1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
- Jan 20, 2019
- Yardley, PA
That's what bugs me about "Atmos" getting the marketing treatment. A soundbar cannot reproduce full surround program. It can only do movie soundtrack or sports broadcasts where the "surround" content is only reflections or lo-fi fx foley. It actually kind of shines for that for TV watching. I'd recommend it. Surround music is mutilated. Sorry folks but if you have a soundbar you're not only not listening to surround pretty much at all, you don't even have a good way to listen to mono or stereo in hi-fi. And you sure as hell aren't listening to 3D surround! I wouldn't recommend it for music at all. Not even stereo listening. Literally everything but the C channel is being ricochet off your walls and ceiling!These days I have to clarify that when I'm talking about surround sound systems I don't mean a soundbar, which confuses a lot of people. That should say enough about the majority of the population.
Situating the bass guitar -- and vocals and parts of drumkits -- largely in the center of the phantom image was a common mixing strategy in stereo long before surround existed. A phantom center consists of content that is shared by the left and right channels. DAW and audio editing software exploits this when the user wants to 'extract vocals' or 'extract center ' from stereo content. I've used that strategy to extract bass guitar parts from stereo recordings, to aid learning them. When they're mixed to a center (or LFE) channel in a 5.1 mix, it's even easier, of course.That approach to surround mixing is at least 20 years old, I have some 5.1 DVD-As mixed that way eg. Metallica Black Album on at least some tracks. The mixers seem to think on a cheap sound bar plus satellites the soundbar or center speaker will have better bass response so put the bass guitar in it, and put the song in left and right to get a stereo image on the satellites. I don't understand why they don't just let bass management sort these things out.
This reflects a common confusion of subwoofer out vs LFE channel.I am extremely happy with the output from my 3 x 12 inch powered subs for both music and movies. I have placed them so that the bass seems to be equal no matter where you sit in the room. One is in the front facing the seating and the other two are closer to the back wall facing the back wall. I have them plugged into the LFE output on the AVR and I have all the speakers set to small with a 50 hz crossover point within the AVR. I have the limiter on the subs also set to 100hz just to limit anything that is specifically sent to the LFE.
Exactly why 120hz LPF setting is ideal for all systems. Let the subwoofer get all the recorded information that is being sent to it. Too many people confuse the LPF as a roll off or crossover. That's why it doesn't matter what system/speakers/etc... you have.Not all systems are alike, you know this.
I believe what you are saying is how I have mine setup. Anyway it sounds fantastic so to me that's all that matters.This reflects a common confusion of subwoofer out vs LFE channel.
The 'subwoofer out' of your AVR is not equivalent to the LFE channel. Nor is the 'input' jack of a subwoofer. LFE goes through these jacks, but so does bass-managed bass from other channels.
The only time that sub out/in == LFE is when you aren't using any bass management. This would be if you have 5 'full range' speakers + sub.
In either situation, there are usually two low pass filter points for LFE content.
The first filter to LFE content is the 'LPF for LFE' control of the AVR (which does NOT filter bass managed content -- that is filtered by the 'crossover' setting of the AVR).
The second filter point is typically in the subwoofer itself, its own variable crossover control for lowpassing the signal (the 'limiter' you mention), that goes from ~30 Hz to ~200Hz, or to 'none' (which removes the filter). This of course affects any signal that is coming in to the subwoofer, be it LFE alone , or bass-managed bass + LFE, or bass managed content alone (when the source has no LFE).
Exactly why 120hz LPF setting is ideal for all systems. Let the subwoofer get all the recorded information that is being sent to it. Too many people confuse the LPF as a roll off or crossover. That's why it doesn't matter what system/speakers/etc... you have.
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I'm curious as to what content has been authored in which the LFE has information beyond 120hz.Except, we know that there is X.1 material authored with content far beyond 120 Hz in its LFE. Audyssey here is citing film-to-DVD industry standard, specifically for Dolby and DTS audio tracks. This standard is not being adopted consistently in the music-only, DVDA/SACD/BluRay releases we buy.
And it's telling that LPF for LFE settings have options that look like this, copied from a typical Denon AVR manual:
80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz (Default) / 150Hz / 200Hz / 250Hz
Thank you for this document written by legendary 5.1 mixers I will keep this safely!
Did you not see the first post in this very thread?I'm curious as to what content has been authored in which the LFE has information beyond 120hz.
So then to your point and mine --Did you not see the first post in this very thread?
Pick a mix from that list that has a YES in its last column. (Consider picking one released after 2004 -- the year your pdf dates from). Analyze/listen to the LFE in isolation, though a full range speaker/headphone. Tell us what you find.
Is this true?Content with full frequencies in the .1 will be bass managed.
Problem solved 100%.
I think you may have answered your own question The LPF would filter out the frequencies above 120hz in the .1 content channel, so it wouldn’t matter if bass management is only being applied to the mains. Bass management for the mains, assuming set at 80hz would roll off 80 and below to the sub and 81 or higher to the mains. And to your point as well the sub would not reproduce the higher frequencies.Is this true?
I always thought that Bass Management applies only to the main channels. But NOT to the .1 LFE channel.
You will have a LPF for LFE channel, usually recommnded to 120Hz, that limits the high frequency for the LFE channel going to the Subwoofer speaker.
If a LFE (.1) channel contains frequency above 120 Hz it will be lost, first because of the eventual setting of LPF for LFE in the AVR, and second because the Subwoofer speaker will not reproduce the high frequencies.
Special surround mixes 6.0 (like Chesky's system) that have 6 full band channels is another thing, requirig a full band speaker for the sixth channel.