The Lies Are Still Out There

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Doug G.

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On another forum, a guy started a thread about finding some equipment that included some quad stuff.

Eventually, another guy had a question about which quad records needed a special cartridge and I answered him. Another guy chimed in with the standard lie about how the ultrasonic engravings in the groove are wiped out after just a few plays. I set him straight but jeez. It's amazing to me anybody ever believed the record companies would put such a product out there on the market but the unethical anti-CD-4 creeps started it in the seventies and it persists.

To be fair to the 2nd poster, he was basically relaying information from the internet.

Doug
 
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kfbkfb

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It turns out that the CD-4 carriers are damaged after just a few plays, but only in the form of a though in the bottom half of the groove, a true Shibata will contact some of the upper (undamaged) half of the groove and retrieve the carriers.

I only found out about this benefit in recent years, IMHO, the CD-4 proponents should have promoted this aspect of the Shibata stylus when CD-4 first appeared (and it could have been promoted as an ability to play badly damaged [high tracking force/worn stylus] stereo and mono records so that they sound like new).


Kirk Bayne
 

Doug G.

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I don't think your post is entirely correct or complete, Kirk. I believe you are saying the carriers are damaged by a regular stereo cartridge, right? A Shibata or other line contact will not damage them, materially.

It is true that a Shibata or line contact stylus can bridge over any damage in both cases which has been discussed over the years.

Doug
 

kfbkfb

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I recall reading this AES paper back in the 1970s, I didn't think it was such a big deal, just design a Shibata V2.0 stylus that plays at least some of the upper half of the groove (I didn't know about the "bridging" effect of the existing Shibata stylus).

It could have been a marketing problem - admitting that there was a carrier wear problem but also having a solution in the form of a Shibata stylus.


edit: yes, in my earlier post I should have posted that the CD-4 carriers are damaged by conical or elliptical stylus shapes, not Shibata (type) stylus shapes.


Kirk Bayne
 
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par4ken

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Early on JVC came out with their "Super Vinyl". I would think that it would take an awful lot of plays with a bad stylus to ever erase those grooves!

What really blows my mind though is how a (hard) diamond stylus can ever wear out playing (soft) vinyl! That being said I used to regularly replace my stylus back when vinyl was my main music source!
 

kfbkfb

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A Shibata stylus can make damaged records sound better?

A true Shibata stylus will contact (a little of) the undamaged top half of the record groove, the record will sound like a new record regardless of how badly damaged the bottom half of the record groove is.

(ultrasonic cleaning is probably the best way to clean records)


Kirk Bayne


Shibata.jpg
 

kap'n krunch

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A Shibata stylus can make damaged records sound better? How much better? What kind of damage?
My guess is that a fine line or Shibata , being V shaped , as opposed to elliptical U shape , has more of a contact surface and goes deeper...but I don't think that would make it sound 100% better
 

J. PUPSTER

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A true Shibata stylus will contact (a little of) the undamaged top half of the record groove, the record will sound like a new record regardless of how badly damaged the bottom half of the record groove is.

(ultrasonic cleaning is probably the best way to clean records)


Kirk Bayne


View attachment 79037
Is this the main reason there are "sandpaper" issues with CD-4 Kirk (wear between the top and bottom of grooves) or maybe just not totally clean?

I'll probably go ultrasonic if, and when I find a decent option I can afford.
Are you getting into CD-4 Mr. Baggins?
 

kfbkfb

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The first 2 images in the linked Pspatial Audio page show how a Shibata stylus helps in playing back badly damaged records (of any type - mono - stereo - matrix - CD-4) by contacting some of the upper half of the record groove.

More about the CD-4 sandpaper issue:

Also, correct alignment of the stylus is very important, there are various alignment protractors available. I use one I got free with a magazine (about 30 years ago).


Kirk Bayne
 

ar surround

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CD-4. God bless you folks that still mess around with it. I never had a problem with the carrier getting wiped out by the Shibata cartridge. Usually, my buddies Snap, Crackle and Pop moved in as unwelcome guests and were exceptionally annoying as they were with all LPs. But again, NEVER any problems with the HF carrier.
 

Doug G.

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The whole Shibata (or line contact) stylus making old, worn, records sound better or even like new is a variable thing. It all depends on how much of the good part of the groove is able to be tracked by the different profile stylus whether it is above, below, or bridging across the worn section of the groove.

A typical conical or elliptical stylus with a major radius of, say .7 mil., is going to track at a certain point within the groove height and a worn section will eventually be created at that height. A stylus with a larger major radius will either track at a different height or, with the larger radius, be able to bridge across the worn section, depending on how deep the worn section is. If the stylus can track a still good part of the groove, you will get, of course, much better sound (less wear distortion).

Heck, I have even made old 45s sound much better by tracking them with a 3 mil. stylus meant for 78s. The stylus is tracking way above where the original .7 or 1 mil stylus did, on unworn groove.

I have to disagree with higher modulation of the base band frequencies on a CD-4 record making them more susceptible to sandpaper or other distortions. It just doesn't seem to follow in my experience.

And, the claims by some (not here) that CD-4 records are only good for a few plays before problems start is pure baloney.

Ultrasonic cleaning is very compelling and I am considering it.

Doug
 

fredblue

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Is this the main reason there are "sandpaper" issues with CD-4 Kirk (wear between the top and bottom of grooves) or maybe just not totally clean?


Are you getting into CD-4 Mr. Baggins?

ah idk Pup, sometimes i think its all voodoo! 🙄😅🤦‍♀️🤣

more seriously, i guess it maybe setup-related, possibly pushing separation too far at the demodulating end (there really is a limit and not every mix even needs you to go for total wipeout, if its a vocals all round mix and you're experiencing sandpaper you could back off on the separation pots just a smidge and who would ever know!), sometimes you just need to add a little vtf on the turntable end of things.. inner groove distortion is a thing and some discs are just cut too loud and/or too near the label (hence the majority of Japanese CD-4 discs cut quieter with huge runout grooves that are more user-friendly than domestic CD-4 pressings if you're pushing the separation envelope, just in my experience) oh and then there are those few and far between notorious discs where you're on a hiding to nothing (exhibit A: "This One's For You") and if you do successfully demodulate it you're one of about 8 people in the last 46 years who have been able to do so! 🥳🏆 😂
 

J. PUPSTER

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ah idk Pup, sometimes i think its all voodoo! 🙄😅🤦‍♀️🤣

more seriously, i guess it maybe setup-related, possibly pushing separation too far at the demodulating end (there really is a limit and not every mix even needs you to go for total wipeout, if its a vocals all round mix and you're experiencing sandpaper you could back off on the separation pots just a smidge and who would ever know!), sometimes you just need to add a little vtf on the turntable end of things.. inner groove distortion is a thing and some discs are just cut too loud and/or too near the label (hence the majority of Japanese CD-4 discs cut quieter with huge runout grooves that are more user-friendly than domestic CD-4 pressings if you're pushing the separation envelope, just in my experience) oh and then there are those few and far between notorious discs where you're on a hiding to nothing (exhibit A: "This One's For You") and if you do successfully demodulate it you're one of about 8 people in the last 46 years who have been able to do so! 🥳🏆 😂
Thanks for the info; I'm sure we'll be chatting about this subject more, however don't think I've got to worry about being caught even dead owning a Merry Barry album... no offense meant, but nah nah NOPE! 😇
 

abby normal

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my experience with a shibata [at the stereo dealer's place] on a worn record is that it actually revealed MORE of the distortion in the previously mistracked groove, not less. counterintuitively - for that particular record [stereo edition of the phil spector xmas album], an ordinary plain vanilla AT biradial needle did the trick. i guess one needs all sorts of needle shapes for the universe of flat friends out there.
 

kfbkfb

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it actually revealed MORE of the distortion in the previously mistracked groove, not less.

Puzzling indeed, I don't see how that would happen, unless a badly worn Shibata stylus was the stylus in a phono cartridge with poor tracking ability, which would cause damage to the upper half of the record groove.


Kirk Bayne
 
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