Working with a "Montage"!!???

[JonUrban]

@:

This is a new term to me. I just opened my upgrade to WaveLab 5, and have quickly glanced at the software. It looks great. It has the ability to create menus and such, yet it seems so foriegn. discWelder is something that can be used right out of the box without a manual.

The Wavelab manual and I are going to retire to the study - - - -and study!
At least there is a manual included, and not just a big .PDF file on the CD.

Once I get the hang of it, I will try and help others. If you guys get it first, let me know!!!

:-jon

 

[winopener]

@:

This is a new term to me. I just opened my upgrade to WaveLab 5, and have quickly glanced at the software. It looks great. It has the ability to create menus and such, yet it seems so foriegn. discWelder is something that can be used right out of the box without a manual.
:-jon

got a deep look at Sonic DVD-Audio creator on a multimedia production company in Rome; the interface is awkard at best - it is composed by several little programs which do one function - but seems to have the possibility to create a dvd-a disc from a single big file, and place track markers. It does not support wave-ex files, so a pair of good ol' stereo is mandatory. This caused a mess - i went there with 4 mono files, 4-channel wave ex files, and had to convert them on the fly to do a test burn.
The only other thing that i've seen positive about that: all the basic programs just create a bunch of XML files for the authoring of the disc, so once you got one right, it should be easy to re-use the same XML files with little modification.

 

[neil wilkes]

The new version of Chrome, due out any day now, is going to walk all over DVD-A Creator in every department.
Check it out at www.discwelder.com

 

[winopener]

The new version of Chrome, due out any day now, is going to walk all over DVD-A Creator in every department.
Check it out at www.discwelder.com

thanks Neil. I approached Sonic software just because is the software that production company is using (they use all Sonic software for their authoring, it's the first time i've made it run the dvd-a creator package). Got to check out if Sonic show tha same "gap" problem as discwelder or not, this can be a major issue in album such as Dark Side or Caravanserai where the music is a continuous flow.
What i've found very intresting - i need to study them better and do a couple more test - is the use of xml files for the description of the authoring; givin a set of standardized names for the files, the pictures and remaining withing the same parameters (sr, bit, ch. numbers etc) seems to be a thing that can be pratical as a cuesheet for cd-da, highly reusable and (what is more important for me, since i don't have at present time any package for that) it allows me to author a complete disc without any Sonic software: the only passage i will need to do with Sonic is to create the AudioTS and AOB stuff. So i may be able to load a half HD of files ready for the task, go there and in a hour i can create the dvd-a images.

 

[neil wilkes]

I'm not having a gapping problem with Chrome and MLP files. The gapless track points are working absolutely flawlessly for me. Admittedly I have not tried this with PCM files yet, but as I never use them I just haven't had to.
Also, there is nothing except the XML lists in Sonic that is not either already in Chrome, or will be in Chrome 2 - including the Video Zone legality check function.
I can already link to the Video Zone with no trouble, thus creating 2 kinds of Hybrid - linked or non linked.
Chrome 2 is going to have full PSD import for custom menus, motion menus, the whole lot. Plus an Automirror function using built in SurCode DDE to create a strict legal Video Zone from the high res content.

Still not sure where I would find a use for the XML files, as I can create the DVD-A files in next to no time at all for every project, and as each project is different, I cannot find a use for the scripts. Maybe I am missing something, but at £5000 for the LE version, and £15000 for the Full version, is it really worth my while splashing the extra cash?
I await convincing - what am I missing?

 

[winopener]

Still not sure where I would find a use for the XML files, as I can create the DVD-A files in next to no time at all for every project, and as each project is different, I cannot find a use for the scripts. Maybe I am missing something, but at £5000 for the LE version, and £15000 for the Full version, is it really worth my while splashing the extra cash?
I await convincing - what am I missing?

Well, Neil, you do that for work, i'm a hobbist and sure i can't afford a 5000 UK Pound for a hobby. Sure enough that until some popular mastering software, such as Easy Cd or Nero don't support dvd-a it will remain a thing for very few aficionados.

 

[JonUrban]

Guess What? I tried playing the two DVD-A discs I created from Moody Blues reels in my car, which were created using discWelder Bronze and their "Gapless" feature, and they PLAYED PERFECTLY!!! Gapless as hell!!!

I was very pleased, as I had faded one song into the next (a little) like they did on the original "This is the Moody Blues", and gaps would have ruined it. So, maybe my DENON 2900 does not like the discWelder CDRs, but the ELS machine in the TL plays it perfectly.

This could be a machine specific problem.

 

[neil wilkes]

Maybe the Denon's firmware cannot recognise gapless tracks?
It could be worth checking with Denon about this, as gapess PCM tracks are allowed in the DVD-A spec, and all currently manufactured machines should support it.

Definitely sounds like a bug in the player software to me.

 

[Frank]

I use steel and with gapless my Denon DVD A11 (DVD5900) plays perfectly.

I use a motu 896HD for ad/da conversion, cubase SX2 for recording and mixing and steel for DVDA burning.
Cubase SX2 supports 6 channel throug the VST mixer.


I'm also considering wavelab 5 as it also gives me the ability to record 8 tracks at 24/192. With the added support for DVDA creation it's a fairly good deal.

Frank

 

[JonUrban]

OK - I got it now. I will come up with a "How to" once I do it a few more times.

What you have to do it get your 4 mono files for each track, just as you would with discWelder. Then, you create an empty "Montage", set it for DVD-A, then the number of channels you want to use. You can then insert the first "track" (four mono files) into the montage. Then, you assign the tracks to the proper channel (L,R,LS,RS). Move the cursor to the end of the first track, then insert the next group of 4 mono files into the SAME TRACK. Repeat for as many tracks as you need.

Then, you have to render the montage. Once it's rendered, you can save it and use it in your DVD-A. You can actually use multiple montages on one DVD-A!

WHen you create the DVD-A, a menu is generated from the tracks in the montage, so you have to make sure your wav files are named properly, as you cannot change them in the DVD-A menu area.

At this point, save and burn. It's pretty easy. There are a few steps I left out, but I will work on an acurate list once I am positive I am doing everything right!

Pretty cool!!!

 

[neil wilkes]

I use steel and with gapless my Denon DVD A11 (DVD5900) plays perfectly.

I use a motu 896HD for ad/da conversion, cubase SX2 for recording and mixing and steel for DVDA burning.
Cubase SX2 supports 6 channel throug the VST mixer.


I'm also considering wavelab 5 as it also gives me the ability to record 8 tracks at 24/192. With the added support for DVDA creation it's a fairly good deal.

Frank

I would not be too sure about the 8 tracks at 192KHz in WaveLab. That will depend entirely on your converters.
With an 8 channel converter & DS mode, you will get 8 at 96KHz.
I do not know if the MOTU does 192 KHz, and if it gives 8 at 96KHz, then the best you will get - if it does 192 - is 4 channels. You simply run out of bitstream at this point - This is why you cannot have multichannel DVD-A at 192KHz. There simply is no availabe bitrate. A standard SP-DIF/Coaxial connection will ony ever give stereo at 192KHz.

Besides - doesn't SX record at 192? Nuendo will go up to 384!

Check your MOTU manual very carefuy, plus the DVDA specs.
Finally, Waveab will not do multichannel higher than 24/48 due to the lack of MLP support.

 

[winopener]

Finally, Waveab will not do multichannel higher than 24/48 due to the lack of MLP support.

No way to make 24/96/4 on Wavelab? That's bad...

 

[JonUrban]

WRONG! My first WaveLab test DVD-A was 4.0 24/96 with no problem at all!!

Now I just have to figure out how to get the menu to stay onscreen while the songs play!

 

[neil wilkes]

That is good news. Must be really close on the bitrate though.
Still waiting for my copy, so cannot help with keeping menus onscreen so far, but I do know about the multiple montages...
Each montage corresponds to a Group. There can be up to 9 groups on a DVD-A disc. Each group can contain up to 99 tracks.
Unfortunately, Bronze will only let you use a single group, so this is why you didn't know about this.

Also - odd fact - in Chrome 1, there is no way of keeping the menu onscreen at the same time the track is playing. You can use a slideshow though. This is corrected in the forthcoming version 2.

 

[Frank]

I would not be too sure about the 8 tracks at 192KHz in WaveLab. That will depend entirely on your converters.
With an 8 channel converter & DS mode, you will get 8 at 96KHz.
I do not know if the MOTU does 192 KHz, and if it gives 8 at 96KHz, then the best you will get - if it does 192 - is 4 channels. You simply run out of bitstream at this point - This is why you cannot have multichannel DVD-A at 192KHz. There simply is no availabe bitrate. A standard SP-DIF/Coaxial connection will ony ever give stereo at 192KHz.

Besides - doesn't SX record at 192? Nuendo will go up to 384!

Check your MOTU manual very carefuy, plus the DVDA specs.
Finally, Waveab will not do multichannel higher than 24/48 due to the lack of MLP support.

I have checked. It does eight channels at 192ks. I can daisy chain two units on a firewire bus for 16 channels at 96ks. The maximum is four units for up to 32 channels at 48ks.

SX goes up to 96ks (which for me is good enough).

5 channel 20bit at 88.2ks should be possible too. However I don't know if wavelab is able to dither doen to 20bit.

Frank

 

[neil wilkes]

WaveLab will dither to 20 bit using the built in UV22HR plug.
I seriously doubt you will get 5 channels at 88.2 as well.
Personally, I think you would be better off raising the resolution to 24 bit, and using 44.1 or 48K samplerates.
Any serious difference between 44.1 and 88.2KHz is going to be your converters - not the actual audio.

AFAIK, not one test so far used measures anything other than the filters in the converters - Not the actual Audio.

 

[Cai Campbell]

Because of the bit-rate restriction of 9.6 MB per second combined with the fact that it does not create MLP files, WaveLab cannot create 6-channel discs greater than 24/48. It can, however, create 4-channel disks up to 24/96 and 2-channel discs up to 24/192.

Also, according to the documentation, the program will warn you if you try and create a disc that exceeds 9.6 MB per sec throughput. It doesn't sound like it will automatically dither or downsample; you have to explicitily tell it to do so.

The documentation doesn't explictly state that you can create a 5-channel 24/88.2 disc, but you can try, and it will either give you a warning or allow you to do it. Or you could do the math and see if it is feasible... I would but I'm feeling too lazy at the moment.

 

[neil wilkes]

You can indeed dither down to 20 bit if the built in multichannel ditherer is the same as the one in Nuendo - UV22HR does it, but AFAIK ony in stereo. (STILL waiting for delivery of wavelab 5), and there is a surround dither in Nuendo that uses Gerzonic dither, everything from 8bit to 24 bit, type 1&2 dither, types 1-3 noise shape.