within stations and within networks.** They used 33 rpm for the aircheck recordings because playing time was more important than quality for the legally required recordings.

Long programs sent on 16-inch alternated inside and outside start so no sudden change in sound was noticeable when switching from one disc to the next.*

The start of competing EQ curves was in 1937 when Decca records started boosting the treble in 78 records to reduce surface noise (with a corresponding cut in playback).** Then when the slower speeds went into use, there were at least 20 different curves in use.** It took the RIAA to standardize records on a single curve.

The RIAA curve (RCA new orthophonic) was devised in 1953. All LPs made in the US were RIAA by 1957 (except some square dance companies making 78 rpm 250 Hz rolloff records to work with existing square dance machines**). Europe was standardized by 1962 (with a second standard for 78). The soviet union finally standardized on it in 1975.

And the Library of Congress standardized on 12-inch RIAA 78 rpm records for archival storage of sounds. These can survive and be playable even if we lose most digital technology.

Victor introduced long-playing 33.33 rpm coarse groove discs in 1932, but they lasted for very few plays. Columbia came up with the durable fine groove system we use in 1947.

Then RCA threw in their monkey wrench incompatibility with the 45 on 04/01/1948. I wish it had been just an April fool. They wanted to keep from paying royalties to Columbia.

Record makers had to switch the runout grooves and changer trip systems to a velocity trip because most arms and pickups back then could not stay in an eccentric groove** on an LP.

The stereo groove was the one standard that was universally adopted. Why? The Blumlein patents had already expired in the 1940s. Westrex, who developed the equipment made it available to all record companies immediately.

Then we had all of the quadraphonic record types of the 1970s. Again, each company devised its own system to avoid paying royalties.**

Intellectual property is the REASON we had all of those incompatibilities. People came up with different "standards" to get around paying royalties on patents owned by other companies. That's why I hate the concept of intellectual property except in actual literary works (and I favor limiting royalties to mechanical rates).

If there had been no patents and copyrights, we would have had the best systems and uniformity a lot earlier.

But still, ALL of these records (except the ones larger than 12-inch) will play on the same record changer I have been using since 1970.

I am having trouble with the 180 gram records they are making now. They are making the spindle holes 1/4-inch instead of the 5/16-inch standard. I have to use a ream to enlarge the holes to make them fit on the spindles of all of my turntables.**

* I have seen these.
** I own some of these.
 
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When ideas evolve while everyone is aimed at accomplishing a goal with best effort, that feels natural. Even in the case where an iteration ends up being short lived.

When someone gets desperate and resorts to spoofing behavior and such techniques to hide and get away with laziness or attack their competition, it has a different vibe. The 'copy protection gone wild' shenanigans and hiding decoder codecs in hardware in order to sell redundant equipment over again has that bad smell.
 
I am having trouble with the 180 gram records they are making now. They are making the spindle holes 1/4-inch instead of the 5/16-inch standard. I have to use a ream to enlarge the holes to make them fit on the spindles of all of my turntables
That's surprising? Up to .025 undersize I can see to make for accurate centering but .0625 ? I hope you can get the hand reaming done on center. :eek:
 
That's surprising? Up to .025 undersize I can see to make for accurate centering but .0625 ? I hope you can get the hand reaming done on center. :eek:

The reamer self-centers.

I think they think the standard is 1/4-inch.

1/4-inch is the standard size for a small-hole spindle that does not rotate with the turntable.
 
The reamer self-centers.

I think they think the standard is 1/4-inch.

1/4-inch is the standard size for a small-hole spindle that does not rotate with the turntable.
I guess those new 180g pressing weren't designed for record changers. :p
il_794xN.2169653657_9e9p.jpg
 
Cylinder vs. disc - had ended by 1915, other than supplying people with old players.

The Pathé 14-inch 90 rpm discs and 20-inch 120 rpm discs were attempts to increase the volume of acoustic playback.* Very few were made. Playing time was 3.5 minute - that of a 10-inch 78.

Vertical/horizontal/diagonal modulation and nonstandard speeds** had to wait for the demand by the National Association of Broadcasters for a single standard record type in 1928. The NAB made the following standard, which most record companies converted to within two years.

- A single standard speed of 78.26 rpm (a compromise of Victor's 76 rpm and Columbia's 80 rpm)
- Lateral stylus modulation on an outside-start 3-mil groove with a 250 Hz rolloff point for bass
- The eccentric groove at the end of the record to trip record changers, auto-stops, and jukeboxes
- A 5/16-inch spindle hole size and record sizes of 10" and 12"

These became known as "standard records". Many early multispeed record players have STD, LP, and 45 on the speed controls.**

Edison used thicker records with vertical recording because the records were made of Bakelite, not shellac. They had a smaller stylus, turned at 80 rpm, and played longer than 78s.** They made a few of the standard records and then went out of business.

16-inch discs were used for only radio transcriptions and network broadcast distributions. From the 1930s to the 1960s, radio stations were required by the FCC to keep recordings of everything that went out over the air. These were not standardized because they were used only within stations and within networks.** They used 33 rpm for the aircheck recordings because playing time was more important than quality for the legally required recordings.

Long programs sent on 16-inch alternated inside and outside start so no sudden change in sound was noticeable when switching from one disc to the next.*

The start of competing EQ curves was in 1937 when Decca records started boosting the treble in 78 records to reduce surface noise (with a corresponding cut in playback).** Then when the slower speeds went into use, there wer
But still, ALL of these records (except the ones larger than 12-inch) will play on the same record changer I have been using since 1970.

I am having trouble with the 180 gram records they are making now. They are making the spindle holes 1/4-inch instead of the 5/16-inch standard. I have to use a ream to enlarge the holes to make them fit on the spindles of all of my turntables.**

* I have seen these.
** I own some of these.

I cannot believe that newer albums/ lps have too small spindle holes n ur having to ream them yourself...ive not had a turntable in 30+ yrs as went to cassette n then cd when All of my cassettes were stolen
I still have about 40-50 old records that ive been carrying around in a box all these years cuz i just don't have the heart to letem go...sentimental or for whatever reason i hold onto them...but i just can't imagine having to drill/ream my holes to play an lp :eek:
 
I cannot believe that newer albums/ lps have too small spindle holes n ur having to ream them yourself...

I can't believe we don't hear more about this. Surely this must be affecting a lot of people buying vinyl but I haven't heard about it until now.
I still have a stack of vinyl from back in the day but no way of playing them (and that's fine with me, anything I would listen to I replaced on cd).
 
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