Strain Gauge 450C vs 450C II vs 451C vs 460C What's the best sound?

[DudeRocks]

It's easy to find the 450C carts have a stylus that aren't interchangeable with the 450C II and 451C which are interchangeable with each other. But what was the actual difference in sound quality out of these? What is the ok vs holy grail of these carts? What do you guys recommend and what do you not recommend and why?

 

[trevorspiro]

It's easy to find the 450C carts have a stylus that aren't interchangeable with the 450C II and 451C which are interchangeable with each other. But what was the actual difference in sound quality out of these? What is the ok vs holy grail of these carts? What do you guys recommend and what do you not recommend and why?

I’m not familiar with Strain Gauge, so cannot comment on this brand. My experience has been with JVC X1, X2 and Grado Signature Gold. To the best of my knowledge, most if not all of the Grado lineup have extended frequency response suitable for CD4. Mine tracked very well and never displayed distortion in the inner grooves of a CD4 disc. The sound was very dynamic as well. (Used in combination with a Linn LP12 turntable and Grace G707 and Linn Ittok tonearms, the Grace preferred).

 

[Doug G.]

Here are the differences in specifications for the two models:

Rated Output Level

EPC-450C II - 5.0mv @ 5cm/sec @ 1kHz 4ma

EPC-451C - 3.0mv @ 5cm/sec @ 1kHz 4ma


Compliance

EPC-450C II - 10 X 10-6cm/dyne
EPC-451C - 8 X 10-6cm/dyne


Stylus Tracking Range

EPC-450C II - 1.5 - 2.5 gr.
EPC-451C - 2.0 - 3.0 gr.

Other specs. are the same and the specifications for the original EPC-450C are the same as for the II. They just redesigned the working elements from a vertical orientation to horizontal.

I have both cartridges with their correct, genuine styli and they sound very similar with the 450C II perhaps a little more "open" and detailed, possibly due to its higher compliance, but it's so close you probably wouldn't notice unless you were able to instantly switch back and forth between the two.

I track both at 2.5 grams. Neither have any problem with CD-4.

I have a stylus for a 450C but still have not found a body so I cant comment on its sound. Maybe some day.

I guess, if I had to assign "Holy Grail" to one of them, the EPC-450C II would be it.

Doug

 

[Doug G.]

I'd like to know why this thread didn't show up in "New Posts" for today.

EDIT: Never mind. It was there today.

Doug

 

[DudeRocks]

Here are the differences in specifications for the two models:

Rated Output Level

EPC-450C II - 5.0mv @ 5cm/sec @ 1kHz 4ma

EPC-451C - 3.0mv @ 5cm/sec @ 1kHz 4ma


Compliance

EPC-450C II - 10 X 10-6cm/dyne
EPC-451C - 8 X 10-6cm/dyne


Stylus Tracking Range

EPC-450C II - 1.5 - 2.5 gr.
EPC-451C - 2.0 - 3.0 gr.

Other specs. are the same and the specifications for the original EPC-450C are the same as for the II. They just redesigned the working elements from a vertical orientation to horizontal.

I have both cartridges with their correct, genuine styli and they sound very similar with the 450C II perhaps a little more "open" and detailed, possibly due to its higher compliance, but it's so close you probably wouldn't notice unless you were able to instantly switch back and forth between the two.

I track both at 2.5 grams. Neither have any problem with CD-4.

I have a stylus for a 450C but still have not found a body so I cant comment on its sound. Maybe some day.

I guess, if I had to assign "Holy Grail" to one of them, the EPC-450C II would be it.

Doug

I started looking at these to get working a Panasonic SL-701 turntable with built in demodulator that is made only for SC carts, no switch to turn off the current so it's SC or bust. According to bloggers, not official documentation as I couldn't find any outside of a paywall, that it may have came with the 451C. I've been looking to possibly gut the thing out and make an external box to use for another turntable, as everyone dumps Panasonic's choice of turntable although it works, I've found people chatting about it but have yet to find a detailed write up with photos. Coincidentally I went ahead and purchased last night both a 451C and a 450C as it comes with NOS stylus. Seeing as the MV is different between the two you posted 5mv vs 3mv, I have no experience with changing out one for another and how it may sound with the demodulator supplying the mv as to if it will apply enough or too much, or if I should even worry about it, I can guesstimate at least 3mv if the 451c was OEM on the turntable.

Here's some of what I've found researching this over the weekend.

Starting out with tracking

EPC-450C 1.7 to 2.3 grams
EPC-450C-II 1.5 to 2.5 grams
EPC-450CM4-P 1.7 to 2.3 grams
EPC-451C 2.0 to 3.0 grams
EPC-460CM4 3.0 to 4.0 grams

Someone made their own SC pre-amp
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=33001.45
Then check out page 65 the comparison of the 450C to the 450C-II (similar to the 451C). https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1974-08.pdf shout out to Professor Bizzt 2011 comment Strain Gauge catridges

 

[DudeRocks]

Forgot to say I also have a 15S mm that I was going to put on this table until I read that it's not a good idea to be connecting to an SC preamp. (It does sound awesome on my other TT). So I tested the SL-701 with the cheapest cart I have just to see what it would do, you're basically looking at no bass on the regular 2 channel mode and then you flip it over to CD4 auto which I assume is enabling the demodulator and adds the current, even with a cheap moving magnet cartridge it came on and the bass was somewhat overpowering. I really hope this is worth the investment. I almost feel I would have been better served to purchase another turntable with a auto-changer on it. But here I am. Glutton for punishment.

 

[Owen Smith]

Forgot to say I also have a 15S mm that I was going to put on this table until I read that it's not a good idea to be connecting to an SC preamp. (It does sound awesome on my other TT). So I tested the SL-701 with the cheapest cart I have just to see what it would do, you're basically looking at no bass on the regular 2 channel mode and then you flip it over to CD4 auto which I assume is enabling the demodulator and adds the current, even with a cheap moving magnet cartridge it came on and the bass was somewhat overpowering. I really hope this is worth the investment. I almost feel I would have been better served to purchase another turntable with a auto-changer on it. But here I am. Glutton for punishment.

The over powering bass is likely to be because the MM cart you used needs RIAA equalisation and the SC preamp doesn't provide any since the CS cartridge itself has a response that does it. EDIT: or do I have that backwards?

 

[DudeRocks]

The over powering bass is likely to be because the MM cart you used needs RIAA equalisation and the SC preamp doesn't provide any since the CS cartridge itself has a response that does it. EDIT: or do I have that backwards?

Right! This is an oddity isn't it! Pretty awesome I've got my hands on some fascinating quad gear over this last year and this has got to be my favorite piece of tech to read about yet! What's next lasers? Really got my fingers crossed this TT still actually works as it should I could have saved $400 by hacking out the demodulator and try to set this up as a regular phono TT, as it's got no Phono out! Just 4 RCA in and 4 RCA out to work with. lol.

 

[Doug G.]

The 3 and 5 mv spec, is the cartridge output, not the voltage supplied to the cartridge. It may be indirectly, but the resulting output is dependent on factors within the cartridge, like the specific resistance variations as the elements are flexed, etc.

Doug

 

[DudeRocks]

The 3 and 5 mv spec, is the cartridge output, not the voltage supplied to the cartridge. It may be indirectly, but the resulting output is dependent on factors within the cartridge, like the specific resistance variations as the elements are flexed, etc.

Doug

Any thoughts on if a higher voltage can damage a demodulator, or were they all pretty much open to any version of the same manufacturer? The particular one I have is built into the Panasonic SL-701, with my luck it was likely only made for 1 specific cart and adding any other SC cart to it will disrupt the space time continuum and it will implode in my living room.

 

[Doug G.]

Any thoughts on if a higher voltage can damage a demodulator, or were they all pretty much open to any version of the same manufacturer? The particular one I have is built into the Panasonic SL-701, with my luck it was likely only made for 1 specific cart and adding any other SC cart to it will disrupt the space time continuum and it will implode in my living room.

I don't think you would have any problem. The difference isn't that great. I believe your living room is safe.

Doug