Moody Blues - DOFP/OTTOAD SACD vs Q4 - Look, Listen, Comment!

[JonUrban]

I had some time to check one of the MB SACDs and compare it to the quad reel. I found that the center and .1 channels are pretty much empty.

Also, the mix is virtually identical to the quad reels. However, there is some futzing with levels and such. One thing that I found interesting is that in places where the quad reel (MagTec) was totally free of vocal passages, the SACD had a faint vocal presence.

Here are two wav files to listen to. One is from the Q4. Listen and you will not hear the vocal at all. The other is from the SACD. Listen to the exact same passage and there is a faint vocal track.

ADDED: This is the Left Rear channel of a passage from "Dawn" Dawn is a Feeling". This part is where the lyric goes "Now that you're knowing..." The reel mp3 is a straight playback of the StereoTape Quadraphonic reel at 24/96 into my PC through the MOTU. No NR or tweaking applied.

These files are sourced from 24/96, but they're now MP3's. However, they're still pretty big, so "SORRY" to you dial-up folks!

You can listen to these right from this web page using Media Player or whatever, or you can right click and SAVE AS the files to your PC, then play them

 

[bugdaddy]

neat post, jon. so, let me ask you: for those of us who own the dts disc, would you consider this a worthwhile upgrade for the hi-rez? or is this a case where one would purchase it more for the extras/collectibility?

 

[JonUrban]

If you are an MB fan, than these are must buys for the extras. Playback on a good system in 5.1 is a quadraphonic experience. Even though the vocal bleed through displayed above is there, you really don't notice it when all 4 channels are going. Besides, it sure beats listening to the Q8!

 

[cupboy]

ADDED: This is the Left Rear channel of a passage from "Dawn" Dawn is a Feeling". This part is where the lyric goes "Now that you're knowing..." The reel mp3 is a straight playback of the StereoTape reel at 24/96 into my PC through the MOTU. No NR or tweaking applied.

By "No NR" do you mean you had the dolby switched off? Have you compared the Magtec to the Ampex?

 

[JonUrban]

No NR after recording. No Dolby for playback. Just straight playback.

I had the Ampex but eBay'd it. It sounded "flat" compared to the Magtec. I'm using a AKAI 630DSS.

Have you found the Ampex reels to be an improvement on the Magtecs? I've always thought the opposite.

 

[EMB]

Interesting....since Justin Hayward and the gang approved use of the original 4-channel Quad tapes, not much futzing could have been done anyway...and no remixing, of course. Suppose we should be glad these are available at all, and yet...not surprised the Quad reel may remain THE reference source, as it has so always been if one is available for a Quad album...

ED

 

[cupboy]

No NR after recording. No Dolby for playback. Just straight playback.

I had the Ampex but eBay'd it. It sounded "flat" compared to the Magtec. I'm using a AKAI 630DSS.

Have you found the Ampex reels to be an improvement on the Magtecs? I've always thought the opposite.

I think the Ampex reels sound fuller and less grainy than the Magtec, and they are so clean no dolby encoding was needed, although either will do just fine actually.

 

[Cai Campbell]

Wow Jon, that is very enlightening! Thanks for sharing your discovery. Do you think they purposefully cross-mixed the channels? Was the tape out of alignment? Either way, that would explain a lot of the muddied presentation I experienced when I listened to the SACD. Even in your compressed MP3 examples, the piano is absolutely anemic sounding in the SACD version compared the reel tape.

 

[ChristopherLees]

If you are an MB fan, than these are must buys for the extras. Playback on a good system in 5.1 is a quadraphonic experience. Even though the vocal bleed through displayed above is there, you really don't notice it when all 4 channels are going. Besides, it sure beats listening to the Q8!

looks good, but looking at the extra tracks on the back cover it seems that there isn't
1)the stereo single mix of "Nights in White satin" previously released on a few decca and moody blues compliations...featuring a superior wide stereo Lead vocal and no backing orchestra.
2) the single mix of "another morning" which was the b side to "Tuesday afternoon"...

minor gripes perhaps, but strange that they left them off..

is the dts cd better than the sacd ?

 

[JonUrban]

Today I spot checked "On the Threshold of a Dream". It appears that it's the same thing! Do you think they could have had an alignment issue with their playback machines??

Why would they mix an "echo vocal" into the rear channels?

Here is a section of "Dear Diary", from the passage that starts "It was cold outside of my door".

Again, the Q4 and the SACD of the rear left channel. The reel sounds much more open, as well as it is more discrete.

 

[ccm0114]

My two cents worth. I have the full set of Moody's Q4s, and I must say that when I originally bought them many, many moons ago, I noticed that my DOFP reel (DER J 17012) had a weak left rear channel. It annoyed me because all the other reels seemed evenly balanced between channels (played on a Sony TC-388-4). On just this one reel the left rear seemed very low. I just chalked it up to a poorly recorded reel. On the dts disc this channel came alive again, like I was missing something on the Q4 reel. I haven't ordered the SACDs yet until I hear from you all whether they are as good as the Q4s. I'm tired of buying new SACDs that aren't as discrete as the originals (e.g. DSOTM, Allman Bros. Eat A Peach, etc.). I also have the dts Seventh Sojourn which matches the Q4.

 

[Lucanu]

I don't know really what happened there with the SACD.
I noticed only that SACD version has a blend with the other channel (which could be related to a bad alignment of the master tapes), but, referring to the first samples SACD has less "highs" then the Q4, and I think because Q4 is Dolby B encoded. The cymbals sound about twice longer than the SACD, and that should be related to Dolby compression on the Q4.

It would be funny if they took a Q4 and recorded it in digital, adding some blend between Lf,CC,Rf,Rs,Ls,LFE to create a 5.1 feeling to it, then burning the "new" SACD version.

 

[JonUrban]

I'm suprised that there are not more comments about this finding. To me, it's pretty disappointing that they tampered with the original mix this way. That, added to the "extra" NR and higher top end, is depressing to me. I expected much more from these discs. I was not going to DVD-A my reels because of these releases, but now I just might.

I wonder if the other two will ever come out?

:-jon

 

[EMB]

I'm not really sure what's going on...but some kind of futzing is at work, at least in regards to tonality and separation, because your samples don't lie, and the impression I get is also that a little Eq tweaking may come into play. Not necessary, but that never stopped anyone from doing it...

ED

 

[El Guapo]

Maybe we should try and get a statement from Decca about this issue...

If there indeed has been a foulup in the transfer or mastering process that was not intended, I would really like to see a corrected edition (with a replacement for those who already bought the faulty one).

If it was intended, I sure would like to know why...

It seems there are some people close to the music industry in this forum; anybody has an address where we can likely get a real answer?

Best regards,
Oliver