Why is music so much better LOUD?

[J. PUPSTER]

I got one of these and am always bumping up against that 80-85db level before I've reached listening nirvana...
https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Product...Range+-+1+Year+Warranty&qid=1583602388&sr=8-1
I'm more worried about my headphone listening... hmm maybe should stick that meter into my headphones to read

 

[jimfisheye]

Louder always sounds better to humans. If you like what you hear, you'll like it more louder and sometimes you just want to rock out and make some f'n noise!

Some of that follows the Fletcher Munson curve. Louder pushes more highs and lows at you. (The 'loudness' button on older hi-fi gear was an eq with a bass and treble boost to simulate precisely that at lower overall volume.) This is a distance cue for the brain. Highs and lows fall off more quickly with distance. Louder makes the music "closer" to you.

Sometimes it might be a workaround for a poor mix! Turn it up enough and now you can hear some buried element more. It's not ideal. You'd prefer a more properly balanced mix. But in the moment, the revealed buried element outweighs the somewhat awkwardly too loud other elements and you're rocking out.

The whole volume war CD debacle mirrored this whole topic!
The loudness outweighed the compression damage (ahem, for some people anyway!) and people liked the loud.
Then that wasn't loud enough (and/or the damage started sounding muffled) so the treble slam hype thing started. The shrill nastiness was louder all right!

Ever heard someone screw up recording something but then say "We'll fix it in the mix."? (Pro tip: It doesn't work.)
That has devolved (following on the volume war CD business) into turning in unfinished mixes and saying "We'll fix it in mastering."
Where I'm going with this:
It's the same scenario there. You're turning it up to reveal something buried. Then - in this poor practice mastering example - smashing down everything else with a limiter.

Someone else mentioned listening to surround mixes too loud as a rule.
Maybe it's simply the first thing? Louder is better! And because you like surround... surround is REALLY better loud.

Maybe there are commonly more examples of wambly surround mixes? (eg. The experimental vibe quad mixes that also didn't get any rework time in the studio budget like the stereo mix often did.)
This might be simply turning something up to reveal buried content sometimes.

Heh. Now some people would call that dynamics and say it's proper to have dynamic recordings that need to be turned up!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

For many years now I have been the recipient from a special benefactor for my very own "Automated Volume Control System" - it's called...

Mrs. Pupster

 

[TVB]

I listen to amost everything at a certain level which I can describe as loud (you can slightly hear music and bass if you are standing outside the house). Anything below or above this level is just not acceptible to me. For me, there is a sweet spot for listening to music when everything is just right and tight. Too low and I just can't hear everything in proper prespective, but this level is not to the point where I've had to go shopping for hearing aids. Most of the concerts I've been to are WAY too loud, so I'm not talking about that kind of loud. When that drum blast comes, there needs to be a certain amount of air movement that screams authentic. A well designed clean amp is necesary. I just hooked up a vintage Soundcraftsman h-class amp (the one with the big meters) and its matching equalizer. After listening to "Eminance front" (the who cd) through a pair of vintage polks, all I can say is wow..... stays clean right up until the point where the speakers are ready to self destruct. Now thats loud, clean and GREAT.

 

[jimfisheye]

Good point @TVB that some sounds need to be a certain volume to be authentic. Full "real" sound.

No disagreement that there's a point of too loud either! Just focusing on the too quiet end in earlier comments.

 

[huggies66]

Old Man Rant Alert:

This is a serious point for you all to think about. I found out a year or so ago that although I can hear fine in my left ear, I lost the ability to hear high frequencies in it that I can still hear in my right.

I was told years ago when my left ear started losing the high frequencies that is highly common in males because we are more likely to drive with our window down most of the time. The wind buffeting noises on that ear apparently are pretty harsh. I've always got my windows down at least partially, unless it's too hot or cold for the ac/heater to compensate for. Growing up logging(never used ear prot), and my propensity to crank it when ever in the car haven't helped my hearing either.

 

[timothyemerson]

I tend to read for a while before I engage in some nighttime music listening or a movie and plug my ears up with my fingers pushing those little flappy bits near your ear hole shut. I find that this makes me more sensitive to sound and I can then enjoyably listen at lower volumes.

I often used to crank it when I was younger but can now appreciate the increased separation you experience at lower volumes with a decent surround mix. I still gotta crank it for favourite tunes and movies though but it's getting less and less the old I get. Gotta preserve my hearing as long as I can. I seem to have a ton of friends, family, neighbours and co-workers with hearing loss from a variety of causes and it really makes me want to avoid it if possible.

 

[The56Kid]

I keep a physical SPL meter and an SPL meter app on my cell phone with me at all times when cranking the jams in the Dungeon. I like to keep things at 85dBs or thereabouts on average. If a source isn’t over compressed, cranking it to 85dB allows it to really sing while not causing fatigue.

I use earplugs for live music listening as most shows/concerts can be ridiculously loud.

Music has always sounded better cranked!

 

[tonyE]

Volume wise... it depends on two things.

(1) How young and foolish your are.
(2) How good your equipment is.

The older you get and the better your equipment you have the lower volume you play. My Maggies won't play too loud, regardless of how much power I throw at them, and on paper they are lacking on bass... but sucking 80 watts of really clean Class A power, at about 96 dB, you get awesome sound.

And one more thing:

(3) What kind of music you're playing.

Over years I have converted to Harry Pearson's rule that there is a natural sound level for each recording. If you play at that level, you get the most realistic reproduction. As you get wise, you learn that. Furthermore I would like to note that HP did not describe one thing ( or maybe he thought it was obvious ) that affects the natural sound level for a recording: the playback equipment. See (2) above.

Unamplified and acoustic music don't play as loud as a rock and roll band. For that I use a class AB amp and my oldie, but trusty ADS L810s or a stack of Acoustic Energy AE1 and Entec woofers. That allows the rock back to come through very cleanly.

But the days when I actually blew a midrange in one of the L810s ( like 40 years ago ) playing Eric Clapton and Freddie King Live on Farther On Up The Road running the big Sansui receiver ( I still have it ) at 11, well, those days are long gone. But in the current Rock'n'roll speaker set up I can do The Pretenders ( 3.. 2... 1.. WHAM!!!!!!!!!!) perfectly, The guitars wail over the drums with NO distortion, likely well over 100 db. Hmm... 100 watts into a 90 db/w sensitive speaker... figure that out! ;-)

Of course, having an updated and maintained Linn LP12 helps a lot.

 

[MidiMagic]

When it's loud, you don't notice the mistakes in tuning and diction.

 

[kap'n krunch]

What is loud for you?

 

[Quad Linda]

What is loud for you?

13 or 14, not 10 or even 11.

Can you speak louder, please?

 

[par4ken]

The adage "Loud is beautiful, if it's clean" was the basis of a hifi advertisement for (I think) Cerwin Vega. Many people don't think that their system is loud unless it's pumping out gross distortion, I never understood why. If you want loud clean music bi-amping is the way to go, be it home, car or professional audio. I think most people like to hear their favourite songs played loud, while other music is better enjoyed (or tolerated) at more moderate volume levels. Funny thing though some music only sounds good when played loud. Van Halen and AC/DC come to mind, I never thought much of either until I heard it cranked up, on a clean system! The James Gang "Rides Again" album carries the disclaimer "Made Loud To Be Played Loud".

 

[Rawger]

I have been into high-end home and car stereo since the 70s. When I was customer service manager Rockford Fosgate in the late 80s we were the first to put decibel warnings in our owners manuals.
in researching the subject we discovered that distortion is far more dangerous than clean music sine waves. 90 dB of power tool is far more harmful than 100 dB of clean music. Loud is not always bad. I believe I am the only one who has ever won first place trophies for loudest car of show and best sounding car of show on the same day.

 

[jimfisheye]

I have been into high-end home and car stereo since the 70s. When I was customer service manager Rockford Fosgate in the late 80s we were the first to put decibel warnings in our owners manuals.
in researching the subject we discovered that distortion is far more dangerous than clean music sine waves. 90 dB of power tool is far more harmful than 100 dB of clean music. Loud is not always bad. I believe I am the only one who has ever won first place trophies for loudest car of show and best sounding car of show on the same day.

This ^^^

It's also how you can blow up speakers with an underpowered amp (where a more powerful amp would not have).
If the amp runs out of power, the output will be clipped creating square waves. You'll take out a speaker (or your ears!) much quicker!

Not only is the grinding distortion of power tools punishing on the ear from the character of the sound itself. Constant unchanging sound is much more harmful than loud sound that constantly changes like music. A repetitious/constant sound drills into the ear at those frequencies and never lets it relax. VERY harmful to the hearing!

 

[Rawger]

This ^^^

It's also how you can blow up speakers with an underpowered amp (where a more powerful amp would not have).
If the amp runs out of power, the output will be clipped creating square waves. You'll take out a speaker (or your ears!) much quicker!

Not only is the grinding distortion of power tools punishing on the ear from the character of the sound itself. Constant unchanging sound is much more harmful than loud sound that constantly changes like music. A repetitious/constant sound drills into the ear at those frequencies and never lets it relax. VERY harmful to the hearing!
[/QUOTE
Exactly. Distortion tends to look more like a square wave. DC. That is what burns voice coils.

 

[par4ken]

Not only is the grinding distortion of power tools punishing on the ear from the character of the sound itself. Constant unchanging sound is much more harmful than loud sound that constantly changes like music. A repetitious/constant sound drills into the ear at those frequencies and never lets it relax. VERY harmful to the hearing!
[/QUOTE]
Yes, also the sound of many CD's, victims of the loudness war. I find I have to turn down the treble to save my ears from the grating, grinding distortion, maybe not as bad as a clipping amp but still very annoying just the same!

 

[Arconada]

It is simple, the older you get, the less you are able to hear the soft sounds. Unless you turn the volume up.

 

[acuvox]

Meyer Sound has confirmed my observations recording chamber music in a 50 seat salon with REALLY fast peak meters: live music has a typical 18dB crest factor in the top octave. I record in DSF so dynamic range of the medium is not a problem, but tweeter clipping is.

When music is at realistic levels for a string quartet or a concert grand piano, "RMS" levels go over 95dB on crescendos and peak levels go to 115dB - and orchestral musicians do not have much worse hearing loss with age than the general population! That's because compressed audio is worse for hearing, typically distorting long before this REAL level is reproduced.

Consumer speakers are usually 80-90dB efficient for 1 Watt, AT 1 METER. At 2 meters, this is 74-85dB, at 3 meters it is 70-80dB - OK, you get room reflections that boost this but still...

Speaker ratings assume "pink noise", and more to the point tweeter power ratings add a second order high pass. A 90dB 1" dome tweeter producing 115dB at 1 meter (the biggest peaks are between 10KHz and 20KHz) will need to handle 300 Watt transients!

NO WAY! Most tweeters handle less than 10 Watts of heat before they smoke.

I only listen to AMT type tweeters, which have 10 to 40 times the surface area of a 1" dome (and 98dB efficiency), which translates to 20dB-26dB higher un-distorted output. With similar allowances for midrange (8"-10") and bass (2 liter displacement), you can crank it up a lot higher and not get the hearing damage of noise pollution like pink noise (hearing tests), machine industrial noise or ubiquitous audio transient and inter-modulation (Doppler) distortion.

https://meyersound.com/video/m-noise/

 

[Beefalo]

Meyer Sound has confirmed my observations recording chamber music in a 50 seat salon with REALLY fast peak meters: live music has a typical 18dB crest factor in the top octave. I record in DSF so dynamic range of the medium is not a problem, but tweeter clipping is.

When music is at realistic levels for a string quartet or a concert grand piano, "RMS" levels go over 95dB on crescendos and peak levels go to 115dB - and orchestral musicians do not have much worse hearing loss with age than the general population! That's because compressed audio is worse for hearing, typically distorting long before this REAL level is reproduced.

Consumer speakers are usually 80-90dB efficient for 1 Watt, AT 1 METER. At 2 meters, this is 74-85dB, at 3 meters it is 70-80dB - OK, you get room reflections that boost this but still...

Speaker ratings assume "pink noise", and more to the point tweeter power ratings add a second order high pass. A 90dB 1" dome tweeter producing 115dB at 1 meter (the biggest peaks are between 10KHz and 20KHz) will need to handle 300 Watt transients!

NO WAY! Most tweeters handle less than 10 Watts of heat before they smoke.

I only listen to AMT type tweeters, which have 10 to 40 times the surface area of a 1" dome (and 98dB efficiency), which translates to 20dB-26dB higher un-distorted output. With similar allowances for midrange (8"-10") and bass (2 liter displacement), you can crank it up a lot higher and not get the hearing damage of noise pollution like pink noise (hearing tests), machine industrial noise or ubiquitous audio transient and inter-modulation (Doppler) distortion.

https://meyersound.com/video/m-noise/

Welcome to the QQ forum acuvox !