DSD flaws?

[bearcatsandor]

Hey folks,

I have an SACD question. Please let me state first that it is not my intention to start a SACD v.s. DVD-Audio/DSD-PCM war.

I have heard it said that DSD has an inherent flaw in that the advanced resolution deteriorates at higher frequencies. Also any EQ done has to be done in PCM, so you loose resolution when you go from DSD -> PCM -> DSD again.

Is this true?


Bearcat M. Sandor

 

[JonUrban]

Have not heard this one before. Could be one of those "internet rumours".

:-jon

 

[bmoura]

Have not heard this one before. Could be one of those "internet rumours".
:-jon

It's been around before. These days one can indeed do EQ and other processing on DSD masters in the DSD realm if desired.

 

[bearcatsandor]

That's good to know.

Regarding my first question, I think I'm talking about the way DSD pushes distortion into the uppper band to make it inaudible. But it creates this distortion itself, right?

Is this a problem? Is it truely inaudible? If you have and equipment that is highly sensitive and reveals the upper frequency range won't this be a prob? To what range does it push it?

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Bearcat

It's been around before. These days one can indeed do EQ and other processing on DSD masters in the DSD realm if desired.

 

[bmoura]

That's good to know.

Regarding my first question, I think I'm talking about the way DSD pushes distortion into the uppper band to make it inaudible. But it creates this distortion itself, right?

Is this a problem? Is it truely inaudible? If you have and equipment that is highly sensitive and reveals the upper frequency range won't this be a prob? To what range does it push it?

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Bearcat

That part of the question has been debated back and forth for some time as well. The bottom line is that DSD does have its fans, as witnessed by its increasing use at the recording studio level.

See, for example, the comments about DSD by Mobile Fidelity's John Wood at http://www.hvt.nl/testartikelen.php?page=1&tid=128

 

[ssully]

That part of the question has been debated back and forth for some time as well. The bottom line is that DSD does have its fans, as witnessed by its increasing use at the recording studio level.

See, for example, the comments about DSD by Mobile Fidelity's John Wood at http://www.hvt.nl/testartikelen.php?page=1&tid=128

But then again, DSD also has its detractors; see

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

IMHO, the 'problems' some people discern with SACD or DVD-A or CD for that matter, are most likely inaudible in normal listening.

 

[bmoura]

But then again, DSD also has its detractors

True just as PCM and DVD-A has detractors. I think it's best to listen to the music and let the format debators take their discussions elsewhere !

 

[Cai Campbell]

True just as PCM and DVD-A has detractors. I think it's best to listen to the music and let the format debators take their discussions elsewhere !

Amen. Wiser words were never spoken. :worhty

 

[bearcatsandor]

Thanx folks. I appreciate your input. Those links were very informative. In the end I dont; care about formats either, except that if one looses, i don;t want a whole bunch of software that i can;t use, like my friend that has 100 betamax tapes.

Bearcat

 

[Guy Robinson]

Amen. Wiser words were never spoken. :worhty

I tried to stay out of this one as it has been debated many times in many places. In the end you have to go by your ears and with that in mind, both formats are fantastic. I have weeks were I like one format over the other. It must be the mood I am in. This week it is SACD. Last week it was DVD-A. Next week.......who knows. The point is that I like them both.

 

[ssully]

Thanx folks. I appreciate your input. Those links were very informative. In the end I dont; care about formats either, except that if one looses, i don;t want a whole bunch of software that i can;t use, like my friend that has 100 betamax tapes.

Bearcat

That strikes me as a *far* more sensible thing to worry about, than whether SACD sounds better than DVD-A sounds better than CD.

 

[rusinurbe]

Thanx folks. I appreciate your input. Those links were very informative. In the end I dont; care about formats either, except that if one looses, i don;t want a whole bunch of software that i can;t use, like my friend that has 100 betamax tapes.

Bearcat

Very true, at the moment my favoured format is DVD-A even if the DVD-A format falls by the wayside at least you can still listen to the (Albeit inferiour) DTS and DD M/C mix. If SACD falls by the wayside its back to stereo CD.

In the end will one format need to triumph though ? there are one or two multi format players on the market some at very reasonable costs the price of these has to come down as the formats become more accepted so maybe the Hardware manufacturers will be the winners in the end.( MMMM Sony again. @: )
At the moment its teh record companies dithering and moaning about copyright protection which is holding back both formats. giving the hackers/bootleggers more time to understand discect and bootleg the format when it does become more popular, which it will. Its just timescales which are slower than previous format take ups that may change all it needs is a similtanious release of a popular modern artist to do the same as Dire Straits Brothers in Arms did for CD. Its down to Record company nerve. :sun

 

[bearcatsandor]

I think what alerms me is that it may never stop. I mean there's already an SACD2 planned (which includes pictures). Will it be compatable with current players? I hope so, but what about DVD-Audio 2, 3 and SACD-HD and all the other acronyms that i could make up?

If companies keep coming out with format wars like the hi-rez dvd war we're about to have then where are we? We all loose because of their war.

pant..pant..sigh...the days of vinyl were a lot easier..

Bearcat

 

[bmoura]

I think what alerms me is that it may never stop. I mean there's already an SACD2 planned (which includes pictures). Will it be compatable with current players? I hope so, but what about DVD-Audio 2, 3 and SACD-HD and all the other acronyms that i could make up?
Bearcat

Well, video has always been part of the SACD spec. So one would expect that if that feature is now actviated, backwards compatibility would remain.

But then again, Audio Revolution quotes Sony as denying that SACD II exists. So it's a bit early to worry about that.

 

[Scottmoose]

I'm past caring / worrying, and just get on with enjoying both SACD and DVD-A. As well as redbook 16bit CD, HDCD et al.
Hmm. SACD does have an interesting little habbit -it's quite a noisy encoding process at HF, but this shouldn't affect anything as it only come ito play in harmonics way out of our hearing spectrum. Try asking your dog if they think it's distorted. Oh, but only if you've got supertweeters as a normal speaker can't reproduce these anyway -way out of its band. Anyone tried those yet? Do they work? As in, do they really work in double blind comparisons, or do you have to believe they'll work before you hear a difference? :banana:
Scott

 

[bmoura]

I'm past caring / worrying, and just get on with enjoying both SACD and DVD-A.
Scott

That's the way to go.

 

[GaryW]

I tried to stay out of this one as it has been debated many times in many places. In the end you have to go by your ears and with that in mind, both formats are fantastic. I have weeks were I like one format over the other. It must be the mood I am in. This week it is SACD. Last week it was DVD-A. Next week.......who knows. The point is that I like them both.

Ditto. I've been finding that SACD has a slightly warmer sound (at least on my system). That being the case, I enjoy jazz more on SACD and rock more on DVD-A. I prefer the sound of the DVD-A version of Machine Head over the SACD,(trying to factor out the Kellogg mix vs. the original quad), so will probably wait for the DVD-A Universal releases over the SACD on their rock releases. Just my opinion based on my system.

 

[peter gower]

But then again, DSD also has its detractors; see

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

The article sounds very convincing. I liked dvd-a better even before I read it and probably will go with dvd-a from now on only.

But again, it's my layman's opinion and it depends on the player too (I've got pioneer dvd-a/sacd player)

 

[Guy Robinson]

The article sounds very convincing. I liked dvd-a better even before I read it and probably will go with dvd-a from now on only.

But again, it's my layman's opinion and it depends on the player too (I've got pioneer dvd-a/sacd player)

I have the 45a as well. Try the new SACD of "Slow Train Coming" by Bob Dylan. This is my new favourite SACD (for this week anyway). It takes the #1 position away from Sea Change and is as good as the best that DVD-A has to offer. This from a person that started with DVD-A and did not want to go with SACD. I don't know of any DVD-A discs that give me the "smiles" more than this disc except maybe Chicago 2.