TIDAL unveils Sony 360 Reality Audio

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sjcorne

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i imagine the obvious thing straightaway with Rocks would be if it does all the round the room panning on "Back In The Saddle"?
Yep, that or the guitar solo blasting from the rear right speaker in “Last Child”. Or the guitar bouncing from speaker-to-speaker at the beginning of “Rats In The Cellar”. There’s demo-worthy moments in basically every track.
 

beerking

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Just getting my old noggin around this turn of events.
This looks like a very interesting development, to say the least.

So these 360 releases can be converted into a listenable and acceptable surround mix, playable through certain, supported AVR systems?

Is my understanding correct?
 

J. PUPSTER

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Just contemplating all those old, digitally unreleased, Sony Quad titles that they hold the reins to - and yes I'm fine with just straight Quad if done well - 😋
* To really be competitive with Atmos, I believe they need to incorporate this into some of their AVRs and make it deliverable to a home speaker system (If I'm reading all this correctly it's just for little faux surround gadgets and headphones currently - Yes / No? (color me still confused over this.)

Here's some FAQs

FAQ
Q :Can you create in 360 Reality Audio for existing or past recordings?
360 Reality Audio masters can be created from multitrack audio content data. It can also be created from stem. It can not be created from a stereo master.
Q :What kind of speaker configuration is suitable for listening to 360 Reality Audio through speakers?
13ch speaker system is recommended to fully experience the 360 Reality Audio effect.

Q :How can I create content if I don’t have a 13ch speaker system?
The 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite provides a real-time headphone rendering feature to emulate 13ch speaker system in headphones.
Q :How is it possible to hear 360 Reality Audio in headphones?
360 Reality Audio Creative Suite is equipped with a virtualizer for reproduction with headphones. When the sound reaches the eardrum, it is affected by the echo of the room and the shape of the ear, causing a change in the sound in the space. When playing back with headphones, you can embody the feeling of being there by digitally reproducing the same changes in the sound played through the headphones.
Q :Which Headphones work with 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite?
It works with any headphones that you usually use with your digital audio workstations(DAWs).
Q :What is the 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite and what does it do?
The 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite is primarily an object based mixer which can mix and pan audio objects in a 3D spherical space.
Q :How can I find 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite?
For more details on 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite click here.
Q :How can I create 360 Reality Audio Music Format to deliver?
For up-to-date information regarding 360 Reality Audio Music Format creation and technical guidelines, please contact [email protected].
Q :Which music streaming services support 360 Reality Audio?
360 Reality Audio can be experienced on premium subscription plans of compatible music streaming services.
To find out more, click here under “Compatible music streaming services”.
Q :Which headphones and speakers are compatible to playback 360 Reality Audio?
360 Reality Audio can be played back on any headphones and earbuds. With select Sony headphones, you can experience a custom immersive musical field that is optimized for each individual user. Find out more here under “Select Sony headphones for upgrading your experience”. For compatible speakers, click here.
Q :What source audio is needed for 360 Reality Audio content creation?
360 Reality Audio masters can be created from multi-track data or stem file used in major digital audio workstations (DAWs). All audio must be at the 48kHz sample rate.
Q :Are there any special considerations when creating stems for 360 Reality Audio from existing mix session data?
Yes. There are a few considerations: It may be easier to work with the level of each stem set to match the original mix when combined in a 360 Reality Audio environment. Also, since the 360 Reality Audio headroom has a different audibility than the stereo environment, it may be advisable to make some preparations to make it easier to mix. For example, rather than using stereo lead vocal stem data exported with a reverb effect, you can prepare monaural lead vocal data without reverb and audio data with only reverb elements separately. This gives you more flexibility to mix in 360 Reality Audio.
Q :What kind of 360 Reality Audio master does the 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite produce?
The 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite generates multiple sets of .WAV files with instructional meta data that defines audio positioning and automation. These sets can be encoded into MPEG-H 3D Audio based 360 Reality Audio Music Format deliverables for streaming services.
 

MagnumX

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Or another way to look at it is simply that you either
- know / care about quad,
- or you don't know / don't care.
Yeah, because I don't need or want yet another audio format from a greedy corporation that has two audio carrying disc formats already (SACD and Blu-Ray), that obviously means I don't "care" about quad. :rolleyes:

Did the world really need yet another format when we already have Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D for immersive overhead sound, let alone TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, PCM 5.1 and even lowly Dolby Digital in the 5.1 department. It seems to me this is just another leveraging of power with the PS5 by a company that's too large already. Monopoly power baby! (n)

I guess if you're illegally going to rip from Tidal and convert with a decoder you're not supposed to have, I guess you would be excited by the prospect of more free goodies! :D

Just getting my old noggin around this turn of events.
This looks like a very interesting development, to say the least.

So these 360 releases can be converted into a listenable and acceptable surround mix, playable through certain, supported AVR systems?

Is my understanding correct?
Apparently, they can *IF* you "magically find" the developer decoder and use ripping tools to download songs off Tidal. It's odd because I didn't realize this was now the Pirate Bay's new discussion board. 🏴‍☠️

Just contemplating all those old, digitally unreleased, Sony Quad titles that they hold the reins to - and yes I'm fine with just straight Quad if done well - 😋
* To really be competitive with Atmos, I believe they need to incorporate this into some of their AVRs and make it deliverable to a home speaker system (If I'm reading all this correctly it's just for little faux surround gadgets and headphones currently - Yes / No? (color me still confused over this.)

Here's some FAQs

FAQ
Q :
Can you create in 360 Reality Audio for existing or past recordings?
360 Reality Audio masters can be created from multitrack audio content data. It can also be created from stem. It can not be created from a stereo master.
Q :What kind of speaker configuration is suitable for listening to 360 Reality Audio through speakers?
13ch speaker system is recommended to fully experience the 360 Reality Audio effect.

Q :How can I create content if I don’t have a 13ch speaker system?
The 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite provides a real-time headphone rendering feature to emulate 13ch speaker system in headphones.
Q :How is it possible to hear 360 Reality Audio in headphones?
360 Reality Audio Creative Suite is equipped with a virtualizer for reproduction with headphones. When the sound reaches the eardrum, it is affected by the echo of the room and the shape of the ear, causing a change in the sound in the space. When playing back with headphones, you can embody the feeling of being there by digitally reproducing the same changes in the sound played through the headphones.
Q :Which Headphones work with 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite?
It works with any headphones that you usually use with your digital audio workstations(DAWs).
Q :What is the 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite and what does it do?
The 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite is primarily an object based mixer which can mix and pan audio objects in a 3D spherical space.
Q :How can I find 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite?
For more details on 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite click here.
Q :How can I create 360 Reality Audio Music Format to deliver?
For up-to-date information regarding 360 Reality Audio Music Format creation and technical guidelines, please contact [email protected].
Q :Which music streaming services support 360 Reality Audio?
360 Reality Audio can be experienced on premium subscription plans of compatible music streaming services.
To find out more, click here under “Compatible music streaming services”.
Q :Which headphones and speakers are compatible to playback 360 Reality Audio?
360 Reality Audio can be played back on any headphones and earbuds. With select Sony headphones, you can experience a custom immersive musical field that is optimized for each individual user. Find out more here under “Select Sony headphones for upgrading your experience”. For compatible speakers, click here.
Q :What source audio is needed for 360 Reality Audio content creation?
360 Reality Audio masters can be created from multi-track data or stem file used in major digital audio workstations (DAWs). All audio must be at the 48kHz sample rate.
Q :Are there any special considerations when creating stems for 360 Reality Audio from existing mix session data?
Yes. There are a few considerations: It may be easier to work with the level of each stem set to match the original mix when combined in a 360 Reality Audio environment. Also, since the 360 Reality Audio headroom has a different audibility than the stereo environment, it may be advisable to make some preparations to make it easier to mix. For example, rather than using stereo lead vocal stem data exported with a reverb effect, you can prepare monaural lead vocal data without reverb and audio data with only reverb elements separately. This gives you more flexibility to mix in 360 Reality Audio.
Q :What kind of 360 Reality Audio master does the 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite produce?
The 360 Reality Audio Creative Suite generates multiple sets of .WAV files with instructional meta data that defines audio positioning and automation. These sets can be encoded into MPEG-H 3D Audio based 360 Reality Audio Music Format deliverables for streaming services.
Ooh! Lower speakers! There's just TWO problems with that. It doesn't match ANY existing surround format out there in terms of speaker locations (Choose between doing 9.1.4 with front wides and having lower speakers in the front with no rear speakers). Secondly, if you have more than one row of seats, the lower speakers would likely be blocked by the seats in front of you. But hey, that's OK Sony! Go for it anyway!

What's the point in doing floor speakers if you don't use them all the way around? You won't be able to pan across the floor into the room. So much for that mouse scurrying sound under foot. And you thought your European D&M AVR was all you needed. Oops.
 

KMO

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To some extent I think they're doing something that suits us very well, less so 2-channel audiophiles. (Although I think that's an oxymoron - how can you call yourself an audiophile and not have a multi-channel system?)

Sony are making the Atmos-like multichannel the distribution format and relying on downmixing for non-multichannel people (and indeed multichannel people with not enough speakers).

And that would include a binaural downmix for the headphone people - that's kind of the hook to get people into the multichannel thing. To hear something of the multichannel. Along with this 360-degree soundbar/blob thing.

And I think it's plausible. "5.1" surround headphones for films or games - doing the binaural thing - are not a totally niche item, so why shouldn't they get music in on it. And why not make your silly little audio-box be a 3D soundbar? It's a start. Got to get total "why multichannel music?" people in somehow.

Only problem is that they doing it via Yet Another Format. I'm not sure of the technical reasons. I don't see why you couldn't do all this based around one of the already-deployed ones. Although at least it is an open one.

One thing I suspect is maybe there's something to do with games - latency of live encoding. I see loads of people saying the Atmos output latency on the Xbox is so high to be unusable. Maybe this format avoids that. They would certainly have been thinking about that a lot for PSVR - that needs hyper-low visual latency, (You can't have a system where you turn your head to the left and only after a delay does what you see change to match the movement. It has to respond immediately). The audio would have to be keeping up with that to stay in sync, which it is, so whatever they're doing for the 3d transformation is super fast.
 

bracelis

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Apparently, they can *IF* you "magically find" the developer decoder and use ripping tools to download songs off Tidal. It's odd because I didn't realize this was now the Pirate Bay's new discussion board. 🏴‍☠️
I clearly stated I'm not going to discuss how to get this decoder, for precisely that reason, because this is not 'Pirate Bay'.
I'm aware that piracy is very common -- but this is NOT that thread.

I mentioned that the purpose of my post is to share information about this format, which clearly many still have questions/doubts.
And I/we tried to show or say that:
(1) The contents of these files are not crap/fake/simulated immersive audio.
(2) Many of us are still longing for some old/favorite albums that were never released on digital surround.
And we want to know if some of these 360 albums are those that we have been longing for.
(3) That MPEG-H 3D is a more modern/efficient format with more features ( how old is Dolby Digital+ ?).
Note that Dolby also has their own 'next generation' coded: AC4, so even Dolby will probably switch over from DolbyDigital+/Atmos to this new format.
We know that there will always be competition.
(4) There may be some developments (like the fact that some receivers can be updated via firmware) to support this format, that this encoder/decoder tool has been made available to help those who are working to produce more content, and that there is work going on with Android to support this.

So I'm trying to show what could be the potential, that there may be hope and something to get excited about, instead of being so negative.

It's not like Sony will suddenly abandon this and switch everything to Atmos overnight.
But maybe, Sony will realize that they will need to make this available to us, if they don't want this to be another Betamax.

PS:
We know that not everyone wants streaming -- but this topic is not about streaming vs download/purchase, lossy vs lossless.
We just want to be able to listen to these songs.
 

Old Quad Guy

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This is only like recording FM music at home for one’s personal enjoyment at home. Or just listening to the FM, except in surround.

Let’s hope we some SACD releases or something soon. There’s a lot of hungry people for something to buy. I suggest that Sony or someone put something out now. With this in mind, let’s keep it friendly because this is a fascinating subject to learn about. Thanks.
 

beerking

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I clearly stated I'm not going to discuss how to get this decoder, for precisely that reason, because this is not 'Pirate Bay'.
I'm aware that piracy is very common -- but this is NOT that thread.

I mentioned that the purpose of my post is to share information about this format, which clearly many still have questions/doubts.
And I/we tried to show or say that:
(1) The contents of these files are not crap/fake/simulated immersive audio.
(2) Many of us are still longing for some old/favorite albums that were never released on digital surround.
And we want to know if some of these 360 albums are those that we have been longing for.
(3) That MPEG-H 3D is a more modern/efficient format with more features ( how old is Dolby Digital+ ?).
Note that Dolby also has their own 'next generation' coded: AC4, so even Dolby will probably switch over from DolbyDigital+/Atmos to this new format.
We know that there will always be competition.
(4) There may be some developments (like the fact that some receivers can be updated via firmware) to support this format, that this encoder/decoder tool has been made available to help those who are working to produce more content, and that there is work going on with Android to support this.

So I'm trying to show what could be the potential, that there may be hope and something to get excited about, instead of being so negative.

It's not like Sony will suddenly abandon this and switch everything to Atmos overnight.
But maybe, Sony will realize that they will need to make this available to us, if they don't want this to be another Betamax.

PS:
We know that not everyone wants streaming -- but this topic is not about streaming vs download/purchase, lossy vs lossless.
We just want to be able to listen to these songs.
Well said.
This is, first and foremost, a friendly site, with like minded folk who wish to share their love of music 🎶 in surround...and er...other formats :D .
Long may it stay that way.
 

bracelis

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i imagine the obvious thing straightaway with Rocks would be if it does all the round the room panning on "Back In The Saddle"?
You mean the horse steps that go around clockwise, as highlighted below ? This is the part just before the vocals come in.
Ignore the last two channels, since they're just an upmix of the front channels (similar to the one in Get Your Wings).
BackInTheSaddle.jpg


An easy giveaway that it's the quad version and not the new 5.1 would be in "Walk This Way"--the quad version has the guitar solos coming from one of the back corners, whereas they're upfront on the new mix. Can you check Rocks as well?
The 360 version looks the same as the 2003 SACD with a Center channel, but the surrounds in the 360 version are distributed between the Rear and Side surrounds, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the height channels, so it's a 7.1 (although the LFE channel is empty).

I just want to mention that I'm running the decoder without any documentation/instructions, so I do not know if I could be doing anything wrong.

WalkThisWay.jpg
 

CINERAMAX

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Yeah, because I don't need or want yet another audio format from a greedy corporation that has two audio carrying disc formats already (SACD and Blu-Ray), that obviously means I don't "care" about quad. :rolleyes:

Did the world really need yet another format when we already have Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D for immersive overhead sound, let alone TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, PCM 5.1 and even lowly Dolby Digital in the 5.1 department. It seems to me this is just another leveraging of power with the PS5 by a company that's too large already. Monopoly power baby! (n)

I guess if you're illegally going to rip from Tidal and convert with a decoder you're not supposed to have, I guess you would be excited by the prospect of more free goodies! :D



Apparently, they can *IF* you "magically find" the developer decoder and use ripping tools to download songs off Tidal. It's odd because I didn't realize this was now the Pirate Bay's new discussion board. 🏴‍☠️



Ooh! Lower speakers! There's just TWO problems with that. It doesn't match ANY existing surround format out there in terms of speaker locations (Choose between doing 9.1.4 with front wides and having lower speakers in the front with no rear speakers). Secondly, if you have more than one row of seats, the lower speakers would likely be blocked by the seats in front of you. But hey, that's OK Sony! Go for it anyway!

What's the point in doing floor speakers if you don't use them all the way around? You won't be able to pan across the floor into the room. So much for that mouse scurrying sound under foot. And you thought your European D&M AVR was all you needed. Oops.
Lower speakers sink the soundstage into the front floor only, psychoacoustically limited to just the front .
BEVANS 6.jpg

damaske.png
 

bracelis

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FAQ
Q :What kind of speaker configuration is suitable for listening to 360 Reality Audio through speakers?
13ch speaker system is recommended to fully experience the 360 Reality Audio effect.
We can disregard this part in the FAQ about the speaker layout.
The 360 songs from Tidal that I've checked so far do not use this layout or bottom/lower speakers.
They follow the common 'floor'/LFE/height (example 7.1.4) layout used in the Atmos mixes, except the LFE is usually empty.
Or the height channels can be empty.
Or the center can be empty (example the original quads)

So there should not be any concern about compatibility.
 

bracelis

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The 360 decoder allows you to render the output WAV file using any of the speaker layouts below.
So the decoder works the same way as an Atmos AVR/processor, which renders the Atmos signal based on your speaker configuration, except the AVR does it on the fly as you play the song.

If you don't specify a layout, it will generate a WAV with the same layout as the source ( usually 7.1.4) by default.

Since I have a quad + 2 height channels configuration on my desktop, I can create a WAV file with a 5.1.2 layout (which is the closest one to my configuration), and the center channel will be sent to the L/R speakers when I play the file. Most of the songs have an empty LFE channel.

Description​
Alternative Naming​
Number of Loudspeakers​
MPEG-H 3D-Audio CICP index​
1.0​
Mono​
1​
1​
2.0​
Stereo​
2​
2​
3.0​
Left-Center-Right​
3​
3​
4.0​
Quad​
4​
10​
5.1​
3/2 Surround / ITU-R Rec. BS.775 [4]​
6​
6​
5.1.2​
5.1+2H​
8​
14​
5.1.4​
Auro 9.1, Dolby Atmos Home​
10​
16​
7.1.4​
Auro 11.1, Dolby Atmos Home​
12​
19​
 
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I clearly stated I'm not going to discuss how to get this decoder, for precisely that reason, because this is not 'Pirate Bay'.
I'm aware that piracy is very common -- but this is NOT that thread.

I mentioned that the purpose of my post is to share information about this format, which clearly many still have questions/doubts.
And I/we tried to show or say that:
(1) The contents of these files are not crap/fake/simulated immersive audio.
(2) Many of us are still longing for some old/favorite albums that were never released on digital surround.
And we want to know if some of these 360 albums are those that we have been longing for.
(3) That MPEG-H 3D is a more modern/efficient format with more features ( how old is Dolby Digital+ ?).
Note that Dolby also has their own 'next generation' coded: AC4, so even Dolby will probably switch over from DolbyDigital+/Atmos to this new format.
We know that there will always be competition.
(4) There may be some developments (like the fact that some receivers can be updated via firmware) to support this format, that this encoder/decoder tool has been made available to help those who are working to produce more content, and that there is work going on with Android to support this.

So I'm trying to show what could be the potential, that there may be hope and something to get excited about, instead of being so negative.

It's not like Sony will suddenly abandon this and switch everything to Atmos overnight.
But maybe, Sony will realize that they will need to make this available to us, if they don't want this to be another Betamax.

PS:
We know that not everyone wants streaming -- but this topic is not about streaming vs download/purchase, lossy vs lossless.
We just want to be able to listen to these songs.
Thank you for this thoughtful post and everything you shared regarding 360.
To know that there is an econder / decoder "somewhere out there" is by itself great news --- even if that somewhere is apparently no place I know of.
Eventually it might find its way to port to FB2K or any other playback software, the same way we enjoy playback of our SACD or BR in ways that are not supposed to happen.
At the end of the day it is all about the music, for which most of us here pay a lot of money for.
I am not holding high hopes about Sony ever releasing an encoder / decoder based on their tight hold of the ATRAC format in the distant past, and most recently the stupid and ultimately defeated SACD locks.
But as you said I am concerned that Sony Music is still sitting on a lot of potential multichannel releases that might be locked (again) to a specific format that (again) will require new equipment for playback.
Kansas to name one of them, I learned that most if not all the 70's multitracks do exist and are in good hands.
Sony has a way to "do the Betamax" over and over again, it was born as a nerd engineer company and will die with a tight grip on its slide rule.
 
Last edited:

MagnumX

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Lower speakers sink the soundstage into the front floor only, psychoacoustically limited to just the front .
View attachment 66606
View attachment 66607
Are you trying to say we can't tell where sounds are coming from behind us on the floor or below us? Honestly, that's nonsense. Put your hand behind you and snap your fingers and then move it lower and lower (better yet get someone else to do it behind you). If you can't tell where the sound is coming from, I'd be shocked.
 

CINERAMAX

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Your fingers are one thing reproduced audio is another, don't shoot the messenger all 3D audio formats that include floor channels (NHK, FRAUNHOFER SONY, DTS-X neural-x PRO) limit them to L, C, R FLOOR. I merely pointed you to research that shows there is a -9 degree area sunk below the floor where a soundstage can image well. Luciano and Lisa NY-NY will image well in these setups quite a bit of dts music content does, upmixed by neural x.
 
Last edited:

bracelis

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I checked one track from each of these 5 Isley Brothers albums.

These 3 are discrete:
(1) 3+3: "That Lady, Pts. 1 & 2" (the same as the SACD, except the center/LFE are completely silent on the 360 version)
(2) Go for Your Guns: "The Pride Pts 1&2"
(3) Harvest For The World: "Who Loves you better"

These two are not discrete, the rears have a processed/reverb sound.
(4) The Heat Is On: "The Heat is On"
(5) Live It Up: "Live It Up, Pts. 1 & 2"
 

sjcorne

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These two are not discrete, the rears have a processed/reverb sound.
(4) The Heat Is On: "The Heat is On"
(5) Live It Up: "Live It Up, Pts. 1 & 2"
Interesting! The Heat Is On was never released in quad (though it was rumored to have been mixed), but the quad LP of Live It Up was a genuine remix with instruments isolated in the rears. I remember vocals popping up in the rears during "Brown-Eyed Girl" and a guitar in one of the back corners towards the end of "Ain't I Been Good To You".
 

J. PUPSTER

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Interesting! The Heat Is On was never released in quad (though it was rumored to have been mixed), but the quad LP of Live It Up was a genuine remix with instruments isolated in the rears. I remember vocals popping up in the rears during "Brown-Eyed Girl" and a guitar in one of the back corners towards the end of "Ain't I Been Good To You".
What about this one?
 

J. PUPSTER

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Yes, there are catalog #'s out there for SQ LP & Q8 versions--but no has come forward with even a picture of either for over 45 years now.
So would the Sony 360 version be some possible evidence of it actually existing now; or still a big question mark since it has "Reverb" type rears?
 
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