YES-90125 Remaster

[timw]

Set your surround receiver/processor on whatever the DSP setting is that will give you a surround effect from a 2 channel source and play this CD. You'll swear you're listening to a 5.1 disc! "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is amazing. Lead vocal-discrete center. Backing vocals & some effects in the surrounds. The guitar solo seems to move around all channels-very cool!
Tim W

 

[ssully]

Speaking of Yes remasters, the Tormato one surprised me in this regard too, with lots of keyboard work in the surrounds, when using DPL II (music mode).

 

[Relayer]

Speaking of the Yes remasters, what are your thoughts?

Having had all the albums in their first-CD-issue versions, then all the '96 remasters, and just recently all the Japan HDCDs, I'm not really willing to turn the whole collection over yet again.

That said, I'm very curious as to how they sound, particularly in comparison to the Japanese HDCDs (which in my opinion are quite fantastic).

 

[ssully]

Speaking of the Yes remasters, what are your thoughts?

Having had all the albums in their first-CD-issue versions, then all the '96 remasters, and just recently all the Japan HDCDs, I'm not really willing to turn the whole collection over yet again.

That said, I'm very curious as to how they sound, particularly in comparison to the Japanese HDCDs (which in my opinion are quite fantastic).

I think several of the HDCDS sounds pretty bad, though one (Tales) sounds very good. The HDCDs are *extremely* tweaked, maximized/compressed close to the hilt in some cases . For example, "CLose to the Edge' has no fade in from silence anymore; the 'silence' starts as a wall of noise. This doesn't sound good to me at all. And it's typical of too many of the HDCDs. See this comparison I set up of various remasters, using a track off Relayer as an example:

Sound Chaser wavs

Here's what the HDCD version waveform means: so long, dynamic range.

The new ones by comparison are a nice balance between 'tweaked' and
flat transfer. They all sound pretty good to me. I've seen the usual audiophile nonsense on the usual forums...some saying 'no bass' others 'too much bass"! The remasters also have some fascinating bonus tracks. As a result of all this I've 'retired' the HDCDs, though they still have the best packaging (i.e., totally faithful to the originals).

 

[Cai Campbell]

It's really too bad the Japanese issues have been tweaked so badly. The packaging is beautiful, and I bought up the entire issue just for the packaging. I hate it when they maximize the crap out of the music. Oh well. I can listen to my original LPs while I stare longingly at the beautiful Japanese HDCDs...

Anyway, speaking of Yes CDs that sound great through a surround decoder, I recommend "Symphonic Yes" and "Open Your Eyes" (surround version). "Symphonic Yes" is Dolby Prologic encoded and sounds spectacular through a Tate decoder in SQ mode. "Open Your Eyes" comes in two flavors: regular stereo release and special surround release. The surround release is encoded in some "new" surround format that is essentially a variation of Dolby Prologic. Once again, it sounds spectacular through a Tate decoder in SQ mode.

The funny thing is, when DPL material is played through an SQ decoder, the soundfield is usually skewed due to the differing speaker assignments between the two formats. With these two Yes titles, this is not the case. It is almost as if they purposefully encoded them for quadraphonic playback instead of DPL. I haven't tried playing them through a DPLII decoder but that could prove interesting as well.

 

[Relayer]

Wow... it's great to see those .wavs. Thanks for posting them! The visual representation certainly gets the message across in no uncertain terms.

To be perfectly honest, I hadn't really noticed the Japanese HDCDs being compressed/tweaked on listening to them... or, at least, this was to me overcome by the many other advantages of this series.

I A-B'd with the '96 remasters... I guess I was just so blown away by what I considerd the big improvement in detail (check, for instance, the cymbals on Yessongs' Close To The Edge -- you can hear the sticks hitting the cymbals as distinct events from their subsequent ring), that I overlooked the dynamics issue.

Hmmm. I shall have to develop a more discerning ear to really appreciate the subtleties of remastering...

I confess that I too was *most* impressed by the fabulous packaging of the Japanese versions.... and, much as I'm curious to hear the extra tracks, I really don't like having my bonus tracks tacked onto the ends of what I consider albums that are complete experiences in themselves.

[I could imagine nothing worse than, for instance, hearing the final bit of Eclipse fading out, taking a deep breath, and... before I could gather my sonically-stupefied self to get up and cross the floor to stop the CD player... being bombarded by a rough mix of "Time," say.]

[That said, I'd love to have (and would pay for) a mutil-disc set compiling all the rarities/b-sides/outtakes/demos in chronological order.]


As to the Pro-Logic-encoded discs, I'll definitely have to give the Symphonic album a listen in SQ mode -- haven't played it since well before I got the 9001 setup.

As to Open Your Eyes, I don't know whether any amount of multi-channel encoding would make me really want to listen to that album. It's the nadir of the whole Yes catalogue, in my opinion. But, chacon son gout.


What's the word on other Japanese mini-LP issues? I have the first 5 Allman Brothers albums (non-HDCD) and was rather disappointed with them, but the King Crimson HDCDs I've heard are excellent.

 

[Relayer]

One more thing:

Does anyone know if there is software - or if it's even possible - to play HDCDs in HDCD format on a computer?

I ask because I understand Microsoft has purchased the technology... so I thought maybe one of their media software packages might have HDCD capabilities.

 

[ssully]

Wow... it's great to see those .wavs. Thanks for posting them! The visual representation certainly gets the message across in no uncertain terms.

To be perfectly honest, I hadn't really noticed the Japanese HDCDs being compressed/tweaked on listening to them... or, at least, this was to me overcome by the many other advantages of this series.

I A-B'd with the '96 remasters... I guess I was just so blown away by what I considerd the big improvement in detail (check, for instance, the cymbals on Yessongs' Close To The Edge -- you can hear the sticks hitting the cymbals as distinct events from their subsequent ring), that I overlooked the dynamics issue.

It's pretty well established as a psychoacoustic phenom that when the same source is presented twice,with one being louder than the other, the louder one tends to be perceived as'better sounding' or 'more detailed'. (This is an old trick in audio retail salons, btw -- subtle 'adjustment' of the volume knob accompanied by 'now, doesn't this sound better?' can clinch the sale).

The Close to the Edge and Fragile HDCDs sounded 'off' to me pretty much as soon as I heard them...it sounded like they/d been 'magnified' under a microscope, is the only way I can describe it...and sure enough it turned out their wavs were , shall we say, *bloated*. (The Joe Gastwirt Fragile was and remains a fine-sounding version of that album, IMO.. a creditbale alternative to the also-fine-sounding Rhino remaster on CD and DVD-A).[EIDT: I now heartily disrecommend the Rhino and the DVDA! Extreme dynamic range compression present in both]. Yessongs sounded better to me than the 96 remaster, but I could tell it had been jacked up a lot too. Tales sounded *so* much better than the 96 remaster that I didn't care even if it sounded like it had been sourced from clean (or cleaned-up) vinyl.

By all means, listen to what sounds good (including the HDCDs, if they sound good to you) . To me, the new remasters have all the benefits of the 'good' HDCDs, without their sonic flaws. I think Rhino (Hersch and Inglot) did a nice job overall. You'll note that this means I don't automatically object to some 'tweaking' (there's some digital clipping visible in the Rhino 'Sound Chaser' wav), as some purists might. [EDIT: i've since reverted to liking the first two CD version of Relayer more -- the Rhino has some pretty severe treble end loss, when compared directly via A/B headphone listening, and via frequency profiling]

Hmmm. I shall have to develop a more discerning ear to really appreciate the subtleties of remastering...

Well, there's also the fact that I've been listening to these albums for decades...
so when the 'water' intro of Close to the Edge come slamming in like that, I can't help but notice.

I confess that I too was *most* impressed by the fabulous packaging of the Japanese versions.... and, much as I'm curious to hear the extra tracks, I really don't like having my bonus tracks tacked onto the ends of what I consider albums that are complete experiences in themselves.

[I could imagine nothing worse than, for instance, hearing the final bit of Eclipse fading out, taking a deep breath, and... before I could gather my sonically-stupefied self to get up and cross the floor to stop the CD player... being bombarded by a rough mix of "Time," say.]

If that really bothers you, you can either program your player not to play the bonus tracks, or burn a CDR copy of hte disc *without* the bonus tracks.


[That said, I'd love to have (and would pay for) a mutil-disc set compiling all the rarities/b-sides/outtakes/demos in chronological order.]

Given Rhino's recent personnel massacre, I'm not even sure the promised live Yes box is going to come out...much less any more studio rarities. The fellow who was overseeing the Yes stuff is gone.

As to the Pro-Logic-encoded discs, I'll definitely have to give the Symphonic album a listen in SQ mode -- haven't played it since well before I got the 9001 setup.

I'm not the guy who touted PL-encoded discs, but FWIW I sold that 'Symphonic Music of Yes' turkey years ago. I thought it was dreadful. My comment was that some of the plain old stereo CDs do interesting things when run through DPL II.

As to Open Your Eyes, I don't know whether any amount of multi-channel encoding would make me really want to listen to that album. It's the nadir of the whole Yes catalogue, in my opinion. But, chacon son gout.

I can't say I've listened to OYE all the way through more than twice.

What's the word on other Japanese mini-LP issues? I have the first 5 Allman Brothers albums (non-HDCD) and was rather disappointed with them, but the King Crimson HDCDs I've heard are excellent.

Some minis are simply the standard CDs repackaged (e.g. the Led Zep and Genesis minis) . Some are remastered and sound as well as look different (e.g. Yes). Other than the Yes ones, I don't own enough to make generalizations.

 

[ssully]

One more thing:

Does anyone know if there is software - or if it's even possible - to play HDCDs in HDCD format on a computer?

Yes, recent versions of Windows Media Player have a setting to enable HDCD decoding.

 

[Relayer]

It's pretty well established as a psychoacoustic phenom that when the same source is presented twice,with one being louder than the other, the louder one tends to be perceived as'better sounding' or 'more detailed'. (This is an old trick in audio retail salons, btw -- subtle 'adjustment' of the volume knob accompanied by 'now, doesn't this sound better?' can clinch the sale).

That makes perfect sense to me -- I remember thinking when I first A/B'd them that part of my extra enjoyment was due to the louder presentation.

Nevertheless, I tried to be objective about it and still came out thinking there was more detail in the Japanese versions, particularly with Yessongs and Tales.

I agree about the unpleasant loss of the fade-in on Close To The Edge... seems like a really odd decision to have made, especially if the goal of the whole project is to reproduce the original vinyl experience.

I can't remember right now, but what about the echo on the slide guitar at the end of And You And I? As I recall, it was cut off rather abruptly on the 96 remaster... I think I'd trade the fade in on CTTE for the full completion of And You And I.

Also, I found there is a lot of what sounds to me like "tape hiss" evident on the Japanese versions, particularly on Yessongs and Close To The Edge.

If that really bothers you, you can either program your player not to play the bonus tracks, or burn a CDR copy of hte disc *without* the bonus tracks.

[That said, I'd love to have (and would pay for) a mutil-disc set compiling all the rarities/b-sides/outtakes/demos in chronological order.]

Given Rhino's recent personnel massacre, I'm not even sure the promised live Yes box is going to come out...much less any more studio rarities. The fellow who was overseeing the Yes stuff is gone.

True enough -- I guess it's more of an intangible look/feel thing for me. I like my *albums* as *albums* -- ideally for me, the best solution would be to have something like the Rhino re-issues come out as 2-disc sets, with the first disc being the original album, and the second a "bonus."

I would think that the additional cost of a second disc would be offset by the marketing push you could give this idea -- make the "bonus" disc a large-run limited edition, so you pull in all the loyal fans who've read about the re-issues on the websites, etc., right away...

Too bad about Rhino -- I hadn't heard about that. They really seemed to have some cool projects going on there lately. This will doubtless be a serious blow.

I'm not the guy who touted PL-encoded discs, but FWIW I sold that 'Symphonic Music of Yes' turkey years ago. I thought it was dreadful. My comment was that some of the plain old stereo CDs do interesting things when run through DPL II.

Wait a minute... I'm confused... you mean *that* Symphonic Yes album? Oh dear... I was thinking that the symphonic Yes disc that's PL-encoded was "Magnification," the 2001 set of original material.But you're quite right... Magnification is an HDCD.

I concur whole-heartedly about the awfulness of the Symphonic Music Of... disc. Wasn't that another instalment in the long list of David Palmer's symphonic fiascos?


As to HDCD decoding with Media Player... now I finally have an incentive to install Windows Media Player, which I otherwise hate with an intense and burning passion. I've been proudly "Media Player-free" for several years. But I wonder if the HDCD decoding would be worth it...

 

[Cai Campbell]

As ssully says, Windows Media Player 9 will decode HDCDs and a little HDCD logo shows up in the player when it detects them. Kinda cool!

You know, I don't usually like that "symphonic (your fave rock band here)" crap, but "Symphonic Music of Yes" (full and proper title) is an exception. I mean, you've got Steve Howe, Bill Bruford and Jon Anderson participating, unlike other symphonic stuff done for other bands (such as Pink Floyd) where no band members participate. It sounds more "Yes" and less "symphonic".

I think the arrangements are exceptionally good and the music of Yes lends itself quite handily to this treatment. I did NOT have high hopes for this title but I must say that I have enjoyed it immensely. Seriously, you owe it to yourself to give this one another listen. Personally, I think it is really, really good.

As for "Open Your Eyes", I didn't have high hopes for this one either. It's not great but it's not bad either. I quite enjoyed it but it does wear thin after a few listens. Certainly not their worst work by a long shot.

 

[ssully]

That makes perfect sense to me -- I remember thinking when I first A/B'd them that part of my extra enjoyment was due to the louder presentation.

Nevertheless, I tried to be objective about it and still came out thinking there was more detail in the Japanese versions, particularly with Yessongs and Tales.

A fairer comparison would involve carefully level-matching different versions and then doing the listening. Then all you're hearing is the EQ , compression etc...;>

I agree about the unpleasant loss of the fade-in on Close To The Edge... seems like a really odd decision to have made, especially if the goal of the whole project is to reproduce the original vinyl experience.

I can't remember right now, but what about the echo on the slide guitar at the end of And You And I? As I recall, it was cut off rather abruptly on the 96 remaster... I think I'd trade the fade in on CTTE for the full completion of And You And I.

A couple of the Gastwirt/Marinos had abrupt fades, my guess it was to hide tape damage or some other telltale sign of wear.

Also, I found there is a lot of what sounds to me like "tape hiss" evident on the Japanese versions, particularly on Yessongs and Close To The Edge.

Well, yes, jacking up that levels and reducing the dynamic range will have that effect -- tape hiss becomes more noticeable ;>

I concur whole-heartedly about the awfulness of the Symphonic Music Of... disc. Wasn't that another instalment in the long list of David Palmer's symphonic fiascos?

Yes.

 

[bliss_band]

Drama is great in surround, run through SQ or QS (Reg MTX). The Buggles albums also sound wonderful, especially their version of Yes's 'I Am A Camera (Into The Lens)' on Adventures In Modern Recording (The Buggles' second album).

 

[salsdali]

I dl'ed an obscure 5.1 DTS upmix many, many years ago and it's fukin incredible. The bass is lacking but OMG the vocals and high end and surround effect.

It can Happen

Look up
Look down
Look out
Look around
There's a crazy world outside
We're not about to lose our pride

 

[salsdali]

(1983) 90125 PoRFiN Upmix - Warner HDCD 24 bit Remastered 2001] (DTS-CD 5.1)

 

[ssully]

I think several of the HDCDS sounds pretty bad, though one (Tales) sounds very good. The HDCDs are *extremely* tweaked, maximized/compressed close to the hilt in some cases . For example, "CLose to the Edge' has no fade in from silence anymore; the 'silence' starts as a wall of noise. This doesn't sound good to me at all. And it's typical of too many of the HDCDs. See this comparison I set up of various remasters, using a track off Relayer as an example:

Sound Chaser wavs

Here's what the HDCD version waveform means: so long, dynamic range.

The new ones by comparison are a nice balance between 'tweaked' and
flat transfer. They all sound pretty good to me. I've seen the usual audiophile nonsense on the usual forums...some saying 'no bass' others 'too much bass"! The remasters also have some fascinating bonus tracks. As a result of all this I've 'retired' the HDCDs, though they still have the best packaging (i.e., totally faithful to the originals).

Nearly 20 years later, I'd revise this to note that both the Tales AND the Relayer HDCDs (original issue HDCDs from 1999) sound excellent when decoded. Both of these used 'Peak Extension' so decoding them restores the dynamic range. Those two HDCDs are my go-to versions and have been for years now. The 'flat transfers' offered on the Steve Wilson BluRay sets don't compare.

The other Yes HDCDs from that era are still quite bad. Decoding doesn't fix them.