To Sub or not to Sub?

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Yep, I’ve listened to good, bad and indifferent 5.1 HT setups. When good, there’s really no problem, because as you say, it’s being delivered properly just as the mix engineer intended, and if that’s done extremely well, then we have a most excellent audio result.

For my audio situation, I’d have to start all over with all new equipment, plus I do not have or want a home theater or even a TV focused room, I don’t even own a TV. Never have either, just never had the time, or interest. I bought the UDP-205 disc player for its great DACs and use it in stereo and quad mode exclusively.

I’m only adding my 2¢ in this thread because as a fellow drummer, who records live music on a fairly decent studio ATR open reel machine, I usually know what’s missing right away when speakers fail to deliver back the full frequency spectrum and dynamic range the drums naturally have.

So my point was to suggest that separation of the low frequencies from regular speakers that he has already, and allowing the heavy lifting to be done cheaply and effectively by a dedicated subwoofer might be a better solution than not to add a sub.
 
There's a reason adding a dedicated sub to a system and managing that caught on! :)

A couple quick evaluations with some test tones will get you there. (With speaker management)
Pick 3 different frequencies. (eg. 44Hz, 100Hz, 200Hz) Flip between them and listen for all being the same volume.
Then a frequency sweep. Listen especially at the crossover point for consistency. You don't want the tone to dropout or bloom at the crossover frequency. Work your crossover point with those tools.

You can pull up a tone generator plugin in any DAW.

FYI, the Lfe channel is spec'd up to 120Hz. If you have a sub restricted (crossed over) lower than that you would need to speaker manage that 'top' portion of the Lfe frequency range into your front L/R mains. Or it will go missing and alter the mix for you.
 
NB in a typical modern surround system, LFE output bandwidth is managed in your AVR by the 'LFE LPF' setting , or similar named function. That sets the low pass filter for LFE being output from the AVR. Bass management of the other channels, i.e., the crossover setting, has no effect on this setting..

The other place LFE bandwidth can be restricted, is at the subwoofer input itself -- the low pass filter there should be set to maximum (i.e., higher than the AVR setting), or better yet turned off, if that's an option, since LPF has usually happened already by the time the signal reaches the sub.

LFE on discs can have wildly varying amounts of bandwidth, in my observation of rips viewed as waveforms. Dolby spec -- LFE was invented for Dolby Digital movies, though it's actually 'Low Frequency Extension' for home use with Dolby Pro Logic -- is supposed to limit it at 120 Hz for decoded DD (80Hz for DTS), but PCM/DSD (e.g. DVDA, BluRay, SACD) is the wild west. Even there, I doubt the authors really intend the user to be outputting content >120 Hz from their subs. They just figure LPF@120Hz (tops) of the LFE will happen somewhere in the playback chain.

I guess this is the place to say, again, what a pity it is that X.1 music releases contain LFE content at all. It's not necessary -- unless it's Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture with real cannons -- and it just complicates playback.
 
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NB you can stick anything you want into the LFE track of a .1 release...including full range content....which bizarrely, does happen (hello Steven Wilson?)...but even that content is intended to be put through a low pass filter. Not played back as an additional full range channel ('6.0')
We have had this discussion elsewhere, not all, but several SW bluray releases had full range bass + drums in the LFE channel. For instance all Gentle Giant releases so far. I don't know who mixed American Beauty by Grateful Dead, bass + drums is in LFE as well. Excellent for transcribing bass or drums ! Or just for enjoying the rhythm section. Not so bizarre, for me very useful.
 
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I was thinking about the 2 styles of mixing to the Lfe channel. Especially with all the errant masters with full range audio in the Lfe track sneaking out recently.

There are two styles of working with an Lfe channel in a mix.
Treating it simply as a discrete channel like any other audio channel vs. using it as an extension to add to the mix in the mains channels.

Anyone remember the original surround panner in Protools HD?
There was a dedicated Lfe send. The intended workflow was to add (ie duplicate) bass having sources to the Lfe for a bass "extension". Said source would still be directed to the mains channels per the panner. The Lfe send would also send it to the Lfe channel. That would duplicate the bass content going to the mains channels and also send that source to the Lfe per the send level.

Discrete mixing is more straightforward. No kludgey duplicating things. You route your mix elements to the channel/channels you please including the Lfe. You might only mix some bass element to the Lfe channel.

There's no frequency band restriction "built in". Again, you do what you please while being aware that the format states that the Lfe will not have any frequency content above 120Hz.

Obviously the send/extension method ends up sending full range audio to the Lfe channel when you do that! In this scenario it's just assumed that any playback system will restrict the Lfe to bass only. The subwoofer speaker itself can only reproduce so high and there is likely a crossover built into it for protection anyway. This is pretty fast and loose!

So... what happens on playback with different systems? Does this alter a mix from system to system?
Short answer is actually: Most of the time "no".

When mixing using the extension technique, your monitor system sub channel is going to be frequency restricted the same as anyone else's. At least grossly. You're duplicating sub bass that is also in some of the mains channels every time but you're still dialing in the mix to taste and you only get the sub bass reproduced by the Lfe channel speaker.

If the listener has the same setup with a 1:1 speaker array the mix is heard as intended.
If the listener has a small top speaker managed system redirecting the mains bass content to the Lfe, the Lfe still restricts the audio from the Lfe channel. The bass from the mains channels is added in and the mix is still heard as intended.

If the listener has a big mains, no sub system redirecting the Lfe channel content to the front L/R speaker... Oh oh! Unless the speaker management is low passing that Lfe channel content first, now we have a giant mix alteration if that Lfe channel has full range sound!

The discrete method has no worries. All cases of different speaker management end up with the same mix balance as intended.

At a glance, the extension method seems fast and loose and sloppy as illustrated. If the system has a 1:1 speaker array though, no one from mix engineer to end listener is the wiser. It simply works. Most subwoofers are going to be low passed with a crossover around 120Hz anyway. Yes, there could be alteration if you had a sub that put out something above 120Hz! But most cases still translate correctly. There's nothing inherently wrong with duplicating bass program in multiple speakers either. And again, it translates.

As evidenced by the older surround panners with the Lfe send (and you can still find panner plugins that have this feature today), this was intended to be a mix workflow style thinking of the sub as an extension. The discrete style is obviously fully intentional and bulletproof. It's just another channel. I'm mixing a source element to it and doing any low pass with intention myself.

Note, you could still be fast and loose and let your subwoofer crossover restrict the channel and send full range audio there! But you probably aren't if you are dialing up discrete things with intention.

I'm not in any way going to suggest the 'extension' method is wrong! It appears to be the first workflow style and the panner plugins with the Lfe send prove it. But I will suggest that this can really skew a mix if you have a speaker managed system and depending on the speaker management routing! If this was caught in mastering though, it would be a simple fix (low pass the Lfe channel at 120Hz) and now it translates to any system again.

I think our boy Steve Wilson is mixing on Protools and then no one caught the full range Lfe channel in mastering on a few releases!

If you are speaker managing the Lfe channel into your front L/R on a 'big mains' system, you might want to add a low pass eq at 120Hz on the Lfe to your speaker management. That would be insurance that any fast and loose 5.1 master with an errant full range Lfe track removed the unintended higher range audio there that was not heard in the studio and not intended to be there.

Have fun with that! :)
 
I was thinking about the 2 styles of mixing to the Lfe channel. Especially with all the errant masters with full range audio in the Lfe track sneaking out recently.

There are two styles of working with an Lfe channel in a mix.
Treating it simply as a discrete channel like any other audio channel vs. using it as an extension to add to the mix in the mains channels.

Anyone remember the original surround panner in Protools HD?
There was a dedicated Lfe send. The intended workflow was to add (ie duplicate) bass having sources to the Lfe for a bass "extension". Said source would still be directed to the mains channels per the panner. The Lfe send would also send it to the Lfe channel. That would duplicate the bass content going to the mains channels and also send that source to the Lfe per the send level.

Discrete mixing is more straightforward. No kludgey duplicating things. You route your mix elements to the channel/channels you please including the Lfe. You might only mix some bass element to the Lfe channel.

There's no frequency band restriction "built in". Again, you do what you please while being aware that the format states that the Lfe will not have any frequency content above 120Hz.

Obviously the send/extension method ends up sending full range audio to the Lfe channel when you do that! In this scenario it's just assumed that any playback system will restrict the Lfe to bass only. The subwoofer speaker itself can only reproduce so high and there is likely a crossover built into it for protection anyway. This is pretty fast and loose!

So... what happens on playback with different systems? Does this alter a mix from system to system?
Short answer is actually: Most of the time "no".

When mixing using the extension technique, your monitor system sub channel is going to be frequency restricted the same as anyone else's. At least grossly. You're duplicating sub bass that is also in some of the mains channels every time but you're still dialing in the mix to taste and you only get the sub bass reproduced by the Lfe channel speaker.

If the listener has the same setup with a 1:1 speaker array the mix is heard as intended.
If the listener has a small top speaker managed system redirecting the mains bass content to the Lfe, the Lfe still restricts the audio from the Lfe channel. The bass from the mains channels is added in and the mix is still heard as intended.

If the listener has a big mains, no sub system redirecting the Lfe channel content to the front L/R speaker... Oh oh! Unless the speaker management is low passing that Lfe channel content first, now we have a giant mix alteration if that Lfe channel has full range sound!

The discrete method has no worries. All cases of different speaker management end up with the same mix balance as intended.

At a glance, the extension method seems fast and loose and sloppy as illustrated. If the system has a 1:1 speaker array though, no one from mix engineer to end listener is the wiser. It simply works. Most subwoofers are going to be low passed with a crossover around 120Hz anyway. Yes, there could be alteration if you had a sub that put out something above 120Hz! But most cases still translate correctly. There's nothing inherently wrong with duplicating bass program in multiple speakers either. And again, it translates.

As evidenced by the older surround panners with the Lfe send (and you can still find panner plugins that have this feature today), this was intended to be a mix workflow style thinking of the sub as an extension. The discrete style is obviously fully intentional and bulletproof. It's just another channel. I'm mixing a source element to it and doing any low pass with intention myself.

Note, you could still be fast and loose and let your subwoofer crossover restrict the channel and send full range audio there! But you probably aren't if you are dialing up discrete things with intention.

I'm not in any way going to suggest the 'extension' method is wrong! It appears to be the first workflow style and the panner plugins with the Lfe send prove it. But I will suggest that this can really skew a mix if you have a speaker managed system and depending on the speaker management routing! If this was caught in mastering though, it would be a simple fix (low pass the Lfe channel at 120Hz) and now it translates to any system again.

I think our boy Steve Wilson is mixing on Protools and then no one caught the full range Lfe channel in mastering on a few releases!

If you are speaker managing the Lfe channel into your front L/R on a 'big mains' system, you might want to add a low pass eq at 120Hz on the Lfe to your speaker management. That would be insurance that any fast and loose 5.1 master with an errant full range Lfe track removed the unintended higher range audio there that was not heard in the studio and not intended to be there.

Have fun with that! :)
Please define "recently".

Grateful Dead's American Beauty DVD-A is from 2001.
The "Sectors" bluray releases by Rush including 5.1 remixes of Fly by Night, A Farewell to Kings and Signals are from 2011.
All of them with full range LFE.

American Beauty was mixed in 5.1 by Mickey Hart, the Rush releases by Richard Chycki.

AFAIK Steve Wilson's first release with full range LFE is Gentle Giant's The Power and the Glory from 2014. He has been consistently mixing GG with full range LFE, the last one from 2019.

Other lossless releases have been inconsistent in this regard, for example Yes' Relayer (2014) and Tales from Topographic Oceans (2016) don't use the full range in LFE.

All his Jethro Tull mixes except for the first one (Aqualung from 2011 is also available in bluray) are lossy DTS and AC3 and unsurprisingly not full range LFE. I don't know about the Aqualung bluray and I would be interested to know.

So I think that it is not as simple as what tools were used at a particular time.
 
Please define "recently".

Well it looks like the definition I was working under was "recently noticed by me".

I don't want to just bluntly call this wrong without any caveat.
The "bass extension" style of mixing sub bass content with the Lfe channel being used to duplicate some content already in other channels combined with most subwoofer products including a passive crossover lead to this happening.

Most systems will end up delivering the mix as intended in spite of this.

I want to suggest that this IS sloppy or at least inexact. I respect that it might have been one of the first surround mix "techniques" using an Lfe channel for good or bad.

Ultimately the spec on the Lfe channel is low frequency audio only up to 120Hz. I'm going to say it's the job of the mastering engineer to clean that channel up of stray unintended audio and thus insure compatibility across systems.

If you listened to one of these errant masters on a 'big mains' system with the Lfe content redirected to the front L/R, the mix would be mangled. Wildly mangled! This is a legit system config and literally the 2nd most common speaker management scenario. A Lfe channel with stray audio above 120Hz is a mastering mistake.

And if it was an unintended mixing mistake that led to the mix getting skewed (ie even on a 1:1 system), the mastering engineer giving this feedback to the mix engineer would lead to discovering the error and a correction.

Myself, I have a sub with a passive crossover at 120Hz. I was fully unaware of many releases having this error until I went looking for it. Hence my definition of "recently". :D
 
As a bass player, what you think is an error is for me a feature and a source of joy :)
You mean because that stray content in the Lfe ends up often being solo'd bass? (Or at least more solo'd than the mix.)

No argument there! Crafty discovery. :)

Just to be clear, I also don't want to suggest that the "extension" style mixing is in any way wrong either! Duplicating the sub content from some of the mix sources in the Lfe and some mains channels is all good. The mix balance is the mix balance. You're still working the overall mix balance with your bass sub and kick sub content duplicated across 3 channels. (eg. front L/R mains + Lfe)

Someone might even argue that this gives the listener the ability to 'work' the sub bass content with their system. All good. I just prefer a discrete approach personally. Bass content eats up headroom pretty quickly too. Who wouldn't want to use the Lfe discretely for sub bass only to open up headroom on the mains channels, right? I thought so anyway.
 
You mean because that stray content in the Lfe ends up often being solo'd bass? (Or at least more solo'd than the mix.)

No argument there! Crafty discovery. :)

Just to be clear, I also don't want to suggest that the "extension" style mixing is in any way wrong either! Duplicating the sub content from some of the mix sources in the Lfe and some mains channels is all good. The mix balance is the mix balance. You're still working the overall mix balance with your bass sub and kick sub content duplicated across 3 channels. (eg. front L/R mains + Lfe)

Someone might even argue that this gives the listener the ability to 'work' the sub bass content with their system. All good. I just prefer a discrete approach personally. Bass content eats up headroom pretty quickly too. Who wouldn't want to use the Lfe discretely for sub bass only to open up headroom on the mains channels, right? I thought so anyway.
In all GG releases you get a clean bass and drums mix (with the odd exception of something else added). Ray Shulman is one of my bass heroes.
 
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Pixies' Doolittle blueray (2016) mixed by Kevin Vanbergen has also full range LFE, just Kim Deal's bass on it, no drums. Maybe I should start a separate thread on the topic :)
 
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