SACD Player Recommendation

[Saucerful]

Forgive me, I'm a bit of a newb, but I'm looking for a cheap SACD player. If there's a reasonably priced SACD/DVD-A combo then that would be ideal but SACD is the crucial format.

I know this is probably sacrilege to many of you, but right now I'm just using the Logitech Z-5500 5.1 system, but at least it does have a 6-channel direct analog input. I have a PS3 too, but it's the 40GB model so it doesn't support SACD. This is mildly annoying, but knowing the PS3 won't pass through DSD over HDMI and there's no 6-channel analog output leads me to believe I'd want a proper SACD player anyway.

So I have these hybrid SACDs here collecting dust... I'd like to be able to hear some of my fave albums in 5.1. Any suggestions on a player that's decent? Again, I don't need anything fancy sound-wise, just something that's got 6-channel analog out and that's not gonna break.

 

[DennisMabry]

Saucerful,

There is the Pioneer Elite DV-48 to consider for $99.88 (With free shipping).

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/486974189/pioneer-dv-48av?s_c=site_search

another inexpensive universal player would be an Oppo. The 980H ($169.00) has analog 7.1-channel surround outputs and is compatible with 5.1-channel. It also has HDCD and plays PAL DVD's. It converts the DSD to PCM for SACD playback, so if that is a problem for you may want to look for a more expensive player. (I'm not sure if the Pioneer converts the DSD to PCM or not, perhaps someone else can chime in here.)

http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/dv980h_features.asp

The only hitches with the 980H are that some folks around here have experienced some playback issues. However with the firmware upgrades most issues have been resolved.

http://oppodigital.com/dv980h/dv980h-firmware-19-0722.html


Oppo is scheduled to release a new BD player (maybe January ?) that supposedly does it all BD, SACD, DVD-A, DVD-V, CD... but I'm sure the price will be in the $400.00 and up range. We'll see.


Dennis

 

[Saucerful]

Wow. That Oppo is VERY impressive. Most of the playback issues don't really affect me since I'd be using 6-channel direct, but even so, the firmware issues seem to sort all that out. I have a question though: there's one on eBay I'm looking at. By the seller's wording, I feel the firmware may be hacked. Is it an issue to overwrite a hacked firmware with an official one?

But all in all, that Oppo looks like it's for me. Between the PS3 and the Oppo, I'd be able to play just about anything. Not HD-DVD of course but I shan't be needing that

Other than those things mentioned on the firmware update page though, what sort of playback issues have people been experiencing?

 

[Saucerful]

Actually I've just found a retailer here in my city that has the Pioneer in stock. I'd feel more comfortable buying new where I can return if something goes wrong. Looks like quite the good player too, claims to have excellent PAL to NTSC conversion too which will be nice for the odd few import movies I have.

*edit* If that doesn't pan out, looks like Vanns is out because they don't ship to Canada. Also, nice avatar with the WYWH art. Let's hope the SACD comes out eventually.

 

[DennisMabry]

Actually I've just found a retailer here in my city that has the Pioneer in stock. I'd feel more comfortable buying new where I can return if something goes wrong. Looks like quite the good player too, claims to have excellent PAL to NTSC conversion too which will be nice for the odd few import movies I have.

Good luck with the Pioneer. It is quite the bargain and also a great looking player.

*edit* If that doesn't pan out, looks like Vanns is out because they don't ship to Canada. Also, nice avatar with the WYWH art. Let's hope the SACD comes out eventually.

I'm not holding my breath!

Dennis

 

[Saucerful]

Well, if I've done my homework correctly, there were only 2 of these Pioneer Elites left in the city - 1 factory fresh, and 1 display model. I bought the boxed one. I won't have a chance to hook it up and test it for a week or so, but I read a PDF manual over pretty thoroughly and it does everything I need it to. So I'm sure I'll be happy with this player unless of course something is internally broken.

So, thank you Dennis, for answering as soon as you did. If you hadn't, I probably would've been too late, and I might not have myself this nice SACD/DVD-A player.

 

[dobyblue]

The Pioneer DV-48 is a great player for $99.
The only difference I can see between it and the Oppo is PAL>NTSC on the fly.
I got the Oppo first, I returned it and got the Pioneer because of the price. It replaced my Elite DV-45a.

Now I'm using DSD directly out through HDMI.

 

[Saucerful]

As far as I can tell so far, my Pioneer is converting PAL to NTSC just fine. Discs need to be Region 0 of course, but that isn't hard to arrange.

I do seem to be having a little trouble with my SACD playback though. I tried using 6-channel analog direct to my speaker system, and my subwoofer doesn't seem to be doing much of anything. I made sure all the speakers were set to "small" and the subwoofer set to "on" in the Pioneer's settings but the results are still not satisfactory. I even tried comparing inputs with a THX Optimode DVD, switching between digital coax and 6-channel analog and there's a very noticeable difference in the bass output (i.e.: coax is satisfactory, analog is not). Any suggestions there? SACD is kind of the reason I bought the player so if I can't play it back properly my options are, I guess replace my whole sound system with new speakers and an HDMI receiver with DSD, or return the player.

 

[e:leaf]

As far as I can tell so far, my Pioneer is converting PAL to NTSC just fine. Discs need to be Region 0 of course, but that isn't hard to arrange.

I do seem to be having a little trouble with my SACD playback though. I tried using 6-channel analog direct to my speaker system, and my subwoofer doesn't seem to be doing much of anything. I made sure all the speakers were set to "small" and the subwoofer set to "on" in the Pioneer's settings but the results are still not satisfactory. I even tried comparing inputs with a THX Optimode DVD, switching between digital coax and 6-channel analog and there's a very noticeable difference in the bass output (i.e.: coax is satisfactory, analog is not). Any suggestions there? SACD is kind of the reason I bought the player so if I can't play it back properly my options are, I guess replace my whole sound system with new speakers and an HDMI receiver with DSD, or return the player.

Look in the settings for a bass enhancement mode of some kind. My Denon does the same thing; if I don't have the bass enhancement turned on, I get zero bass from the analog outputs.

I'm sure that your player will be in different terminology than mine, but take a look at all of the settings.

 

[dobyblue]

I haven't looked for bass settings on the DV-48 as I'm using DSD out through HDMI, but when I had the DV-45a I had my subwoofer output on the Pioneer set to +6dB and the output on my receiver for MULTI CHANNEL IN (it was a Pioneer VSX-1014TX at the time) set to +6dB for output.

If you start using bass management I believe you incur a PCM conversion. Level adjusting, you do not.

 

[Saucerful]

I'm able to boost my subwoofer volume on the receiver side but the trouble is, I'm not getting hardly anything to boost. How might I go about boosting it from the Pioneer side? Like I said, I tried switching all speakers to "small" but that did nothing.

 

[e:leaf]

I've looked through the manual for your player, and other than making sure that you have your subwoofer set to "On" and that you are set to 5.1 output, I can't say. My Denon has a menu specifically made to boost the bass output. With it off, I get almost no bass (definitely not enough for a satisfactory experience). With it on, I have audio bliss.

Sorry I couldn't help more.

 

[e:leaf]

Another though I have is that you might be able to boost the bass signal in your AV Receiver. What receiver are you using? Some have the option to boost the bass signal by as much as 15 db. Perhaps this might help with your issue.

 

[Saucerful]

It's not much of a "receiver" at all, I'm afraid. It's a set of Logitech Z-5500 speakers, with a built in receiver. They're decent for what I got them for, but they're temporary. Obviously, they aren't high end and I know it. I find them quite mid-heavy and the overall fidelity isn't even close to that of my Sennheiser headphones. I'm likely moving away after this school year and at some point, I'll be getting a dedicated HDMI receiver and set of speakers.

So I'm not totally broken up about this since I know the DV-48 is a good player for the price and it seems to handle my PAL discs which I've previously been unable to play other than on my computer. Pity is though I just bought a couple SACD's that I won't be able to play properly for another year or more if I can't get this working. Of course, I could always commit sacrilege and run the SACD hi-res stereo mix through the Dolby PLII decoder, but even a newb like me knows that completely defeats the point of SACD, not to mention interrupting the analog chain.

So, for future reference, whenever I end up getting my HDMI receiver, does the DV-48 truly pass through DSD over HDMI? My manual says yes, but are there any crucial settings to stay away from that might cause unwanted DSD to PCM conversion?

 

[e:leaf]

It's not much of a "receiver" at all, I'm afraid. It's a set of Logitech Z-5500 speakers, with a built in receiver. They're decent for what I got them for, but they're temporary. Obviously, they aren't high end and I know it. I find them quite mid-heavy and the overall fidelity isn't even close to that of my Sennheiser headphones. I'm likely moving away after this school year and at some point, I'll be getting a dedicated HDMI receiver and set of speakers.

So I'm not totally broken up about this since I know the DV-48 is a good player for the price and it seems to handle my PAL discs which I've previously been unable to play other than on my computer. Pity is though I just bought a couple SACD's that I won't be able to play properly for another year or more if I can't get this working. Of course, I could always commit sacrilege and run the SACD hi-res stereo mix through the Dolby PLII decoder, but even a newb like me knows that completely defeats the point of SACD, not to mention interrupting the analog chain.

So, for future reference, whenever I end up getting my HDMI receiver, does the DV-48 truly pass through DSD over HDMI? My manual says yes, but are there any crucial settings to stay away from that might cause unwanted DSD to PCM conversion?

After having read through the manual a bit, I noticed that the sound from DVD-A and SACD is down sampled when run through HDMI. I would recommend using the 5.1 analog connections from the player to the receiver so that you get the full fidelity from your DVD-A and SACD discs. Copy protection can also be a problem.

•My AV receiver is definitely compatible with
96 kHz/88.2 kHz Linear PCM audio, but it
doesn’t seem to work with this player.
What’s wrong?

For digital copy-protection purposes, some
96 kHz/88.2 kHz DVD discs only output
digital audio downsampled to 48 kHz/
44.1 kHz. This is not a malfunction.
To fully take advantage of the high
sampling rate audio, connect the analog
audio outputs to your amplifier/receiver.

•Why can’t I hear SACD audio through the
digital outputs?

SACD digital audio is only available
through the HDMI outputs when
connected to an HDMI-compatible amp
that can handle protected audio contents.
Some DVD-Audio discs too only output
audio through the analog outputs.

Though this is a Universal player, it seems that one can only use it optimally as an audio player, or a video player and not necessarily both simultaneously. Perhaps there are ways around this limitation, (using the analog outputs for audio and HDMI for video), but I'm not sure.

My Denon is hooked up to my Onkyo AVR via component video cables and the 5.1 analog audio cables. I use it solely as an audio player, thus I have chosen analog so that I don't have to deal with any downsampling of my precious SS audio. Any video DVDs get played via my Blu-Ray player which has video upconversion (though it doesn't matter all that much as my 1080p projector will also upconvert any video signal it receives).

Hope this helps.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

After having read through the manual a bit, I noticed that the sound from DVD-A and SACD is down sampled when run through HDMI. I would recommend using the 5.1 analog connections from the player to the receiver so that you get the full fidelity from your DVD-A and SACD discs. Copy protection can also be a problem.

Can you provide a reference for this? Does it apply to both DSD and PCM output?

Though this is a Universal player, it seems that one can only use it optimally as an audio player, or a video player and not necessarily both simultaneously. Perhaps there are ways around this limitation, (using the analog outputs for audio and HDMI for video), but I'm not sure.

Again, I do not see any justification for this. The limitation on some DVD-As is dictated by the disc manufacturer, not the player.

I've used the DV-58 and the Oppo players without encountering any problems.

Kal

 

[e:leaf]

Can you provide a reference for this? Does it apply to both DSD and PCM output?

I thought I did when I made sure that the original poster was "Page 26 of the DV-48AV User Manual". I'm not sure what else you want more than a quote straight from the manual. Though apparently I did miss part of the FAQ on the same page.

•Is it better to listen to DVD-Audio discs
through the analog outputs?

Some DVD-Audio discs do not output
anything through the digital outputs, and
multichannel discs are downmixed to
stereo for the digital output. In addition,
high sampling rate DVD-Audio discs
(higher than 96 kHz) automatically
downsample audio output from the digital
outputs.

Using the multichannel analog audio
outputs for DVD-Audio have none of these
limitations.

Apparently either this player has this particular limitation, or you are not aware that yours does too. I don't know whether mine does, because I have mine hooked via to the 5.1 analog cables. I never even considered HDMI because I knew that there were sometimes problems when playing DVD-A and SACD discs via HDMI.

Again, I do not see any justification for this. The limitation on some DVD-As is dictated by the disc manufacturer, not the player.

I've used the DV-58 and the Oppo players without encountering any problems.


Kal

Perhaps you didn't encounter these issues because you were using different products, or perhaps you have encountered this problem and are simply unaware of it. You'll need to take this up with Pioneer, not me. I'm just the messenger, messenging straight from the manual. I have no way to test the accuracy of the instruction booklet.

EDIT: Perhaps my original post was a bit unclear. Essentially, any DVD-A/V content that is 96 kHz or more will automatically be downsampled (not everything as the post might be interpreted). Also, if the right (wrong?) copy protection is enabled, any mix that is multi-channel will be downmixed to stereo (super bummer). This doesn't happen to all discs (in fact in may not happen to many at all). And if the super-right (ultra-wrong) copy protection is used, you won't get any sound at all.

I was simply stating that using analog cables, rather than HDMI, would circumvent any issues that one might have with the audio portion of the player due to copy protection schemes of DVD-A and SACD. I wasn't meaning it to be a universal statement which concerns all discs, all the time.

 

[dobyblue]

No it does not downsample DVD-A or SACD at all using HDMI output. You can't downsample DSD natively anyway, you'd have to convert to PCM first.

The DV-48 supports true DSD output through HDMI and 24/192 2.0 and 24/96 5.1 output for MLP/PCM.

The part of the manual you're referring to is talking about the digital coaxial or optical outputs. I have tested the 24/192 output with the REM "Out of Time" DVD+CD package and when you press the display on the receiver it states that it is receiving 2.0 PCM 192kHz.

The HDMI connection is compatible with 2-channel linear PCM signals (44.1 kHz to 192 kHz, 16 bit/20 bit/24 bit), and Dolby Digital, DTS, MPEG audio bitstream, multi channel DSD, and multi channel linear PCM signals, (5.1 channel signals up to 96 kHz, 16 bit/20 bit/24 bit).

If you choose PCM over SACD for HDMI you get 24/88.2 decimation. The PS3 does 24/176.4 decimation.

I know with the Oppo if you have it set to 480i/p it won't bitstream DSD as the reserved bandwidth for audio is dependant on the resolution set, so you should keep it at 1080i or 1080p. I don't know if the DV-48 is the same way.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I thought I did when I made sure that the original poster was "Page 26 of the DV-48AV User Manual". I'm not sure what else you want more than a quote straight from the manual. Though apparently I did miss part of the FAQ on the same page.



Apparently either this player has this particular limitation, or you are not aware that yours does too. I don't know whether mine does, because I have mine hooked via to the 5.1 analog cables. I never even considered HDMI because I knew that there were sometimes problems when playing DVD-A and SACD discs via HDMI.




Perhaps you didn't encounter these issues because you were using different products, or perhaps you have encountered this problem and are simply unaware of it. You'll need to take this up with Pioneer, not me. I'm just the messenger, messenging straight from the manual. I have no way to test the accuracy of the instruction booklet.

EDIT: Perhaps my original post was a bit unclear. Essentially, any DVD-A/V content that is 96 kHz or more will automatically be downsampled (not everything as the post might be interpreted). Also, if the right (wrong?) copy protection is enabled, any mix that is multi-channel will be downmixed to stereo (super bummer). This doesn't happen to all discs (in fact in may not happen to many at all). And if the super-right (ultra-wrong) copy protection is used, you won't get any sound at all.

I was simply stating that using analog cables, rather than HDMI, would circumvent any issues that one might have with the audio portion of the player due to copy protection schemes of DVD-A and SACD. I wasn't meaning it to be a universal statement which concerns all discs, all the time.

I do admit that I have not used the DV-48 but there is similar language in the DV-58 manual, as well as the manuals for many players. It generally applies to the coax/optical digital outputs although it is written poorly. The limitations of the coax/optical digital outputs are long-standing and common to almost all players. What the new players can do via HDMI is quite different.

So, while I cannot be 100% certain that the DV-48 will follow suit, the output via HDMI (of comparable HDMI-enabled universal players) is not downsampled as long as the video resolution is set to 720p or higher (whether or not a display is connected).

Kal

 

[Saucerful]

Indeed, whenever the manual refers to "digital outputs" it is referring to S/PDIF and not HDMI. Even though we know HDMI is digital. Poor choice of words, I guess.