Where would you position just two height speakers?

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Blackwood

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Joined
Oct 6, 2022
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I was going to wait for Denon’s new X4800H receiver, but the release date has apparently slipped a bit and I’d like a new receiver for Christmas.

After talking with someone at B&H, I decided that I would probably be just as happy with the X4700H, plus it’s $1,000 cheaper... and it arrives Thursday as opposed to some unknown point in the future. (A big selling point for the X4800H is better 8K video and I don’t use my system for top-end video. Nor do I intend to have 4 sub-woofers.)

I’ll have two height speakers, at least to start. My question, being new to any sort of height-capable receiver, is the best positioning with two. My first thought was that they should go behind me. But is there any value in them going in the middle of the room off to the sides up high, or the front up high? Does it even matter?

I’m totally clueless on how to maximize my setup with just two heights.
 
I was going to wait for Denon’s new X4800H receiver, but the release date has apparently slipped a bit and I’d like a new receiver for Christmas.

After talking with someone at B&H, I decided that I would probably be just as happy with the X4700H, plus it’s $1,000 cheaper... and it arrives Thursday as opposed to some unknown point in the future. (A big selling point for the X4800H is better 8K video and I don’t use my system for top-end video. Nor do I intend to have 4 sub-woofers.)

I’ll have two height speakers, at least to start. My question, being new to any sort of height-capable receiver, is the best positioning with two. My first thought was that they should go behind me. But is there any value in them going in the middle of the room off to the sides up high, or the front up high? Does it even matter?

I’m totally clueless on how to maximize my setup with just two heights.
As I'm days away from realizing a similar set up, Blackwood, my installer has elected to place the overhead speakers in alignment with my 'sweet spot.'

Putting them behind would compete with the rears. They will be angled down ...NOT overhead .... on the side walls on a similar equidistant plane with my front and rear speakers.

I'm NOT a fan of in ceiling overhead speakers as once they're situated there's absolutely NO flexibility. I cannot do TRUE Atmos because of height restrictions so I was assured this was the optimum approach. And I'm fine with a 7.1 system as a ton of my UHD4K discs also sport 7.1 soundtracks [as well as ATMOS] so there'll be no fold down.

Just ensure your height speakers share similar characteristics with your front and rear speakers to assure a somewhat seamless soundstage front> height> rear.

Since I don't know the exact layout of your room you may choose an alternate approach and perhaps other posters can share their experiences with you.

In any case I wish you the best of luck!
 
My first thought was that they should go behind me. But is there any value in them going in the middle of the room off to the sides up high, or the front up high? Does it even matter?
Dolby wants you to put them up high between the front & rear speakers (or directly above the sweet spot), and the reason for that is because your receiver will treat them as "Top Middle" channels - summing all the height information into a single stereo pair. If you put them upfront, information meant solely for the rear heights will inadvertently be moved in front of you and vice versa if you put them in the back.

I've noticed it's not uncommon for mixers to suspend objects between the floor and height speakers - one such example could be in Steven Wilson's Atmos mix of "Friend Of The Devil" from The Grateful Dead's American Beauty, where the mandolin is in rear left & top rear left and piano in rear right & top rear right. If you were running 5.1.2 with the two heights in front, it might sound kinda weird having those instruments divided between the rears and top fronts.

I know not everyone has the space (or budget) to accommodate four height speakers, but it does make a notable difference in how some Atmos mixes translate (IMO).


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Much appreciation to all of you.

Not unlike many rooms, mine has some unique things with different heights in the ceiling and it’s also my home office so it’s not like a traditional TV theater setup where things can line up nicely.

My height speakers won’t go in the ceiling. They’re Klipsch R-41SAs and will hang on the wall. I’m still working out the best way to mount them so they can be at an angle if necessary. I bought some SupTek speaker wall mounts a while back, but still considering options.

At some point, I’ll upgrade to four, but I’ve already tested the graciousness of my wife to spend money on myself this Christmas, so I'll upgrade later. And at least the new receiver is already designed for two other height speakers as long as I get a pre-amp for them. (And I have yet to raise the topic of taking the existing Denon receiver and getting a surround setup for the living room. I’ll save that discussion for 2023.)

American Beauty is an interesting example. When I first heard Wilson’s version of Friend of the Devil, the mandolin in the back did stand out (in a good way), so what you’re saying about how the heights would interpret that and position things in only two heights makes sense to me.

It didn’t occur to me until writing this that I guess I have some freedom, with long enough wires, to move things around a bit before mounting them firmly in one place.

@4-earredwonder - Best of luck on your setup, too! I hope all the work goes smooth with the installer and that you’re thrilled with the results.

@GaryG - Just saw your post as I finishing this. Thanks... downloaded the PDF and will go through it.
 

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A big selling point for the X4800H is better 8K video and I don’t use my system for top-end video. Nor do I intend to have 4 sub-woofers
I think the big selling point of the 800 series was the option to upgrade to Dirac Live sometime next year.

To answer your main question though, if you are not ceiling mounting, I've found the best place is roughly the same distance from your listening position forward that you would put them when ceiling mounting (based on the Dolby diagram), but on the side walls. If you can angle them a bit towards your listening position, even better.
 
I think the big selling point of the 800 series was the option to upgrade to Dirac Live sometime next year.

To answer your main question though, if you are not ceiling mounting, I've found the best place is roughly the same distance from your listening position forward that you would put them when ceiling mounting (based on the Dolby diagram), but on the side walls. If you can angle them a bit towards your listening position, even better.
Thanks for the placement advice.

I spent some time yesterday looking up what Dirac Live was all about as I had seen that being one of the selling points. I think the 4800 is expected to get that upgrade in the Spring if what I read was current.

If I had a room that was really designed for a hardcore audio/video experience, I think I might find value with Dirac. But in this room I’m in, I’m settling (for better or worse) with the Audyssey setup that Denon offers.

I really had my heart set on “new” with the 4800, but realistically I’m probably not going to notice a huge difference (for my plans) between that and the 4700. Plus, I save $1,000 and I have it before Christmas. (Due to arrive Thursday or Friday, but I have to wrap it for Christmas.)

But I’ve fallen down the rabbit-hole at this point. I can see the long road ahead as an on-going series of tweaks and/or upgrades.
 
The new 800 series Denon’s get MPEG-H 3D (Sony Reality Audio 360) decoders.

I’d suggest spending the $1000 you’re saving on an extra pair of height speakers for much improved immersion. (Quad heights vs Stereo heights gives better object location).
 
A big selling point for the X4800H is better 8K video
Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I'm curious if anyone knows if it's truly safe to buy 8k equipment right now.

I have an older Marantz that offers "4k passthrough" but was built before the hate groups had settled on the final details, so in practice it doesn't actually work. If I run my BDP-203 through it with a 4k disc, I get a message on the screen about...something or other...and everything is downrezzed to 2k.

I just wonder if we're in that same in-between space right now where the technical specs for 8k have been hammered out but the inevitably-broken copy protection has not, making current 8k receivers maybe less than fully useful by the day actual 8k content becomes readily available.
 
The new 800 series Denon’s get MPEG-H 3D (Sony Reality Audio 360) decoders.

I’d suggest spending the $1000 you’re saving on an extra pair of height speakers for much improved immersion. (Quad heights vs Stereo heights gives better object location).
Until this very moment, I hadn’t heard of Quad Heights / Stereo Heights. Much more reading to do to get up-to-speed with this stuff.

I did the most cursory glance at Sony Reality Audio 360 yesterday, too, to make sure I wasn’t giving up on something I might regret.

I thought that was just for headphones or Sony wireless speakers. But is there a wider application that I would have been able to get just from the speakers connected to the receiver? I could have totally missed an option with that.
 
I thought that was just for headphones or Sony wireless speakers. But is there a wider application that I would have been able to get just from the speakers connected to the receiver? I could have totally missed an option with that.
It's a real immersive format, but the ability to play it back on a home theater system hasn't been properly rolled out yet. There are hundreds of albums streaming in 360RA on Tidal, many of them being old '70s quad mixes that haven't been reissued on SACD or Blu-Ray.
 
Until this very moment, I hadn’t heard of Quad Heights / Stereo Heights. Much more reading to do to get up-to-speed with this stuff.

That’s my analogy. 4 heights gives a similar effect to quad speakers versus 2 heights (stereo). 4 heights allows a true 360 degree placement of objects which 2 heights only cannot.
 
That’s my analogy. 4 heights gives a similar effect to quad speakers versus 2 heights (stereo). 4 heights allows a true 360 degree placement of objects which 2 heights only cannot.
Ah... got it! That makes sense.

I had a brief moment in this research process where I considered buying something much more expensive that would handle four heights without the need for a separate pre-amp.

But then I thought it could be somewhat of a wash in the end... spend more now to eliminate the need of an extra component, or buy something less expensive now and get the extra component later.

Could be wrong but I figured that at the eventual end of it all I’d spend about the same, it was just a matter of when I was spending the money.

“Later” won out due to other Christmas purchases for the family.
 
Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I'm curious if anyone knows if it's truly safe to buy 8k equipment right now.

I have an older Marantz that offers "4k passthrough" but was built before the hate groups had settled on the final details, so in practice it doesn't actually work. If I run my BDP-203 through it with a 4k disc, I get a message on the screen about...something or other...and everything is downrezzed to 2k.

I just wonder if we're in that same in-between space right now where the technical specs for 8k have been hammered out but the inevitably-broken copy protection has not, making current 8k receivers maybe less than fully useful by the day actual 8k content becomes readily available.
My understanding is in the USA there are no broadcasts in 8K. I believe in Japan they are? I am not sure about other country's.

Safe to buy?, sure why not. My 4K is two years old and is great every day. I went to movie theater first time since 2020Covid and my 4K home TV is better than the big screen.

If I was looking now and a top of the line 8K was more or less equal to a top of the line 4K, I likely would buy the 8K, but if it was a lot more expensive I would not.
 
Dolby wants you to put them up high between the front & rear speakers (or directly above the sweet spot), and the reason for that is because your receiver will treat them as "Top Middle" channels - summing all the height information into a single stereo pair. If you put them upfront, information meant solely for the rear heights will inadvertently be moved in front of you and vice versa if you put them in the back.

I've noticed it's not uncommon for mixers to suspend objects between the floor and height speakers - one such example could be in Steven Wilson's Atmos mix of "Friend Of The Devil" from The Grateful Dead's American Beauty, where the mandolin is in rear left & top rear left and piano in rear right & top rear right. If you were running 5.1.2 with the two heights in front, it might sound kinda weird having those instruments divided between the rears and top fronts.

I know not everyone has the space (or budget) to accommodate four height speakers, but it does make a notable difference in how some Atmos mixes translate (IMO).


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i'm another advocate for 4 Heights rather than 2, if you can accommodate them.

it makes a palpable difference on many of the better Atmos mixes on my setup.
 
Ah... got it! That makes sense.

I had a brief moment in this research process where I considered buying something much more expensive that would handle four heights without the need for a separate pre-amp.

But then I thought it could be somewhat of a wash in the end... spend more now to eliminate the need of an extra component, or buy something less expensive now and get the extra component later.

Could be wrong but I figured that at the eventual end of it all I’d spend about the same, it was just a matter of when I was spending the money.

“Later” won out due to other Christmas purchases for the family.
My Pre/Pro can output in Dolby Atmos. It has speaker terminals for 7.1 on the floor, I have 5.1 and 4 for ceiling heights.
My set up is 5 floor speakers 3 subs, two are connected LFE, one is not, and 4 speakers in ceiling
I have 4 in ceiling height speakers, connected to an amp, no reason, just because. My room is 12' the wall I look at X 14' long.
My two chair seating is basically in the middle of room, my 4 height speakers are basically lined up with my front L/R speakers about 3'in from side walls.
I sit with the top fronts about 3-4 feet in front of my head and the rear heights about the same at back of my head.
The idea is to create an immersive bubble of sound.
With flush mount ceiling speakers like mine they come with a tweeter you can angle towards the listener. Which I did.
Many people for whatever reason do not have the skills or the room to cut in celling speakers, and exposed small external speakers are used and connected either to a ceiling joist or with good and strong drywall screws, then you have to somehow make the wires look pretty.
I question myself now, if I had to do over again, I absolutely would still run the speaker cable behind the drywall, but I might be more inclined to not use flush mounted speakers?
I have a thread somewhere here on QQ with a very intense pictures etc of my build from 2020.
 
Call me old fashioned or 'behind the times' but are we are NOW at the pinnacle of another 'format war' for control of the overhead speaker world......Dolby with ATMOS, SONY with 360 Spatial and Warner with upmixing into ATMOS, et ALIA ...... and how many speakers are REALLY enough with front, center, subs, side, rears and NOW, OVERHEADS...and do they in any way MATCH so that a SEAMLESS, cohesive soundstage is present throughout?

With software graduating from 2.0 {Stereo} to QUAD to 5.1 to 7.1 to ATMOS to Auro 3D with as many as 11 channels or MORE, and with hardware [read: receivers] tasked with performing multiple codecs THIS mind boggles at the possibilities of how much is ENOUGH?

Reminds me of the not so olden days when just outfitting one's system with four channels to replicate QUAD was a tough sell to Joe Q Public but now we're faced with having 'dedicated' rooms in homes and/or spaces specifically not made to conform to audio[phile] standards and somehow make it all work to our advantage which in itself is no easy chore!

And then there's the SOFTWARE. If we're going to go ALL OUT ATMOS/AURO 3D, forget DVD~A or even SACD .... the new kid in town is BD~A which can just about do all of the above ..... but instead of being flooded by the Major record conglomerates with a plethora of PHYSICAL PURE AUDIO BD~As, we now have to download/stream these newer codecs which in most cases means 'RENTING' them for an unspecified time onto hard drives most times in LOSSY codecs and marvel at the sounds coming from just about all over the listening space!

A BIT confusing or a LOT confusing?

Being an 'equal opportunity' audiophile AND videophile buff .... I've spent the last few years assembling what I consider a pretty state of the art audio/video system and since I don't have the height to EFFECTIVELY do a NO COMPROMISE ATMOS/AURO 3D system, I've opted to install two self amplified Meridian overhead speakers which for me is sufficient to at least replicate a semblance of overhead activity and since most UHD4K films do have a dedicated 7.1 codec, and NOT a mix~down from ATMOS, it will have to make due for now.

And UNTIL the major record comglomerates FULLY decide which way to effectively transfer their digital files to either physical disc or wait until the bandwidth plays catchy up to allow streaming of LOSSLESS ATMOS remixes which Joe Q Public can actually OWN, I'll just have to be content to at least play the thousands of physical discs in ALL formats which I currently own to make due.
 
Many people for whatever reason do not have the skills or the room to cut in celling speakers, and exposed small external speakers are used and connected either to a ceiling joist or with good and strong drywall screws, then you have to somehow make the wires look pretty.
A year ago, we moved into the house we’re now in. It’s a 15 year old house, but someone had the fore-thought to wire it with Cat-5 (which I really appreciate even though the world is more about wireless now) and put four ceiling speakers in the living the room as part of a then-current sound system. All the equipment used to power everything was rather archaic by today’s standards and the owner took some of it with her. (Unfortunately she left a plasma TV that felt as heavy as a small vehicle. That was a fun load/unload for the recycling center.)

She did leave the business card for the people who did the audio setup all those years ago and, happily, they’re still in business. I had them come out and do some Cat-5 finish-work for me.

Next year the plan is to have them come back out and help put together a current system for the living room. And at least the ceiling speakers are already in place.

For my home office, the desk where I work is built into the corner and there’s a huge bookshelf along one wall. The center of the room goes up about 20 feet, with a lower level of ceiling height around the edges. I’m sure a pro could make this work and do wonders, but I’d rather invest the money for a fully decked system in the living room.

So for now, the office will be a bit of a compromise and built-up further when I have the money or inclination. Even now, though, I’m enjoying the heck out of it with my 7.1 setup. And it will get a bit better right after Christmas.

And reading the post @4-earredwonder just shared above me, I have already accepted that there’s no end to this hobby/passion. There’s always something to improve or a new format to consider. Frustrating in some ways, but enjoyable in others as things evolve.
 
A year ago, we moved into the house we’re now in. It’s a 15 year old house, but someone had the fore-thought to wire it with Cat-5 (which I really appreciate even though the world is more about wireless now) and put four ceiling speakers in the living the room as part of a then-current sound system. All the equipment used to power everything was rather archaic by today’s standards and the owner took some of it with her. (Unfortunately she left a plasma TV that felt as heavy as a small vehicle. That was a fun load/unload for the recycling center.)

She did leave the business card for the people who did the audio setup all those years ago and, happily, they’re still in business. I had them come out and do some Cat-5 finish-work for me.

Next year the plan is to have them come back out and help put together a current system for the living room. And at least the ceiling speakers are already in place.

For my home office, the desk where I work is built into the corner and there’s a huge bookshelf along one wall. The center of the room goes up about 20 feet, with a lower level of ceiling height around the edges. I’m sure a pro could make this work and do wonders, but I’d rather invest the money for a fully decked system in the living room.

So for now, the office will be a bit of a compromise and built-up further when I have the money or inclination. Even now, though, I’m enjoying the heck out of it with my 7.1 setup. And it will get a bit better right after Christmas.

And reading the post @4-earredwonder just shared above me, I have already accepted that there’s no end to this hobby/passion. There’s always something to improve or a new format to consider. Frustrating in some ways, but enjoyable in others as things evolve.
And the bittersweet IRONY of it all, Blackwood: Being a videophile, I continue to purchase Native UHD4K discs with ATMOS/7.1 LOSSLESS codecs for $7.99~$9.99 and have to pay upwards of $100~300 JUST to get a Pure Audio BD~A music disc....and yet, am THRILLED to still be able to purchase Dutton Vocalion's stunning QUAD SACD twofers and Three~fers for 'pennies on the dollar' and they ONLY require 4 dedicated speakers and are SONIC MARVELS!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, it's all so C R A Z Y!
 
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And the bittersweet IRONY of it all, Blackwood: Being a videohphile, I continue to purchase Native UHD4K discs with ATMOS/7.1 LOSSLESS codecs for $7.99~$9.99 and have to pay upwards of $100~300 JUST to get a Pure Audio BD~A music disc....and yet, am THRILLED to still be able to purchase Dutton Vocalion's stunning QUAD SACD twofers and Three~fers for 'pennies on the dollar' and they ONLY require 4 dedicated speakers and are SONIC MARVELS!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, it's all so C R A Z Y!
Some of my most enjoyable listening experiences since getting a surround system have been Quads. I never got to hear that as a kid in the 70s. It felt like more of a revelation to me once I finally heard it than even full surround.

(My Star Wars/Close Encounters from DV is still showing only Label Created about a week after ordering.)
 
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