HD DVD: No surrender

[Chris Gerhard]

Don't you think it's a bit suspicious that all of a sudden all of these bricks are falling on Toshiba? If you don't, you have blue blinders on.

Most retail stores I know try and sell whatever they can that makes them money. I don't recall press releases and formal announcements from retail stores and music rental places when they stopped selling SACDs and DVD-Audios.

There is more to this crap than meets the eye.

As I have said time and time again, I have no problem with one format "winning". I would have preferred that the winner be decided by the product, not the, uh-hem, "marketing".

No, I am surprised so many retail outlets carried two tiny niche formats for so long. It must have been terribly difficult to try and sell Blu-ray with HD DVD right beside it and vice versa. I always expect retailers to take steps that help to make profits. There are no examples of any consumer audio video format type where the market can sustain two formats. The result this time was confusion and reluctance by consumers to get involved and having the redundant formats next to each other at Best Buy doesn't work.

Now Best Buy will promote Blu-ray over HD DVD and hope that Blu-ray can ride the great success that HDTV enjoys. Blu-ray won't cause anybody to buy an HDTV, but once they own one, Blu-ray will be considered and now that the format war is over, Blu-ray has a chance.

There isn't anything complicated about the fact the market can't sustain two formats. Consumers want rental stores to carry the format and want all releases to be available on the format and want friends and family to own the format and want the format to survive. As long as both exist, nobody could be comfortable with any of it. I bought both formats over a year ago and believe Blu-ray makes the most sense so this is great news in my opinion.

Warner, Netflix, Blockbuster, Best Buy, you name it, they don't want to mess with two formats. This isn't exactly rocket science. It is just simple business. I believe Toshiba wanted to crap on the HD disc market to sustain the huge DVD royalties and had to have known going in that a format with one standalone player manufacturer and such little support from software providers wasn't going to win this format war. A result of two tiny niche formats would have been a win from Toshiba's standpoint, not from mine. I am glad Toshiba is having the plug pulled for them, I know they aren't going to do it voluntarily.

Chris

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Excuse the off-topic question but I see this mentioned a lot in these types of discussions: what exactly are "interactive" menus? I thought any menu was inherently interactive.

They are talking about the special features that can be accessed from the menu with the new Blu-ray Discs and new players. Blu-ray profile 1.0 players can not access the Bonus View features and will not be able to access the interactive web based features that are coming soon and may even be available on some recent releases already. Profile 1.1 players handle the Bonus View (PIP primarily) and Profile 2.0 players will handle Bonus View plus internet interactive features plus everything else accessible from the menus.

I know both sides have touted these interactive features, but I am waiting for evidence it will have any significant market. The fact HD DVD with HDi could do it and Blu-ray with Java couldn't yet and despite that Blu-ray outsells HD DVD by a huge margin everywhere seems to indicate to me that the market isn't excited about it, at least not yet. I know I am not excited about it and haven't used any of it with my HD DVD player or PS3. If I can remember, I will take a look at some of it soon, just so I can discuss it.

Chris

 

[Frantic]

Either that or the $99 pricing clears out the HD-DVD players in the Toshiba warehouses.

I'll be convinced Toshiba is serious about continuing when they introduce some new HD-DVD models for 2008.

Aha!!!
That was my first thought when prices fell to the floor!

I have been tempted but I still have not taken a bite out of either apple.

Time is on my side here.
I have always thought that it is about the music. Videos/Movies did not matter much. Now, I seem to have collected many music video concerts in DTS and other surround formats that a cleaned up video (Upconverted) might be nice. I will wait for a player that will do all of this for prior and future purchases.

 

[atrocity]

There are no examples of any consumer audio video format type where the market can sustain two formats.

I think you can make the case that historically someone always triumphs, but there are certainly cases of multiple formats surviving for years. When I was a kid, it wasn't impossible to go into a store and be able to buy the same album on vinyl, 8-track, cassette or reel. Vinyl survives even now...maybe cassette, too--I actually haven't paid attention in years...do they still make pre-recorded cassettes?

VHS eventually won out, but Beta hung on for years.

On the other hand, there are certainly some short-lived formats such as CED and 4-track cartridges. But VHD hung on in Japan for quite a while against Laserdisc, though it never got introduced over here.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Ok, so Blu-Ray won. We get it. Nobody cares about the day to day grind about it, it's boring... :zzzzz

Why? Because there's nothing to play on them. Certainly nothing that compares to the DVD-Audio / SACD era. Where are the discs? It seems wierd for people to be into these machines without anything to play on them but retreads of regular DVD's, unless they're getting paid to talk these machines up. Many of these HD discs are poorly mastered and will have to be redone in the future as what was wrong with the first version of "Full Metal Jacket."

If Sony was smart they would rerelease some great Hi-Rez music titles on Blu-Ray, but they got their heads up their ass in that department. Oh yeah, someday they "Might" release something. So buy a player today and just hope for the best, with all their specs not there now.

Not even Disney, the bigest supporter of Blu-ray releases any of their classic cartoons on Blu-ray. The new "Aristocats" rerelease is not available on Blu-Ray. http://disney.go.com/disneyvideos/animatedfilms/aristocats/

Folks, don't be suckered into buying any of these HD formats for at least a few more years. Wait for player prices to go down (under $100) with the proper specs there and DVD-A / SACD added to these units. Wait until there's some titles worth buying and that there are plenty of them at the same price as what regular DVD is now. Vote with your walet and Do not buy anything HD unless you've got disposable income to throw away on equipment that will soon be obsolete.

 

[Manmc]

I'm afraid I too am tiring of Mr. Gerhard's 'Phase Hydra' sounding preachings/tauntings above . It will serve no purpose to respond yet the obvious gloating and unproven assumption that a ' single winner' is going to be good for all mankind I find very distasteful .

For example : " Warner, Netflix, Blockbuster, Best Buy, you name it, they don't want to mess with two formats. "

This is the same Warner that assured potential customers that their position remained unchanged and actually encouraged people to purchase specially low-priced players with confidence in Christmas week . One month later , they have decided to punish these new adopters by arbitrarily introducing a 3-4 week delay to their last HD-Dvd releases to 'punish' them for supporting the 'wrong' format . Do you really believe that everyone with a HD-Dvd player should ' go quietly into the night ' in order to somehow smooth the road to a potential total BD adoption ?? By the way BD does not = HD(tv ). High Definition will survive regardless of the method of delivery . Japanese Broadcast Tv will reach 4k resolution in less than 10 years .

" HD DVD is a joke " I agree with others' comments regarding Avs-type baiting and drumbeating . Have you watched say , 'Mutiny on the Bounty ? The Eagles Live ? The Searchers ( available almost identically on BD ) ? Transformers ? This a usual 'fanboy' trick of insinuating that all a formats' output is somehow flawed when in fact this is not true of either format.

" There isn't anything complicated about the fact the market can't sustain two formats. "

This may have been true before launch(es) but dual-format players would also automatically remove the ' lust to win concept' of certain supporters .

X-Box and PS3 ? Have these retailers suddenly decided to also drop one of these so as not to confuse the poor bunnies who may load the wrong disc in the wrong player ?

Have you examined the front page of this forum recently ? Everything from Ambisonics to HTPC to Sacd to Dvd is represented . I do not own all of these formats but I respect anybody's right to ' enjoy' any of them without having to pass a 'worthiness test ' of some kind with a perceived failure leading to sudden death by jurors from the other formats.


Enjoy whatever you watch , however you may choose to watch it and try to at least allow the rest of us that same right

~M~

 

[DaneelOlivaw]

I think you can make the case that historically someone always triumphs, but there are certainly cases of multiple formats surviving for years. When I was a kid, it wasn't impossible to go into a store and be able to buy the same album on vinyl, 8-track, cassette or reel. Vinyl survives even now...maybe cassette, too

Yes but at least those formats tried to offer something different, something its competitor didn't include.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I'm afraid I too am tiring of Mr. Gerhard's 'Phase Hydra' sounding preachings/tauntings above . It will serve no purpose to respond yet the obvious gloating and unproven assumption that a ' single winner' is going to be good for all mankind I find very distasteful .

For example : " Warner, Netflix, Blockbuster, Best Buy, you name it, they don't want to mess with two formats. "

This is the same Warner that assured potential customers that their position remained unchanged and actually encouraged people to purchase specially low-priced players with confidence in Christmas week . One month later , they have decided to punish these new adopters by arbitrarily introducing a 3-4 week delay to their last HD-Dvd releases to 'punish' them for supporting the 'wrong' format . Do you really believe that everyone with a HD-Dvd player should ' go quietly into the night ' in order to somehow smooth the road to a potential total BD adoption ?? By the way BD does not = HD(tv ). High Definition will survive regardless of the method of delivery . Japanese Broadcast Tv will reach 4k resolution in less than 10 years .

" HD DVD is a joke " I agree with others' comments regarding Avs-type baiting and drumbeating . Have you watched say , 'Mutiny on the Bounty ? The Eagles Live ? The Searchers ( available almost identically on BD ) ? Transformers ? This a usual 'fanboy' trick of insinuating that all a formats' output is somehow flawed when in fact this is not true of either format.

" There isn't anything complicated about the fact the market can't sustain two formats. "

This may have been true before launch(es) but dual-format players would also automatically remove the ' lust to win concept' of certain supporters .

X-Box and PS3 ? Have these retailers suddenly decided to also drop one of these so as not to confuse the poor bunnies who may load the wrong disc in the wrong player ?

Have you examined the front page of this forum recently ? Everything from Ambisonics to HTPC to Sacd to Dvd is represented . I do not own all of these formats but I respect anybody's right to ' enjoy' any of them without having to pass a 'worthiness test ' of some kind with a perceived failure leading to sudden death by jurors from the other formats.


Enjoy whatever you watch , however you may choose to watch it and try to at least allow the rest of us that same right

~M~

My comment HD DVD is a joke pertains to marketshare and chance for survival. HD DVD had one manufacturer and far too little software support. HD DVD has 10% of the market in Toshiba's own country. There is zero chance two formats of this type can be sustained by the market, HD DVD is absolutely redundant and offers nothing that can't be done with Blu-ray.

My statement stands, HD DVD was a joke, was DOA, stillborn or however you want to call it. Both formats are tiny niche formats so far, but Blu-ray domintates the tiny market and it won't grow much until HD DVD is gone. Warner, Netflix, Best Buy and others see this fact as well and have taken steps to pull the plug for Toshiba. I stated a year ago when HD DVD was rejected in every market, everywhere in the world that it would come to this, retailers were going to have to pull the plug for Toshiba.

If the product had been viable, other manufacturers would have joined in. It wasn't and they didn't, and you can criticize for making an observation of the obvious if you like, I don't care.

Chris

 

[elmer]

I know I don't have to read this thread, but it's like a traffic accident - can't help but to slow down and take a peak - but man, it is soooooo booorrrrinnng - let's move on and talk about some music - something which is of very short supply on either format

 

[Jens]

> Or DVD-R / DVD+R.
That one had a happy ending that I wish all the other format wars could have: As far as I can tell, you can't buy a dedicated consumer DVD-R or DVD+R drive these days. For quite a while now, everything takes either format. They both work and any worthwhile new player will accept either. People can, if they want, get excited about under-the-hood differences between the two, but people who don't care and don't want to care simply don't have to care.

Moreover, this format battle recently appeared to have got settled formally: with the DVD Forum licensing the +R/+RW standards formerly considered 'rogue' formats. See http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/28/dvd_plus_minus_war_over/

... And with the Chinese HD-DVD format CH-DVD supposedly coming up in 2008, now we'll have 3 HD formats. Perhaps many more.

More! A new one was announced just today: MV Disc.

Then there's HVD, FVD and VMD...

 

[Old Quad Guy]

More! A new one was announced just today: MV Disc.

Then there's HVD, FVD and VMD...

Great! The more the merrier...

 

[atrocity]

Yes but at least those formats tried to offer something different, something its competitor didn't include.

Well, you could make the case that 8-track and cassette offered more portability than vinyl and reel, but I'm not sure they offered something radically different from each other. Certainly all four formats carried the same program material (overlooking stuff like the 8-track version of "Pigs on the Wing").

 

[Manmc]

" My comment HD DVD is a joke pertains to marketshare and chance for survival. HD DVD had one manufacturer and far too little software support. HD DVD has 10% of the market in Toshiba's own country. There is zero chance two formats of this type can be sustained by the market, HD DVD is absolutely redundant and offers nothing that can't be done with Blu-ray.

My statement stands, HD DVD was a joke, was DOA, stillborn or however you want to call it. Both formats are tiny niche formats so far, but Blu-ray domintates the tiny market and it won't grow much until HD DVD is gone. Warner, Netflix, Best Buy and others see this fact as well and have taken steps to pull the plug for Toshiba. I stated a year ago when HD DVD was rejected in every market, everywhere in the world that it would come to this, retailers were going to have to pull the plug for Toshiba.

If the product had been viable, other manufacturers would have joined in. It wasn't and they didn't, and you can criticize for making an observation of the obvious if you like, I don't care.

Chris "

I think we should agree to disagree . You think Hd-Dvd is a joke , I think ( all versions so far of ) Blu-ray are a joke . BD wasn't good enough to actually win the war in any Profile so far , so they bought Warner , who had explicitly said they would not change their position so 'letting the consumer decide ' never really decided the outcome . If HD is such a joke , how come the mighty Blu didnt finish the war earlier ? It could only manage 2/1 sales .

I agree with you about there not being enough HD manufacturers . I , however , find that quite suspicious that so many companies , which supposedly exist to make profits have not manufactured in either format . In Blu they trusted , even in the Profile 1.0 / Mpeg2 days apparently @:

Joe Kane of Video Essentials fame, said that the difference between Hd-dvd and Blu-ray was that Bluray was more about 'greed' . I agree with him , you obviously don't . Fair enough . Its all about opinion .

Personally , I think some of your comments are so excessively Blu they even offend 'Purple People ' who bought into both formats and could care less who won the war because they 50% doomed anyway .

Now I think we should return everyone to their normal viewing . No war-winning is likely here .

I'm going into a corner to bemoan the faulty jewelcase that has been scratching my 'Rumour and Sigh' Dvd-a into near unplayability on most tracks

Maybe it'll come out again on Blu-ray Audio in about 8 years

Ciao!

~M~

 

[elmer]

One would think that with all the attention given to both of these formats (I myself a proud owner of the HD A30), there would be some solid anticipation of discrete audio titles in either HD or BD. With the sole exception of Alexander Jero - who deserves credit for being the first and only, every one of the very few "music" titles are repurposed concert DVDs - which to my ears sound exactly like the original DVD - with a slightly sharper video presentation.

While it would be great if some established artists/labels would record new discrete surround titles specifically to take advantage of the new formats, it is just not gonna happen - and why would it? The majors are so down and out right now that they can't even deal with standard CD's as a viable format.

This whole thread is moot. I have more faith in the few DVD A's and SACD titles that trickle out from time to time. My surround fix is being sated (only partially) by some of the very well recorded, and in many instances, discrete DVD V live music concerts - and even those are beginning to dry up - and of course, my HD A30 makes for an excellent DVD player

 

[buc18]

"Folks, don't be suckered into buying any of these HD formats for at least a few more years. Wait for player prices to go down (under $100) with the proper specs there and DVD-A / SACD added to these units. Wait until there's some titles worth buying and that there are plenty of them at the same price as what regular DVD is now. Vote with your walet and Do not buy anything HD unless you've got disposable income to throw away on equipment that will soon be obsolete."

This is one "sucker" who has a HD and Blu-ray player and I am enjoying every minute of it. Who knows what the future holds in the next few years, but for the time being I can sit back and watch my movies in all their hi-def glory. I don't worry about regretting having bought into these formats, I just enjoy what I have in the present

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Cool. So am I. I just bought a NIN HD-DVD.

Like what has been mentioned, for less than $500 you can now own both formats. But for many people they can't afford it now. And believe it or not, many people don’t care about either formats. Certainly no one should listen to me if they want to enjoy HD in whatever format they choose. With 7 free discs and an upscaling DVD player that plays HD-DVD for under $150, that’s not a bad deal. When Blu-ray offer’s the same deal with its specs right, I will consider it with an open mind.

One good thing about the HD disc era is that it should force the movie studios to go back to their original source materials and restore the original film materials to preserve movies for many years and give us great sound and picture quality. And it will be a good thing when DVD-A / SACD is added to Hi-def units. Perhaps we might get Hi-Def, Hi-Rez music titles that are comparable to DVD-A / SACD. It would be cool if we had a disc that had the original Stereo / Quadraphonic / DVD-Audio / SACD mixes and maybe even anther new one all on one disc. But until this actually, really happens, it’s all “pie in the sky” guessing what “Might” happen.

Many are sick of people fighting over the two formats like over at the AVS board and other places. And the funny thing is, people are getting upset over the players and what they do or don’t do, but no one’s thought about what’s really available out there in terms of new HD discs, which is hardly anything. Certainly there’s enough titles to dazzle the eyes and have some fun with it, but we’re still only talking about a certain amount in the hundreds or so titles for either format. Many Hi-Def titles are retreads of regular DVD with inferior sound and picture and will need to be redone as what has already occurred. Or they are not that much better than the standard DVD format. And unless you have a fairly large HDTV, one does not see all that much more than what regular DVD still gives you just fine. Especially since regular DVD has been mastered for many years now to give you a widescreen picture on HDTV.

Where are the titles? It seems strange for any HD format to try to “win” without a flood of titles. Many of the big studios still don’t release all their new releases on any HD formats. And whichever format “wins,” that is if there are not two big losers, will then need to compete with regular DVD, which people overwhelming prefer now. Perhaps next Christmas will look better with more of everything for less $$$.

I’m bummed the new “Aristocats” movie is not on any HD format.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Maybe not too much fight left in Toshiba according to this article. Thomas K. Arnold is the publisher of Home Media Magazine and not one to put his name on wild rumors based on what I have seen from his publication.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ib77125d96b22e86027d0bfb0c25aa58d

Chris

 

[Old Quad Guy]

If true, that's fine. Then you'll be able to dance on it's grave.

But I doubt there will be a flood of Blu-ray sales until they get the price for players down below $200 with all its specs right. And titles, there needs to be a flood of great titles for not that much more than regular DVD.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

If true, that's fine. Then you'll be able to dance on it's grave.

But I doubt there will be a flood of Blu-ray sales until they get the price for players down below $200 with all its specs right. And titles, there needs to be a flood of great titles for not that much more than regular DVD.

I don't think they can get player prices to $200 yet, maybe next year. Blu-ray is better than DVD, costs much more to make and worth more but I understand that not everybody is willing to pay for it. It won't catch DVD no matter what, but if HD DVD can get out of the way it will do better than it has, I think a lot better. The software selection isn't very good yet, I can't disagree but at about 500 titles, it at least has a start.

Chris

 

[JonUrban]

If this is true, an end to the format war is a good thing. It's a shame that the people who bought the drives, the laptops, the players and the software are the only ones who will end up getting burned. And the kicker is, the format that is not yet "ready" is going to be the "winner". Most folks who bought Blu, including me, will end up having to buy NEW BD players in a year or so, so again, everyone will lose something.

Let's hope Sony does not see this as the way of the future in new product development and that they don't take advantage of the situation they may now find themselves in.


NOW - Let's get some freaking surround sound shit out there folks!