Unreleased quad mix of Madman Across The Water

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Still hoping ... still dreaming ...

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Still hoping ... still dreaming ...

Keep the faith.

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Just dredging this up in the vain hope that either of these discs will appear somehow.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Just dredging this up in the vain hope that either of these discs will appear somehow.

I remember years ago looking at an early ad of "Madman Across The Waters " and wondering why , why is that popular title not being released in quad ?

I think it was an American advert so that would be MCA/UNI , approx 1973/74 the height of quad releases btw. And as mentioned earlier in Fredblues post could be a posibility for England's DJM Records .


And regarding that 1976 studio ;
Additionally there is another question regarding a possible "shelved " quad release as the studio that was designed for quadrophonic mixing did not get into the remix of Elton's past catalogue as envisioned , but they did do an album for "Lindisfarne ".
I wonder which album and where's that quad mix ?

FWIW 1976 , in Britian/Europe is not at all late for quad releases !!

The BBC was in the process of developing their own quad matrix for broadcast , which ran for 2 to 3 years as BBC Martix H in 1977 later switched it up to BBC Matrix HJ fall of 1977 and throughout 1978.
WEA EUROPE released a small number of CD-4 lps , EMI /Electrola were still issuing SQ discs , so was Eurodisc, Harmonia Mundi , Virgin , and perhaps a few others throughout Europe .

So quad in 1976 was far from over , me thinks.



Hmmm, Lindisfarne

 

[DuncanS]

Now if Steeleydave & D-V could dig out that Lindisfarne Quad album...………..
I used to go and see them on their Xmas tour when at Uni (and in my case then it was Fog On The Taff not Tyne!), and get drunk on Newcastle Brown to get in the mood!

 

[steelydave]

I think everyone's misinterpreting the information about Lindisfarne recording at The Mill - the blurb that Adam posted was saying that they recorded an album there, not that a quad mix of it was done.

I spoke to Stuart Epps (who was Elton's mid-70s engineer and the guy that oversaw the construction of The Mill studio) last year and asked him about The Mill's quad capability and history - both for my own interest in the history of quad, and also in the hopes of digging up unreleased or previously unknown quad mixes so I can pass the info on to Grand Moff Dutton.

Mr. Epps told me that the studio was indeed constructed for quad, with the intention of remixing Elton's '70-'75 albums, but "when Quad really didnt take off the idea was scrapped." He told me that no quad mixing was ever done at The Mill, but that they did use the studio to do digital stereo remixes of some of Elton's '70-'75 material, for the 1983 CD compilation called The Superior Sound of Elton John.

He was also effusive about how much he loved quad, and said that Elton had bought him a Motorola Q8 deck for his car, and that Abraxas, Bridge over Troubled Water and Imagine were his favourite quad mixes.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I think everyone's misinterpreting the information about Lindisfarne recording at The Mill - the blurb that Adam posted was saying that they recorded an album there, not that a quad mix of it was done.

I spoke to Stuart Epps (who was Elton's mid-70s engineer and the guy that oversaw the construction of The Mill studio) last year and asked him about The Mill's quad capability and history - both for my own interest in the history of quad, and also in the hopes of digging up unreleased or previously unknown quad mixes so I can pass the info on to Grand Moff Dutton.

Mr. Epps told me that the studio was indeed constructed for quad, with the intention of remixing Elton's '70-'75 albums, but "when Quad really didnt take off the idea was scrapped." He told me that no quad mixing was ever done at The Mill, but that they did use the studio to do digital stereo remixes of some of Elton's '70-'75 material, for the 1983 CD compilation called The Superior Sound of Elton John.

He was also effusive about how much he loved quad, and said that Elton had bought him a Motorola Q8 deck for his car, and that Abraxas, Bridge over Troubled Water and Imagine were his favourite quad mixes.

Now if SONY Japan would release Stuart Epp's FAVORITE QUAD SACDs of Abraxas and Bridge Over Troubled Water. At least Imagine is a reality!

Thanks for sharing, Dave.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

That's really too bad in my opinion .

Studio designed for quad mixing ,with the intention of doing so with Elton's back catalogue , and nothing and no artist realizes that FULL intention or quadrophonic purpose .
Bit of a waste , I think.

Oh well.

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Stand by ... Alternate Madman sourced ... tests pending.

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

UK origin (PYE pressed EJ's DJM LPs in the UK) they'd be QS system too as that was Pye's matrix system of choice

However, in 1976 DJM changed UK distributors from PYE to CBS .... and The Mill wasn't built until around 1976 ...

 

[fredblue]

Stand by ... Alternate Madman sourced ... tests pending.

wow..!!!!
great job

 

[fredblue]

However, in 1976 DJM changed UK distributors from PYE to CBS .... and The Mill wasn't built until around 1976 ...

oh right! then maybe it's SQ encoded if its CBS.. probably not.. but might be worth a try decoding the material via both QS and SQ?

do they sound like alternate mixes to you?

based on the Stuart Epps info steelydave gathered (to the effect that he and Gus didn't do any EJ Quads in the UK after all, sadly) it would seem maybe either this Madman Quad is an MCA/U.S. mix..
or maybe its just not a Quad mix after all..?

look forward to hearing your findings soon! please report back at your earliest convenience!

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

I agree, this may not turn out to be an actual quad mix at all. Or it may be a fold-down rather than a matrix mix.

Whatever it is, it is very different to the standard stereo mix. Listening to the tracks in stereo, on every song Elton's voice is solely in the right channel and the piano is over on the left. Other instruments are spread across the mix, so it's like the intention is that Elton is performing in front of you.

I haven't heard a decoded track yet but I have been told they do sound better processed as SQ than as QS.

 

[fredblue]

I agree, this may not turn out to be an actual quad mix at all. Or it may be a fold-down rather than a matrix mix.

Whatever it is, it is very different to the standard stereo mix. Listening to the tracks in stereo, on every song Elton's voice is solely in the right channel and the piano is over on the left. Other instruments are spread across the mix, so it's like the intention is that Elton is performing in front of you.

I haven't heard a decoded track yet but I have been told they do sound better processed as SQ than as QS.

lordy momma..!!
what a strange 2-channel presentation.. and an amazing find!! congratulations!!

have you identified any alternate vocals or takes or other elements/instrumentation differing from the Stereo?

fascinating that the tracks should decode better thru SQ, though I can't help but think you're right and if it is a Quad mix its a fold-down rather than a matrix encode. wow..

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

lordy momma..!!
have you identified any alternate vocals or takes or other elements/instrumentation differing from the Stereo?

I'm not super-familiar with the original and only listened to the alternate the once, but nothing blindingly obvious leaped out at me

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Well, the jury is out on this one.

It's hard to tell if it's a strange quad mix, or just a strange stereo mix that gives a surround effect when put through a quad decode.

 

[fredblue]

Well, the jury is out on this one.

It's hard to tell if it's a strange quad mix, or just a strange stereo mix that gives a surround effect when put through a quad decode.

it is very odd... if it is indeed a Quad mix, i think it's both Front channels (with EJ's lead vocal) summed in the Right speaker and both Rear channels (with Elton's vocal reverb) summed in the Left.

in the title track there's a bit in one of the choruses where his vocal on "water" pans from right to left back to right, which makes me think the pan should be front to back to front again if this is a Quad mix.

i don't think its SQ or QS encoded, there don't seem to be any phase shifts going on.

the "Mono" mixes on CD 2 are not dedicated ones, they are the "Quad mix" (or whatever is on Disc 1) summed to mono.

i need to do a lot more playing around with it but right now i'm intrigued as to exactly what this might be as there's a lot of isolation from L to R so its not an upmix or spectral extraction job (1999 CD release date bit of a giveaway I guess?) very interesting..

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Great suggestion on the channel assignment.

I tried two things: rotating everything one place to the left, and swapping the front left with the rear right. I didn't have a chance to test the 'swap' version thoroughly, but the 'rotate' version sounded much better.

 

[fredblue]

Great suggestion on the channel assignment.

I tried two things: rotating everything one place to the left, and swapping the front left with the rear right. I didn't have a chance to test the 'swap' version thoroughly, but the 'rotate' version sounded much better.

did you rotate an SQ or QS decode?

i can't see this as being matrix encoded.. when playing back SQ or QS encoded material in straight Stereo (undecoded) you usually get the Stereo image balance (lead vocals in the Centre etc) whereas this has Elton's lead vocal all down one side of the room and his vocal reverb down the other side of the room..

 

[Neb-Maat-Re]

It was the SQ decode.

Yes, I'm still not sure what this is, just that it sounded better turned one step to the left.