HDMI Multichannel De-Embedding

[mutant_matt]

Will this decode 5.1 flac over HDMI from a computer to analog outputs & still pass on the 5.1 flac through the output HDMI?

Rog

I beleive that when it makes it onto the HDMI transport, it's by then been converted to a bitstream which the other end is likely to decode as LPCM...FLAC is a storage/container.

 

[MixerRog]

I beleive that when it makes it onto the HDMI transport, it's by then been converted to a bitstream which the other end is likely to decode as LPCM...FLAC is a storage/container.

Thanks, I had a feeling that was the case as all the ones I have tried would not decode 5.1 flac files correctly to analog. I finally bought a receiver to do it.

Rog

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I beleive that when it makes it onto the HDMI transport, it's by then been converted to a bitstream which the other end is likely to decode as LPCM...FLAC is a storage/container.

Yep... FLAC is decoded by default to LPCM prior to being passed via HDMI

 

[mandrix]

I had good luck with this one. Prices are half what I paid. You will have to buy the SP/DIF to Analog conversion cables, cheap enough.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13348

 

[Kal Rubinson]

You will have to buy the SP/DIF to Analog conversion cables, cheap enough.

What are those "conversion cables?" All I see on that box are HDMI, TosLink and TRS jacks.

 

[zeerround]

I think there was another thread on this recently...

Anyway, you want one that will present its own EDID, if you read through all the reviews of these devices. @boondocks and I identified this one as a winner (and supports 7.1):

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13348

 

[mandrix]

What are those "conversion cables?" All I see on that box are HDMI, TosLink and TRS jacks.

3.5 mm to dual rca. The unit has 4 sets of stereo 3.5 mm jacks....
sp/dif was a misspeak.

 

[mandrix]

...and wrong. lol.

 

[MixerRog]

I think there was another thread on this recently...

Anyway, you want one that will present its own EDID, if you read through all the reviews of these devices. @boondocks and I identified this one as a winner (and supports 7.1):

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13348

Glenn,

Thanks, I wrote the co. about this box as I need one that will decode 5.1 flacs to at least analog stereo (for some video displays) but also provide unchanged HDMI output for receiver 5.1 flac decoding all from a computer HDMI output of 5.1 flacs.

Rog

 

[mandrix]

Roger it has HDMI passthrough. Sometimes I plugged a monitor in the passthrough HDMI port.

 

[MixerRog]

Roger it has HDMI passthrough. Sometimes I plugged a monitor in the passthrough HDMI port.

Does it not alter the HDMI HDCP in any way? When I tried a HDMI Splitter on my Computer output, even with one side disconnected, I could not get 5.1 flacs decoded correctly -- only to stereo which really surprised me.

HDCP is a real bad issue IMO with it doing it's own thing It seems. I had my system working the way I wanted it from my receiver with 5.1 from my receiver & stereo to the TV until I power cycled everything -- then only stereo output until the receiver was set for no TV audio over HDMI -- then I got 5.1 audio back to my speakers from the reciever after logging off & back on from my computer but as soon as I set the receiver to put out 5.1 + audio over HDMI to the TV, all went to stereo only.

Rog

 

[DuncanS]

Does it not alter the HDMI HDCP in any way? When I tried a HDMI Splitter on my Computer output, even with one side disconnected, I could not get 5.1 flacs decoded correctly -- only to stereo which really surprised me.

HDCP is a real bad issue IMO with it doing it's own thing It seems. I had my system working the way I wanted it from my receiver with 5.1 from my receiver & stereo to the TV until I power cycled everything -- then only stereo output until the receiver was set for no TV audio over HDMI -- then I got 5.1 audio back to my speakers from the reciever after logging off & back on from my computer but as soon as I set the receiver to put out 5.1 + audio over HDMI to the TV, all went to stereo only.

Rog

HDCP 2.2 is <expletive deleted>!!

 

[zeerround]

This is what I meant about you want one that has its own EDID capability (from an amazon review):

"
By Don K. on July 19, 2022I have a fairly basic setup. A Windows 10 PC is connected via its HDMI cable to a Samsung TV. I have four powered surround speakers. Windows is capable of generating stereo, 5.1 and7.1 audio if the device the HDMI output is connected to is capable of receiving multichannel sound.
My old system used an Onkyo A/V receiver with powered surround sound speaker outputs. I then upgraded my system adding powered speakers and removing the Onkyo amplifier. I still wanted to use the PC's HDMI multichannel output and use an audio extractor device to feed my powered speakers.
The problem I ran into with most HDMI audio extractors is that they pass through the HDMI signal from the PC to the Samsung TV. The result is that Windows "sees" only the two channel Samsung TV and won't allow more than two stereo channels to be generated. After some research, I learned the problem is a protocol called Extended Display Identification Data (EDID) which allows devices to communicate to each other about their video and audio capabilities. In my case, the Samsung TV's EDID was telling the Windows PC, "I can only handle two stereo channels", so that's all Windows sent it.
The Monoprice Blackbird Extractor solved this problem because it can produce its own 7.1 audio EDID. I was then able to generate surround channels with the Windows PC and use the optical and analog outputs on the Blackbird to feed my surround powered speakers while feeding the HDMI video to the two channel TV. The Blackbird will even do this without a device connected to the HDMI output. Also, unlike other extractors, both the optical and analog outputs can be used at the same time.
I want to add that the Monoprice customer support was excellent. I was actual able to speak to a knowledgeable support person on the phone. see less"

 

[zeerround]

HDCP is a different issue, but could cause similar symptoms, but only when dealing with copy protected content.

The idea there was for Players that had Dolby/DTS decoders, BEFORE AVRs had them. Instead of bitstreaming to your AVR you would have the BlueRay player do the audio decoding and send LPCM to your AVR. If you didn't have a clean HDCP connection, the player could drop back to stereo, refusing to pass high(er) quality/channel count audio.

In any case the monoprice is "Compliant with HDMI, HDCP 1.2".

 

[gene_stl]

The Atlona 570 has an HDMI switch. I love the threads here that answer questions I didn't even know to ask.

"HDMI VIDEO Dip Switch
Switch between On and Off.
ON - Follows the EDID of the connected
display. Audio and Video will be the
highest common resolution between
source and display. If either device has no
audio, no audio will pass. (e.g. projector)
OFF - Will set the audio portion of EDID
to 2Ch, while still passing the highest
common video resolution. The audio will
pass even if no display is connected."

 

[MixerRog]

This is what I meant about you want one that has its own EDID capability (from an amazon review):

"
By Don K. on July 19, 2022I have a fairly basic setup. A Windows 10 PC is connected via its HDMI cable to a Samsung TV. I have four powered surround speakers. Windows is capable of generating stereo, 5.1 and7.1 audio if the device the HDMI output is connected to is capable of receiving multichannel sound.
My old system used an Onkyo A/V receiver with powered surround sound speaker outputs. I then upgraded my system adding powered speakers and removing the Onkyo amplifier. I still wanted to use the PC's HDMI multichannel output and use an audio extractor device to feed my powered speakers.
The problem I ran into with most HDMI audio extractors is that they pass through the HDMI signal from the PC to the Samsung TV. The result is that Windows "sees" only the two channel Samsung TV and won't allow more than two stereo channels to be generated. After some research, I learned the problem is a protocol called Extended Display Identification Data (EDID) which allows devices to communicate to each other about their video and audio capabilities. In my case, the Samsung TV's EDID was telling the Windows PC, "I can only handle two stereo channels", so that's all Windows sent it.
The Monoprice Blackbird Extractor solved this problem because it can produce its own 7.1 audio EDID. I was then able to generate surround channels with the Windows PC and use the optical and analog outputs on the Blackbird to feed my surround powered speakers while feeding the HDMI video to the two channel TV. The Blackbird will even do this without a device connected to the HDMI output. Also, unlike other extractors, both the optical and analog outputs can be used at the same time.
I want to add that the Monoprice customer support was excellent. I was actual able to speak to a knowledgeable support person on the phone. see less"

Glenn,

Thanks very much for the details. It sounds like Monoprice Blackbird Extractor might do what I need but I am waiting for a reply from their technical support also to confirm.

Rog

 

[ClassicalSurroundFan]

Glenn,

Thanks very much for the details. It sounds like Monoprice Blackbird Extractor might do what I need but I am waiting for a reply from their technical support also to confirm.

Rog

If anyone is interested in the sound of these various low end converters, I have done A/B comparisons with the Blackbird and the generic version from eBay with rca outputs instead of 3.5mm. The Blackbird had noticeably weaker and a bit thinner analog output. As far as EDID, my Mac Mini does see my TV (a vintage Panasonic plasma) rather than the extractor, but MCH flacs play no problem. I imagine a newer Samsung could definitely cause a problem as they are notoriously buggy. Pretty sure there is some kind of blocker that can be used between the extractor and the TV if necessary.

At this point I simply go straight to analogue from a Motu interface for really strong DA conversion, and only use the hdmi extractor for the Apple TV. Enter the Zektor switch for multiple analog feeds…

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

If anyone is interested in the sound of these various low end converters, I have done A/B comparisons with the Blackbird and the generic version from eBay with rca outputs instead of 3.5mm. The Blackbird had noticeably weaker and a bit thinner analog output. As far as EDID, my Mac Mini does see my TV (a vintage Panasonic plasma) rather than the extractor, but MCH flacs play no problem.

I guess much will depend on audio format these de-embedders are fed with.

Personally I would be looking for any new media playback device to be able to internally transcode all audio formats to multi-channel LPCM (which is what my OPPO currently does) prior to passing via HDMI to the de-embedder.

A year or so ago I set-up my OPPO as an audio de-embedder by sending multi-channel LPCM audio to its rear input via HDMI from my Windows 10 computer... It sounded pretty good.

 

[ClassicalSurroundFan]

I guess much will depend on audio format these de-embedders are fed with.

Personally I would be looking for any new media playback device to be able to internally transcode all audio formats to multi-channel LPCM (which is what my OPPO currently does) prior to passing via HDMI to the de-embedder.

A year or so ago I set-up my OPPO as an audio de-embedder by sending multi-channel LPCM audio to its rear input via HDMI from my Windows 10 computer... It sounded pretty good.

I’m sure an oppo would be among the best hdmi extractors one could have. I should also specify that I played flac files from my Mac using Vox, which I think probably sends them out as LPCM before the de-embedder saw them.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I should also specify that I played flac files from my Mac using Vox, which I think probably sends them out as LPCM before the de-embedder saw them.

Indeed, 'lossless' FLAC is transcoded to 'lossless' LPCM prior to passing via HDMI