Involve CD4....Is there any life in it????

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Thanks BBQ (is than an acceptable monikor? Cool acronym anyway:). I'll start researching that CD4 unit. Can you tell me what you personally like about it and what others you've compared it too?

Tackling the tt / cartridges part of the equation is my next project;
I'm leaning between something like a Marantz 6300 (which I can easily exchange headshell a with different cartridges)

Or (and this may be too much effort : reward

A B&O 4002 or 6000 with either built in cd4 decoder (haven't read they work that great ;( ) or a standard 4002 with sibata cartridge feeding a decoder. Of course B&O dosen't make cartridge swapping easy etc.

I'm open for suggestions if there are other strong recommendations for tt / cartridges set up. I'm also researching as much here as possible this site has a wealth of info.

Thanks again
 
Tubelicious said:
I'm in the same boat... What CD4 decoder have you settled on? I'm leaning towards the Marantz cd400 (more so to match my amp than performance...). Is there a consensus for the best one out there? Or is it all variable?

Quad newbie, trying his best to measure 3 times and cut once, thanks!
Click to expand...

Ship Ahoy, sailor! :p

Well, I've not settled on anything, I'm just as much a newbie to it all as you!

Tbh I'm doing pretty much what I did last year with SQ and QS and picking up CD-4 records as I find them for reasonable money in decent shape.. and hopefully things will fall into place from there (or not as the case may be! :yikes )

If I can find any fully-functioning CD-4 demodulator for not much money in the UK or Europe I'll probably go for it (I do need to get a new turntable also as my old one is kaput but the models I have my heart set on are proving impossible to find on the used market for the kind of money I want to pay in the kind of condition I would be willing to accept.. :eek: )

Best of Luck with your quest! :upthumb
 
Hi. Tubelicious & fredblue

Tubelicious said:
Thanks BBQ (is than an acceptable monikor? Cool acronym anyway:). I'll start researching that CD4 unit. Can you tell me what you personally like about it and what others you've compared it too?

Tackling the tt / cartridges part of the equation is my next project;
I'm leaning between something like a Marantz 6300 (which I can easily exchange headshell a with different cartridges)

Or (and this may be too much effort : reward

A B&O 4002 or 6000 with either built in cd4 decoder (haven't read they work that great ;( ) or a standard 4002 with sibata cartridge feeding a decoder. Of course B&O dosen't make cartridge swapping easy etc.

I'm open for suggestions if there are other strong recommendations for tt / cartridges set up. I'm also researching as much here as possible this site has a wealth of info.

Thanks again
Click to expand...

I bought one of these units about 25 years ago, they are a bit fiddly to set up.
Why there is a set up you are calibrating the cartridge to the Demod- unit once you got things just right you don`t need to do it again. I cant comment on comparing with something eels but I can say that when I got my unit going it sounded fantastic .
Here is some photos of the unit there is 2 types to look out for one is multi Voltage unit & the other is US. Voltage only but if you live in the UK. you will need a step down transformer for this US. unit..
Bill..

PS. I forgot when calibrating with this unit turn the unit onto its side to get acsess to the 30khz. screw & the CD-4 Adjusting screws at the back of the unit, with a friend how will be twiddling the screw why`ill you listen, to get the right set up..


FRONT.jpg
BACK 1.jpg
BACK 2.jpg
BOTTOM.jpg
 
Last edited:
bigbillquad said:
Hi. Tubelicious & fredblue
PS. I forgot when calibrating with this unit turn the unit onto its side to get acsess to the 30khz. screw & the CD-4 Adjusting screws at the back of the unit, with a friend how will be twiddling the screw why`ill you listen, to get the right set up..
Click to expand...

I can't imagine why CD4 wasn't a massive success!
 
I always thought CD-4 was great. The only REAL quad LPs that actually played quad almost as well as a tape. Unfortunately, they were not only the most expensive LPs to manufacture, they were also the most expensive to play back so if the consumer wasn't a quad nut like me, they were not going to pay for the special cartridge, turntable, and extra piece (if it was not included in their reciever) - not to mention the extra effort required to tune that demodulator properly, and doing it by ear was and could be hit or miss.

Still, in 1973-1976 there was no decoder that could decode a matrix LP as well as a CD-4 demodulator demodulated a CD-4 LP, and it was easily demonstrated with the Project 3 albums that were available in QS, SQ, and CD-4. Eventually the CD-4 labels gave up using the really good vinyl they were supposed to use, and the results were borderline shitty. Just like DVD-A and SACD for the masses, the CD-4 for the masses was unceremoniously dropped without fanfare or announcement by most labels, even RCA, with only a few straggler Tomita releases imported from Japan making it past 1976.
 
CD4 was a clever idea that probably worked well enough in the lab with careful setting up and ideal playing conditions. Unfortunately it was borderline flaky as a real world consumer product given all of that complex analogue technology and a dependence on so many variables being ‘just right’. I always imagine the horrified reaction from the engineers when, following on from a successful lab demo to some suitably impressionable executives, they are told of the decision to market it : “ Oh f*** they’ve only gone and sold the damn thing!” I guess that from the early days even CD4’s originators knew that it wasn’t going to be a winner, so maybe that’s why, as I recall, it never got heavily marketed in Europe (apart from a bit of a push in Germany I think). Certainly in the UK it was all but invisible (noting that there were some technical articles in the likes of HFN&RR, New Scientist and Wireless World). The general public were only barely aware of SQ or QS let alone CD4 and I don’t ever remember seeing a CD4 LP in any record shop. To this day the only CD4 I’ve ever owned is the one in my HFN&RR “Quadraphile” set - but I don’t feel minded to invest heavily to play it back!
 
The biggest thing about CD-4 was its full compatibility* with stereo. It is not hard to imagine a world where many Lps are CD-4 (huge royalties) and consumers could take advantage of the Quad capabilities or not (Best of The Doors). I'd go for that bet if I were a "suitably impressionable executive".

Lots of trouble, yes, but there was joy when everything worked perfectly (Aqualung, 461 Ocean Boulevard). Not just the music was enjoyable, but getting it to work too!

I hope the Involve demodulator includes the capability for digital input, so I'll have the motivation to set up a way to rip the albums at half-speed to digital files and play them back through it. Not for the music but for the joy of making it happen. Or better, someone to develop a fully digital workflow including ANRS.

*Not really though. The CD-4 albums are cut at a reduced level to keep the minimum radius large enough, i.e. more noise.
 
proufo said:
Not just the music was enjoyable, but getting it to work too!
Click to expand...

Therein lay the problem of course. Only nerds like us found getting such things to work enjoyable - Mr. & Mrs. Joe Public would (understandably) run a mile from such a product, as indeed they did!
 
J
chucky3042 said:
Hi Fred

Not yet we are still working on both the headphone surround and the pre amp.....and the 2 speaker surround Y2. Next will be the CD4. It will happen, its just hard to give a date at the moment.

Regards

Chucky
Click to expand...

Hallo Chucky,
I'm glad to hear the preamp is still in the agenda. Could you give a date, when this unit would become available?
Regards
Charles
 
J
chucky3042 said:
Hi Fred

Not yet we are still working on both the headphone surround and the pre amp.....and the 2 speaker surround Y2. Next will be the CD4. It will happen, its just hard to give a date at the moment.

Regards

Chucky
Click to expand...

Hallo Chucky,
I'm glad to hear the preamp is still in the agenda. Could you give a date, when this unit would become available?
Regards
Charles
 
proufo said:
I hope the Involve demodulator includes the capability for digital input, so I'll have the motivation to set up a way to rip the albums at half-speed to digital files and play them back through it. Not for the music but for the joy of making it happen. Or better, someone to develop a fully digital workflow including ANRS.
Click to expand...

Pablo,
I hate to rain on your parade but I am almost certain that not only will an Involve CD-4 demodulatorr NOT have either digital inputs or outputs but it will look exactly like the Surround Master and may even be called the Surround Master CD-4 Edition.
If you read Chucky's posts, it is clear that the only way Involve can produce a CD-4 demodulator in an economically feasible way is to develop a software CD-4 demodulating algorithm that is completely compatible with the Surround Master hardware and can be burned into the decoding chip used in the Surround Master without requiring any modifications to the Surround Master hardware.

This is understandable when you consider that Chucky indicated that the Surround Master wasn't the commercial success that Involve had hoped for. They didn't sell as many directly via their website as anticipated and were unable to interest their dealer network in carrying them. As a result they have an inventory of Surround Master parts ( PC boards, Cases, chips etc ) which they have invested a great deal of time and money in developing and manufacturing which are not generating a return on their investment. By just investing additional time in CD-4 software development they can capitalize on their current hardware inventory without having to expend additional funds on designing and manufacturing new or modified hardware.

Because the Surround Master is designed to use two identical switchable decoding chips ( with your choice of 2 channel and Involve or Involve and SQ ) there is the possibility that they could produce a Surround Master with both CD-4 and SQ ).
We'll all have to wait and see.
Al
 
Last edited:
Soundfield said:
..... I don’t ever remember seeing a CD4 LP in any record shop......
Click to expand...

I only ever saw them in Spillers Records in Cardiff when at Uni 1976-79, and they were way too expensive (so I stuck with SQ) I just used to drool at the CD4 titles available! ..... Doobies, Jefferson Starship, Joni Mitchell......
 
BigAlt said:
Pablo,
I hate to rain on your parade but I am almost certain that not only will an Involve CD-4 demodulatorr NOT have either digital inputs or outputs but it will look exactly like the Surround Master and may even be called the Surround Master CD-4 Edition.
Click to expand...
Hello BigAlt.

It could be the case that two boxes are required, one for a phono preamp and a second for the DSP hardware that might be similar to the one for the SM, hopefully at 24/96 (it's the 21st Century!). I find hard to believe that it could be done by feeding a phono signal directly into the DSP box.

If that is the case, I guess it is feasible that the DSP box could have a digital input that would accept signals similar to the ones that will be derived from the phono preamp, say two AM and two FM. That would open the possibility of optimizing the rips, for better results.

Even if the Surround Master CD-4 Edition does not include its own phono section but receives a line-level signal from a regular phono preamp (user's), this scheme may be feasible.
 
Hey Big Alt

You stole my thunder!!! Well done.

Regards

Chucky

BigAlt said:
Pablo,
I hate to rain on your parade but I am almost certain that not only will an Involve CD-4 demodulatorr NOT have either digital inputs or outputs but it will look exactly like the Surround Master and may even be called the Surround Master CD-4 Edition.
If you read Chucky's posts, it is clear that the only way Involve can produce a CD-4 demodulator in an economically feasible way is to develop a software CD-4 demodulating algorithm that is completely compatible with the Surround Master hardware and can be burned into the decoding chip used in the Surround Master without requiring any modifications to the Surround Master hardware.

This is understandable when you consider that Chucky indicated that the Surround Master wasn't the commercial success that Involve had hoped for. They didn't sell as many directly via their website as anticipated and were unable to interest their dealer network in carrying them. As a result they have an inventory of Surround Master parts ( PC boards, Cases, chips etc ) which they have invested a great deal of time and money in developing and manufacturing which are not generating a return on their investment. By just investing additional time in CD-4 software development they can capitolize on their current hardware inventory without having to expend additional funds on designing and manufacturing new or modified hardware.

Because the Surround Master is designed to use two identical switchable decoding chips ( with your choice of 2 channel and Involve or Involve and SQ ) there is the possibility that they could produce a Surround Master with both CD-4 and SQ ).
We'll all have to wait and see.
Al
Click to expand...
 
Hi Four Rules

I will reply to your question on the INVOLVE- COMING NEW TECHNOLOGY thread.

Regards

Chucky

Four Rules said:
J

Hallo Chucky,
I'm glad to hear the preamp is still in the agenda. Could you give a date, when this unit would become available?
Regards
Charles
Click to expand...
 
Hi Chucky,

if you have further on the intention for a visite in Germany, don't forget a trip to hamburg for listening first class CD-4 with my set. As we have writtn some times before. That may help to make you a lot more "addicted" for CD-4l sound from records. On the other hand I understand - a new demodulator must have a financal balance for you. In time of Lou Dorren there was around 150 interested fans. But unfortunately he has waited too long for finishing his development. Now the involve demodulator may be the last chance. But I am further on not understanding, how this should work by demodulating.
 
Hi Quadro Action

I think I will be travelling to USA, Japan, Europe and UK in October and I will let the QQ forum know before I leave. I would love to visit you if I am in the area. I really love Germany, one of my favourite countries.

regards

Chucky

Quadro-Action said:
Hi Chucky,

if you have further on the intention for a visite in Germany, don't forget a trip to hamburg for listening first class CD-4 with my set. As we have writtn some times before. That may help to make you a lot more "addicted" for CD-4l sound from records. On the other hand I understand - a new demodulator must have a financal balance for you. In time of Lou Dorren there was around 150 interested fans. But unfortunately he has waited too long for finishing his development. Now the involve demodulator may be the last chance. But I am further on not understanding, how this should work by demodulating.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Chucky again,

if there would be really a possibility for a visite in Northern Germany (Hamburg), then please send me a few days before a PM.

Dietrich
 
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