How do you check your channel assignment?

[ssully]

I let auto set-up check my channel assignments for me. Soooo glad I don't have to deal with these issues. Yeesh.
GL, to those who do.

I presume you are referring to AVR auto setup. Regarding channel layout, auto setup simply tells an AVR which of its loudspeaker outputs are connected to loudspeakers.

It's entirely independent of other hardware connected to the AVR. The problem here is in the player.

 

[BeoProf]

...but also very cool. You certainly can't beat '70s gear for looks, and some old quad amps have really neat features that you'd never see today (separate volume dials/sliders for each channel, analog VU meters, oscilloscopes, etc).

Indeed! my Sansui QRX is fully restored by an amazing tech, switches and pots taken apart and cleaned. Fully functional, looks great and sounds pretty sweet, at least as far as multichannel amplification is considered.

 

[ssully]

Thanks, although the more I think about the more I think it seems to be not such a bad thing. Think about it: essentially with a flip of a switch I can swap the rear channels on quad discs authored as 5.0. In cases like Birds of Fire this is very convenient.
I think I'll just get some cheap 7" LCD monitor to hook up to the player permanently solely for the purpose of accessing the menu and doing this on the fly.
I haven't checked this yet, but I suspect turning the center on and off on 5.1 authored discs will have no effect, if that would be the case this would be a way to distinguish one type from the other.
The worst thing was not knowing what is giving the inconsistencies with the mixes people were reporting - now that I know I can actually use it to my advantage.

If I understand correctly, you have a quad setup , with a disc player connected via analog to one or more preamp/amps. So you leave your player's center and LFE output 'off', which should fold C and LFE content back into the 'mains'. When the C or LFE channels exist on the disc, but are empty, the effect should be inconsequential. Yet in your system, leaving C and LFE off causes 5.0 SACD discs -- and only those (? a pity you can't try actual 4.0 DVD-A discs, or 5.0 DVD-A) to reverse the rear channel output. You've verified this by comparing player C 'on' vs 'off'.

What doesn't make sense to me is...a 5.0 disc still encodes an 'active' (even if silent) Center channel. All it lacks is an LFE channel. Why on earth would the presence or absence of LFE (5.1 vs 5.0) affect how your player's 'Center' on/off setting works? And why does that affect your rear channels?

What happens when you leave Center 'off', but turn LFE 'on' in your player?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

What happens when you leave Center 'off', but turn LFE 'on' in your player?

Another good question

 

[ssully]

The latter. All 8 bars are present but there is activity only in the one's where there is a signal.

If a channel exists, but has no content (it's silent), what does it show?


IIRC, SACD ripping logs show channel layout of the disc...I'll have to check if that's true. And of course the ISO ripped track layout, if read by a player like, say, foobar, can also shows the # of channels. Neither of these recourses are available to BeoProf, I know, but perhaps we who rip could start a thread verifying channel layout of our SACDs (possibly per track...on DVD-A, at least, sometimes the channel layout changes from track to track! E.g, the first Brain Salad Surgery DVD-A)

 

[BeoProf]

If I understand correctly, you have a quad setup , with a disc player connected via analog to one or more preamp/amps. So you leave your player's center and LFE output 'off', which should fold C and LFE content back into the 'mains'. When the C or LFE channels exist on the disc, but are empty, the effect should be inconsequential. Yet in your system, leaving C and LFE off causes 5.0 SACD discs -- and only those (? have you tried actual 4.0 DVD-A discs? Or 5.0 DVD-A?) to reverse the rear channel output. You've verified this by comparing player C 'on' vs 'off'.

What doesn't make sense to me is...a 5.0 disc still encodes an 'active' (even if empty) Center channel. All it lacks is an LFE channel. Why on earth would the presence or absence of LFE (5.1 vs 5.0) affect how your player's 'Center' on/off setting works? And why does that affect your rear channels?

What happens when you leave Center 'off', but turn LFE 'on' in your player?

Center off nad LFE on does not do anything - I checked it since I was hoping it was the LFE that is responsible for this. The center channel will be more problematic to deal with.
But in general those are all great questions! I don't have any answers, unfortunately, perhaps someone else here can weigh in.
The player I have was a TOTL Marantz player around 10 years ago and sold for 1500 USD then. It would be reasonable to expect it is equipped with relatively bug-free software.

 

[ssully]

I assume you mean this for 5.1 authored disks that are truly only 4.0, and in that case I think you are correct.

For 5.1 authored disks that truly do have center channel info, I think you will may well hear a difference. If there is CC info on the disk and the center is turned on at the disk player, the CC info will simply not be reproduced at all. If the CC is turned off at the player, the player should take the CC info and distribute it to the FL and FR at -3dB so the info is reproduced via a phantom center image. That's the standard anyway.

I don't think players, or AVRs, 'care' whether there is audible content in a channel..they only 'care' if the channel exists or not. If present, the channel is still 'active' even if it contains only digital silence.

I realize BeoProf's experience may suggest otherwise..it would be the first such case that I've ever heard of, where hardware 'cared' so much about the output level of a channel.

 

[ssully]

The player I have was a TOTL Marantz player around 10 year ago and sold for 1500 USD then. It would be reasonable to expect it is equipped with relatively bug-free software.

What is the player model? Can it play DVD-A?

 

[BeoProf]

What is the player model?

It is a Marantz DV-7001.
Yes, it can play DVD-A, but I don't have any to try. However, @ar surround mentioned above he had trouble with DVD-A and setting the phantom center channel with the Marantz DV-9600, which is the direct predecessor of my player.

 

[BeoProf]

Once again, check for a firmware update. Marantz may have already addressed the problem and the solution is in an update that was never loaded to your machine.

I searched, but no firmware updates seem to be available.

 

[ssully]

It is a Marantz DV-7001.
Yes, it can play DVD-A, but I don't have any to try. However, @ar surround mentioned above he had trouble with DVD-A and setting the phantom center channel with the Marantz DV-9600, which is the direct predecessor of my player.

Oh, vintage 2007. The bad old wild west days of 'hi rez' hardware. Crippled digital output (no SACD, and I can't tell from the manual if DVD-A 5.1 is ever output-able or not via HDMI..possibly only if it is PCM, not MLPCM?). Heaven knows how the bass management works.

I know you are analog-only, but I'd still recommend updating your player to something newer...if you can find one with analog outs....

I wonder if there are DVD-Vs with 5.0 or 4.0 on them (or DVDA with them as lossy tracks). Thsoe would be another test of your system. Your player decodes DD/DTS internally and outputs it as analog PCM.

 

[proufo]

Given that there are DVD-As that don't allow the center channel to be played in the main speakers, it seems the safe approach is to always have a center speaker.

Of course BeoProf, with your existing speakers that could be difficult.

Had no center speaker in my system until recently, and I'm still getting used to it. It is distracting sometimes.

 

[BeoProf]

I know you are analog-only, but I'd still recommend updating your player to something newer...if you can find one with analog outs....

I wouldn't mind getting a brand new player, but the problem is they don't have analog outs. That feature was being universally phased out exactly around 2007, so my player is among the last ones to still have it. There is also the Oppo, of course, but frankly it was too expensive at 1000 Euro when I was shopping for one, and now I think they are even more expensive.
So in order to get a new player I'd need to get an AVR too, and that's something I am not interested in for other reasons.

The other reputable options are the Denons 3910 and 3930. I might give one of those a try.

 

[BeoProf]

Given that there are DVD-A that don't allow the center channel to be played in the main speakers, it seems the safe approach is to always have a center speaker.

Of course BeoProf, with your existing speakers that could be difficult.

Had no center speaker in my system until recently, and I'm still getting used to it. It is distracting sometimes.

Thanks for the suggestion. My receiver has 4 channels and adding a center speaker means it would have to be powered somehow and fed directly from the line out of the player. It is unlikely that this combination would sound good.
Even if I did I just don't have space in the living room to have 3 identical speakers for the front.
My system is music only, I exactly imagine, as you say, that having a center speaker could be distracting and pull one out of the music.
However, if I leave the center channel always on, on disks with information in the center I would just lose that - e.g. vocals.

This thing about some DVD-A not allowing the center channel to be played in the main speakers - I did not know this. Is this something comon with DVD-A?
This could explain the issues @ar surround was having, mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[sjcorne]

My receiver has 4 channels and adding a center speaker means it would have to be powered somehow and fed directly from the line out of the player. It is unlikely that this combination would sound good.

I have one of these units powering my center channel. It's not ideal, but it's a relatively cheap solution that allows me to use my vintage Marantz receiver with 5.1 discs. It also gives me the ability to adjust the center volume on-the-fly (very handy on some 5.1 mixes that have the lead vocal isolated in the center speaker).

 

[Kal Rubinson]

If a channel exists, but has no content (it's silent), what does it show?

No activity. Mind you, there is no assurance only from this output map that the channel mapping is correct. In order to verify that, I use the OmniMic signals (from disc or files). So, if I play SR, it should show activity in column 6. If it shows up in another column, the mapping needs to be fixed. A 4.0 recording without silent C/LFE channels might map to the first four columns.

 

[proufo]

This thing about some DVD-A not allowing the center channel to be played in the main speakers - I did not know this. Is this something comon with DVD-A?

It is not common. I don't remember which ones of mine have that "feature", but they are just a few (well, I don't have many mch albums, 40 or so). The player's screen (a Marantz 7001) shows something similar to "No downmixing".

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I wouldn't mind getting a brand new player, but the problem is they don't have analog outs. That feature was being universally phased out exactly around 2007, so my player is among the last ones to still have it. There is also the Oppo, of course, but frankly it was too expensive at 1000 Euro when I was shopping for one, and now I think they are even more expensive.
So in order to get a new player I'd need to get an AVR too, and that's something I am not interested in for other reasons.

The other reputable options are the Denons 3910 and 3930. I might give one of those a try.

I have a Denon DVD-3910, a great old player (which I still use with my second Quad only set-up); but I'd seriously recommend finding a used Oppo 103. The Denon wont read files like flac, wav, dsf etc; which depending on your usage may come in handy. The Oppo will do almost anything.

 

[BeoProf]

I have one of these units powering my center channel. It's not ideal, but it's a relatively cheap solution that allows me to use my vintage Marantz receiver with 5.1 discs. It also gives me the ability to adjust the center volume on-the-fly (very handy on some 5.1 mixes that have the lead vocal isolated in the center speaker).

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll look into it. I know some of these small inexpensive amplifiers can sound pretty good, I've seen Steve Guttenberg praise one of them in one of his videos. A big problem would be to match the speaker in terms of sound signature, my speakers are all vintage Bang & Olufsen, phase and time aligned, and I think matching the center speaker in terms of sound quality would be a nightmare. There's a separate thread here at QQ about the importance of having the center speaker identical to the main speakers. Not long ago I replaced my rear speakers, which were smaller than the fronts but from the same line of speakers, with a second pair identical to the front. The difference it made surprised me, it was so drastic. Thus I tend to believe the proper way to do it would be to add a fifth identical speaker for the front.

 

[BeoProf]

I have a Denon DVD-3910, a great old player (which I still use with my second Quad only set-up); but I'd seriously recommend finding a used Oppo 103. The Denon wont read files like flac, wav, dsf etc; which depending on your usage may come in handy. The Oppo will do almost anything.

Last time I checked the Oppos only went up in price after being discontinued, even the used ones and there is not many of them for sale where I live.
How is the sound quality from the analog outs on the Oppo?