Columbia quad reels????

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Circular Vibes said:
I have come across an interesting, but heated discussion on vinyl engine about 4 channel sound. http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71299 A user, PhilBrown, has suggested that there was a catalog number for a quad reel for Simon and Garfunkel's BOTW, that the Mike Robin reels can't possibly exist(citing his experience at Columbia at the time), and other things.
Quote
Where would an alternate quad mix come from? Certainly Halee didn't do one. You have no idea what was involved in mixing it. Just for starters, most songs were mixed a verse at a time and cut together. No one but Halee could do that. And Sony would NEVER let the tapes out of its sight. In fact, I wonder if they even know where they are.
Just for starters, The Boxer comes from 2 8 tracks running together with an additional 2 track string part on the out courses.
Sorry, don't buy it.
Phil Brown
Unquote

What I want to know is, does the name ring a bell for anyone here? It is my current assumption that he is blowing smoke, based on common knowledge on the topic around here, but I am willing (and wanting reelly bad) to be wrong. I have invited him to join us here, let's see wat happens.:confused:
Click to expand...

Hi, my name is Phil Brown.
I went to work at Columbia Records Recording Studio in San Francisco in 1971. I'll spare you the long boring details of 35 years as a recording engineer and sound mixer in the record, TV and movie businesses.
I was the tape op for the quad remix of Bridge.
I know a bit about it.
And since I worked for CBS I know a bit about the workings of the company.
There was a quad RtoR cataloged but we never got one. I suspect it was never actually produced but I have an ebay search nonetheless.
Things in New York were certainly different but in SF engineers did the quad mixes. In Halee's case he was the producer. For Santana Glen Kolotkin did them with Carlos et al hanging around. BS&T was done by Mike Fusaro, a really good engineer with whom I am still friends, with Roy Segal and Roy Halee, who had done the original record, checking in. Mike did, among many albums, Fly Like An Eagle and a lot of other Steve Miller records. I've always thought that Mercury Blues appears on the record because I was driving a blue 1956 Mercury to work.
We didn't need supervision from New York to make these mixes. We listened to the record, put the tape up, and did it. No mystery.
Some of the quads are quite good, some not so much. The ones mixed by engineers tend to be less flashy than artist controlled mixes. They always seem to like things swirling around the room.
And I cut the SQ encoded discs of Bridge.
If you google me you will find that I made a lot of records in England. I didn't. That's another Phill Brown. and there's a guitar player too, who used to live a couple of blocks from me. in LA.
As an observation, why make "the poster is blowing smoke" as your default position? Some of us actually know what we're talking about.
And I sign my posts.
Phil Brown
 
JonUrban said:
I don't think I ever said that with regards to the BOTW album. It was the "Blood Sweat & Tears" (Second Album) that has some added material and an actual different quad mix than the Q8. (I am sure Jonathan (ArmyOfQuad) can confirm this)

As anyone who has heard the Mike Robin Bridge Over Troubled Water reel, or one of the hobby DVD-A's created from copies of this reel, the quad mix is outstanding and real and anyone who thinks it does not exist is totally out of it.

From the way I hear it, if Paul Simon knew that the Mike Robin reel was "out there", he would be mad as hell.
Click to expand...

Probably. Paul likes to control his stuff. For example, he owns 100% of his publishing and has from the beginning.
Phil Brown
 
Quad Linda said:
As to numbering, Bookends would have taken on a new catalog #, since it was originally KCS (later PC) 9529. It would have had a five-digit # like 3xxxx in Quad, with the appropriate prefix of CQ/PCQ on LP, CAQ for Q8, and whatever Quad prefix would have been assigned to Quad reels IF Columbia had released Quad on that format. Other 4-digit catalog numbers that received a new number for Quad release include: Blood, Sweat & Tears (II), which was 9720 in 2ch, but 30994 in Quad, and Santana (I), which was 9781 in 2ch, but 32964 in Quad.

As to Bookends and Beads of Sweat, I've never heard the Quad mix of either album, yet they exist as master tapes. Both are wonderful records and are among my 100 favorite albums. Bookends is my favorite S&G. In terms of fidelity, the MoFi CD of Bookends has bass response on Save the Life of My Child that is equalled by no other version, IMHO. Beads of Sweat features some juicy guitar work by the late, great Duane Allman.

Eli & the Thirteenth Confession does, in fact, have two unreleased Quad mixes. One of the two mixes is incomplete, and is missing the last few tracks, including the Confession.

Strictly conjecture here on my part, but there are likely reasons why several of these Quad mixes were never released:
1- The two Laura Nyro albums were shelved, since she decided to marry and have a child. There would be no forthcoming new product from her for years, until Smile. Gonna Take a Miracle, her last new album before hiatus was released when Quad was first being introduced by Columbia. Clive Davis took a similar tack when Kenny Loggins was assigned to Jim Messina to produce his 1st album as a solo album. Clive said, "it's fine if you want to become a duo, BUT then you're going to give me at least 5 studio albums and we'll promote you as a duo. You're NOT going to give me a single duo album and then break up. At that point, promoting you as a duo makes no sense at all." (Perhaps these aren't the EXACT words Clive used, but the gist is there.) That may also be the reason that Sittin' In was released in Japan in Quad, but not in the US.

2- Johnny Winter (I) had some tracks with one or two instruments, like Leland Mississippi Blues & Dallas. When I worked for CBS, I heard the unreleased Quad mix. Some of it, like I'll Drown in My Own Tears is mixed well, since there are many instruments. Those acoustic tracks are pretty blah in Quad, just as the cancelled Horowitz Plays Scriabin would have been with only Vlad on piano. Can you say Quadramonic?

3- Edgar Winter's White Trash was likely shelved because the group had disbanded and CBS wanted to promote the (then new) Edgar Winter Group (Frankenstein, etc.)

4- Perhaps CBS was more interested in promoting Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel's solo endeavors, rather than old S&G product. Bridge was S&G's biggest seller, and still riding high on the charts when Paul's solo project was released. It's also possible that Paul didn't want Bookends released in Quad, again, in favor of his solo stuff. If so, CBS must have acquiesced. Truly sad, since I can't see how Bookends could have possibly taken business away from Simon's solo Quad release(s.)
Click to expand...

Lots of work to remix it-knowing Halee a couple of months-without much return. Quad didn't sell to well.
Phil Brown
 
Circular Vibes said:
I have come across an interesting, but heated discussion on vinyl engine about 4 channel sound. http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71299 A user, PhilBrown, has suggested that there was a catalog number for a quad reel for Simon and Garfunkel's BOTW, that the Mike Robin reels can't possibly exist(citing his experience at Columbia at the time), and other things.
Quote
Where would an alternate quad mix come from? Certainly Halee didn't do one. You have no idea what was involved in mixing it. Just for starters, most songs were mixed a verse at a time and cut together. No one but Halee could do that. And Sony would NEVER let the tapes out of its sight. In fact, I wonder if they even know where they are.
Just for starters, The Boxer comes from 2 8 tracks running together with an additional 2 track string part on the out courses.
Sorry, don't buy it.
Phil Brown
Unquote

What I want to know is, does the name ring a bell for anyone here? It is my current assumption that he is blowing smoke, based on common knowledge on the topic around here, but I am willing (and wanting reelly bad) to be wrong. I have invited him to join us here, let's see wat happens.:confused:
Click to expand...

Hi, I'm Phil Brown.
I went to work as an engineer at Columbia Records in San Francisco in 1971.
I was the tape op on the quad mixes of Bridge.
I won't bore you with the details of a 35 years career as a recording engineer and sound mixer in the record, TV and movie businesses.
I know what I'm talking about. If you look me up you will find I did a lot of records in England. Different Phill Brown.
Also a guitar player. Not me.
I'll conflate answers to several post here.
We were never supervised from New York. In New York things probably were different but in San Francisco engineers did the quad mixes. Mike Fusaro did BS&T with Roy Segal and Roy Halee looking in from time to time. They did the original record. Mike was and is a fine engineer who did Steve Miller's records for many years. It's pretty simple. We listened to the records and mixed the quad. We would tend to keep mixes simple, no flashy effects. When artists got in the control room things flew around the speakers like no tomorrow. See Glen Kolotkin's Santana quads.
Just as a comment I always wonder why the default position on some boards is that someone is "blowing smoke." Can't you allow that some poster may actually know what they're talking about?
I cut the SQ disc of Bridge.
And I sign my posts.
Phil Brown
 
phil brown said:
Hi, I'm Phil Brown.
I went to work as an engineer at Columbia Records in San Francisco in 1971.
I was the tape op on the quad mixes of Bridge.
I won't bore you with the details of a 35 years career as a recording engineer and sound mixer in the record, TV and movie businesses.
I know what I'm talking about. If you look me up you will find I did a lot of records in England. Different Phill Brown.
Also a guitar player. Not me.
I'll conflate answers to several post here.
We were never supervised from New York. In New York things probably were different but in San Francisco engineers did the quad mixes. Mike Fusaro did BS&T with Roy Segal and Roy Halee looking in from time to time. They did the original record. Mike was and is a fine engineer who did Steve Miller's records for many years. It's pretty simple. We listened to the records and mixed the quad. We would tend to keep mixes simple, no flashy effects. When artists got in the control room things flew around the speakers like no tomorrow. See Glen Kolotkin's Santana quads.
Just as a comment I always wonder why the default position on some boards is that someone is "blowing smoke." Can't you allow that some poster may actually know what they're talking about?
I cut the SQ disc of Bridge.
And I sign my posts.
Phil Brown
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,

Welcome to QQ. Glad to hear someone with the creds stop by an let us all in on reality. Very nice.

The Columbia Quads were top notch, however, it was very unfortunate that the best way to hear them properly was on an 8-track tape, as the SQ decoders (and probably the encoders) of the day were not very good, especially the consumer low end models stuck into the cheap ass quad equipment sold in department stores and such.

The first time I heard the Mike Robin "Bridge Over Troubled Water" reel I was floored. It's a beautiful mix and it is a damn shame that Sony did not see fit to release it as-is as an SACD back in 2001 or so. That album, the Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel solo titles along with the BS&T albums are must hears is surround, yet may remain relegated to those old quad 8 tracks unless someone gets them out to the public.

You are right about the Santana's!

You know, these early quad mixes go generally uncredited, so people like you are all we have that can let us all know about the real names behind the mixes.

It's great that you stopped by to clear things up, and yes, people do resort to the old "blowing smoke" routine when there is no way to confirm anything because unfortunately, there is a lot more smoke being blown these days than actual hard information - and that is sad.

So, thanks so much for clarifying and please if you feel up to it, let us in on more inside information about these old mixes, who did them, and what happened to them. We love this stuff
 
Hi Phil,

I'm just curious now, since to date, no factory-produced Columbia Quad reels have ever surfaced; but do you mean to say that Columbia at one point in time actually DID consider releasing Quad material on Reel to Reel? That's pretty exciting news because I think they were the only company to be knee-deep in Quad to NOT release RtoR Quad. We've always deduced the reasoning behind it was because they had such confidence in the SQ system and, at the same time, didn't want to compete with SQ & Q8 or show just how deficient some of those early SQ decoders were.

Since you were there, do you have any interesting stories to share about your time at Columbia or do you know of any other unreleased (however, mixed) Quadraphonic albums?

Appreciate you joining QQ!

Darrin K. :)
 
phil brown said:
Hi, my name is Phil Brown.

I went to work at Columbia Records Recording Studio in San Francisco in 1971. I'll spare you the long boring details of 35 years as a recording engineer and sound mixer in the record, TV and movie businesses.

I was the tape op for the quad remix of Bridge. I know a bit about it. And since I worked for CBS I know a bit about the workings of the company.
There was a quad RtoR cataloged but we never got one. I suspect it was never actually produced but I have an ebay search nonetheless.

Things in New York were certainly different but in SF engineers did the quad mixes. In Halee's case he was the producer. For Santana Glen Kolotkin did them with Carlos et al hanging around. BS&T was done by Mike Fusaro, a really good engineer with whom I am still friends, with Roy Segal and Roy Halee, who had done the original record, checking in. Mike did, among many albums, Fly Like An Eagle and a lot of other Steve Miller records. I've always thought that Mercury Blues appears on the record because I was driving a blue 1956 Mercury to work.
We didn't need supervision from New York to make these mixes. We listened to the record, put the tape up, and did it. No mystery.

Some of the quads are quite good, some not so much. The ones mixed by engineers tend to be less flashy than artist controlled mixes. They always seem to like things swirling around the room.
And I cut the SQ encoded discs of Bridge.

If you google me you will find that I made a lot of records in England. I didn't. That's another Phill Brown. and there's a guitar player too, who used to live a couple of blocks from me. in LA.

As an observation, why make "the poster is blowing smoke" as your default position? Some of us actually know what we're talking about.

And I sign my posts.

Phil Brown
Click to expand...

Phil, thanks for stopping by QQ! I always wondered who did the Quad mix on "Blood, Sweat & Tears". Mike Fusaro is credited as being the Quad Sound Supervisor and Quad Re-Mix Engineer on the Q8 and SQ editions of BS&T's Greatest Hits. So it seemed likely that he performed the same duties on "Blood, Sweat & Tears" as well. Apparently that is the case. Thanks for confirming that.
 
Welcome to QQ, Phil, and I will keenly read any of your accounts of your time at Columbia. Thank you for your contributions.
 
Q-Eight said:
Hi Phil,

I'm just curious now, since to date, no factory-produced Columbia Quad reels have ever surfaced; but do you mean to say that Columbia at one point in time actually DID consider releasing Quad material on Reel to Reel? That's pretty exciting news because I think they were the only company to be knee-deep in Quad to NOT release RtoR Quad. We've always deduced the reasoning behind it was because they had such confidence in the SQ system and, at the same time, didn't want to compete with SQ & Q8 or show just how deficient some of those early SQ decoders were.

Since you were there, do you have any interesting stories to share about your time at Columbia or do you know of any other unreleased (however, mixed) Quadraphonic albums?
Appreciate you joining QQ!
Darrin K. :)
Click to expand...

There were catalog numbers issued for the RtoR. The only one we tired to get was Bridge and we never saw it.
I have many stories but most people involved are still alive so, no.
Phil Brown
 
Phil, it's great to have you here! Any information you'd love to share is most welcome. If you can recall, can you share what the prefixes would have been on the Columbia Quad reels? I've seen two channel reels from the early '70's with a Q prefix (possibly QC?)

As to blowing smoke, folks sometimes do. In my many years in the hi-fi business, people would often mention things that weren't true. Anytime I heard anything suspicious, I'd check it out. Rarely were these things true.

I've collected records for nearly 60 years, my collection numbers over 20,000, with over 1000 in Quad/5.1. I find that the vast majority of folks on QQ know their stuff. Like anywhere, people sometimes have faulty memories or partial understandings. Very often here, however, there are other members reading an unintentionally misleading post that are happy to chime in with a correction.

As a Quad enthusiast for over 40 years, I'm constantly amazed and humbled by many QQ'ers knowledge, expertise and collections. As someone who often feels I know it all, these guys have often taught me things I didn't know.

PS: I recall seeing a photo of a CBS Japanese jazz title by a US artist on Quad reel. It was an officially released title. As I recall, it was in Nick Peruggi's collection.
 
bmoura said:
Phil, thanks for stopping by QQ! I always wondered who did the Quad mix on "Blood, Sweat & Tears". Mike Fusaro is credited as being the Quad Sound Supervisor and Quad Re-Mix Engineer on the Q8 and SQ editions of BS&T's Greatest Hits. So it seemed likely that he performed the same duties on "Blood, Sweat & Tears" as well. Apparently that is the case. Thanks for confirming that.
Click to expand...

At CBS we never saw the finished records or the credit list and we were always surprised when we were credited. Mike is a very good engineer.
Phil Brown
 
phil brown said:
At CBS we never saw the finished records or the credit list and we were always surprised when we were credited. Mike is a very good engineer.
Phil Brown
Click to expand...

That was very typical at the start of the '70s Quad Era - no mention at all of the key players that handled the Quad Mix, Quad Mastering, etc. As time went on, later Quad albums and tapes started to have that info. I don't think the record companies realized that adding the credits could stimulate sales. After all, if a music fan liked a Quad mix by a specific engineer, they were likely to look for and buy more by that engineer.

Good to see that has changed quite a bit today when the 5.1 remix engineer and 5.1 mastering engineer are more frequently credited and allowed to take a bow for their work on the back of the finished Surround Sound release.
 
Circular Vibes said:
Sittin' In. CBS/Sony SOPL 30 (SQ) [Japan]

According to Mark Anderson's Quad discography.

Okay, one more for me to keep an eye out for!
Click to expand...
Circular Vibes said:
I've looked online and it does appear there might be an error in the quad discography, unless it has been discovered in the past as a hidden quad. Time for Mark Anderson to chime in.
Click to expand...

Sorry for such a late response. I did not see this post until a year later.

LOGGINS & MESSINA -Sittin' In. CBS/Sony SOPL 30 (SQ) [Japan] is not quad as every copy I have seen is stereo.
This should be removed from the discography.
Sorry for any confusion.
 
bmoura said:
It's very possible that Lawrence and Keyes did the Bridge Over Troubled Waters and Blood, Sweat & Tears Quad mixes - not Roy Halee.
Click to expand...

Aha!

Didn't think Halee could have done that mix -- it's pretty inept. His quad work on Garfunkel's Angel Clare is faultless (apart from placing vocals center-back).
 
Quad Linda said:
Phil, it's great to have you here! Any information you'd love to share is most welcome. If you can recall, can you share what the prefixes would have been on the Columbia Quad reels? I've seen two channel reels from the early '70's with a Q prefix (possibly QC?)
Click to expand...

That's always the challenge with the Unreleased Quad Recordings. All of the tapes are stored by Catalog Number.
If the Quad was never released, it's very difficult to find without the correct prefix and number!
 
bmoura said:
That's always the challenge with the Unreleased Quad Recordings. All of the tapes are stored by Catalog Number.
If the Quad was never released, it's very difficult to find without the correct prefix and number!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the number ordinarily just correspond with the stereo?

So, if that stereo cat no was PC 34457 then the Quad would be CQ 34457 (or PCQ 34457 if after the $1 price hike)?
 
Usually, that would be true for US Columbia/EPIC etc, though not always. 4 digit numbered 2 ch LP's like Santana (I) and B,S&T (II) got assigned new 5-digit #'s in Quad.

fredblue said:
Wouldn't the number ordinarily just correspond with the stereo?

So, if that stereo cat no was PC 34457 then the Quad would be CQ 34457 (or PCQ 34457 if after the $1 price hike)?
Click to expand...
 
Quad Linda said:
Usually, that would be true for US Columbia/EPIC etc, though not always. 4 digit numbered 2 ch LP's like Santana (I) and B,S&T (II) got assigned new 5-digit #'s in Quad.
Click to expand...

Thanks Linda! Great info as always :)

So, for Columbia/Epic/etc albums that were mixed in Quad pretty much around the time of or just after the Stereo release you've mostly got corresponding 5-digit catalogue numbers with the appropriate suffix change with a "Q" in it somewhere.... but with stuff that came out in Stereo and got remixed some time down the line they went from 4-digit to 5-digit with a brand new 5-digit catalogue number.. fascinating.

Oh yes and what does the QAL and QBL bit mean on those Columbia Quad LP record labels?
(I imagine the A and B is for Sides 1 & 2? What's the L refer to?)
I've found a few neat Quad records that way, by searching for QAL and QBL in seller's listings rather than using catalogue numbers and album titles/artists etc.. :)

Are AF really looking for needles in haystacks on that basis? Seems pretty straightforward for the most part :eek:
 
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