AVR chops off beginning of ATMOS Tracks (SEE MY WORKAROUND IN POST #41)

[mandrix]

The problem with using available tools (that I know of) is that like @jimfisheye said more or less is they don't have the ability to get audio/video time aligned and/or split the audio properly at all times.
If you split an MKV file extracted from an Atmos BD, it's pretty hit or miss actually. Extract the audio from one of the chapter split MKV files and try to play in the Dolby Media Player. Most times it will barf. Sometimes you get lucky.
@HomerJAU has done a fine job with his utilities. But the underlying software is not capable of splitting an Atmos TrueHD track into chapters reliably. Not his fault, just that AFAIK no tools exist, at least free ones.

 

[jimfisheye]

Dude, I've read most of the rants. No need to reproduce them here. But how different is it from creating CD-4 and requiring a special decoder to get it to play on a turntable? They both lock the content behind a proprietary technology.

There are some extremely worthy Atmos mixes, no doubt. Its worth finding out how best to rip and archive them. Im not going back to disks

That's what I'm saying. Even with the bs it's still easier than the analog days. There's the current software dance with the media player or buying a hardware based decoder at present.

I have to say that if you followed their wishes and bought said hardware decoding AVR and you are still having a tech-laden experience, well that's not a good look!

Anyway, don't chapter split your discs right now! I chimed in here to confirm that that's a thing and not just you! Even with the genuine official Dolby reference player. Unless you rip them to wav/wavpack files first. Then you can do what you want and use any media player you want.

 

[Sal1950]

@HomerJAU has done a fine job with his utilities. But the underlying software is not capable of splitting an Atmos TrueHD track into chapters reliably. Not his fault, just that AFAIK no tools exist, at least free ones.

I tend to think the culprit is the AVR more so than anything. If you split the stream into pieces that the AVR has to re-detect the Atmos flag, It causes a problem.
I use MakeMKV to rip BD's or ISO into one continuous file and avoid the dropouts except on the very first song sometimes. That way I can still save drive space by only saving the parts important to me. I can usually rip just the Dolby Atmos track into a mkv file and use DVD-AE to rip a 5.1 or 7.1 flac file. Combined they can be close to 1/2 the size of the whole BD or ISO file. A lot of time involved though.

 

[mandrix]

I tend to think the culprit is the AVR more so than anything. If you split the stream into pieces that the AVR has to re-detect the Atmos flag, It causes a problem.
I use MakeMKV to rip BD's or ISO into one continuous file and avoid the dropouts except on the very first song sometimes. That way I can still save drive space by only saving the parts important to me. I can usually rip just the Dolby Atmos track into a mkv file and use DVD-AE to rip a 5.1 or 7.1 flac file. Combined they can be close to 1/2 the size of the whole BD or ISO file. A lot of time involved though.

Hard drive space is cheap. Just saying. I'm sure for most on here two 20TB drives would serve as archive and backup for their surround collection, with room to spare for future files...and that's in full .iso format (where possible).
Size on disc means not so much to me.
Then there's that whole time thing....

 

[Sal1950]

That's what I'm saying. Even with the bs it's still easier than the analog days. There's the current software dance with the media player or buying a hardware based decoder at present.

For sure, I've been at this since the early 70s and there's always been a hiccup or two.
All in all we're doing pretty good today, we'll work things out in time.
Until the next hiccup comes along. LOL

Hard drive space is cheap.

For spinner drives mostly yes. I prefer the quietness of SSD drives so it gets a little more expensive that way. I've got 12tb of SSD now and will be looking at another $230 for a 2.5' 4tb drive from the egg very soon.
Thank goodness prices have fallen on SSD, I paid almost $300 for my first 60gb SSD back in 2008.
I do have a 14tb spinner for backups, and I'm about to run out of space on it too..

 

[ar surround]

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm just bummed because I had ripped complete, not split into chapters, MKV files of most of my Atmos blu-rays and everything worked OK. Then I decided to split the songs into chapters using MKVToolNix, and that's when the problem started with the AVR dropping the first second or two of each song.

I reassembled the chapters back into a single file using MKVToolNix, but the ability to skip from song to song was lost. Maybe I missed something when reassembling the chapters. I'll have to look into it a bit more.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm just bummed because I had ripped complete, not split into chapters, MKV files of most of my Atmos blu-rays and everything worked OK. Then I decided to split the songs into chapters using MKVToolNix, and that's when the problem started with the AVR dropping the first second or two of each song.

I reassembled the chapters back into a single file using MKVToolNix, but the ability to skip from song to song was lost. Maybe I missed something when reassembling the chapters. I'll have to look into it a bit more.

Something else I learned the hard way. Typically there is more than one audio stream available on an MKV. When you do the rip you can choose, or you can not choose a single stream and rip them all. One stream is designated the default stream. Using Kodi for playback, it would always try to play the default stream at the start of every track. Kodi would allow you to choose a different audio stream on the fly, but at the start of the next track, it would revert to the default. So the solution is to only encode the specific audio stream you want from the get go, or use Homers MMH to assign the default track. It stopped a lot of my early difficulties with MKV file playback.

This is just general info, not saying this is your issue.

 

[Albert Dagger]

Does it only work for MKa?

Kodi will easily play Mkv files but if there is no video it makes more sense to convert the original Mkv into an Mka file with its own cue sheet.

 

[AYanguas]

Hard drive space is cheap. Just saying. I'm sure for most on here two 20TB drives would serve as archive and backup for their surround collection, with room to spare for future files...and that's in full .iso format (where possible).
Size on disc means not so much to me.
Then there's that whole time thing....

This has been the plan and my objectives to build my multimedia library:

- What is supposed to work fine for the playing customer? The original CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc played on a disc player.
- I am a "full album" listened oriented. So I don't need wonderful visual Jukeboxes to look for and change constantly from song to song. I don't need to create playlists either.

With those needs in mind, My solution has been to try to emulate the physical discs playing:

First, 'copy' the media to an identical form: The ISO image for DVD/Blu-ray. CUE/IMAGE file (wav or FLAC) for audio CDs.

Second, find a player that can "correctly play" those Image Files (from local attached disk (limiting solution). Much better from Network, for using NAS, PC server, etc.)

Starting with that "vision" in mind I abandoned all the initial challenges dealing with "PC" solutions, either Windows or Linux. Even being knowledgeable about the subject and working in IT, I found it Too complicated, time consuming, especially in the early times. (drivers, and correctly multichannel play was a nightmare).

So I looked for 'device players' that can 'emulate' a disc player, specially for running all DVD/Blu-ray menus.
- I started with the legendary Popcorn Hour. I had three different models. I don't keep any of them.
- Then, I changed to more recent brands, finding good enoug the DUNE models. I keep working two of them now.
- Finally, found the Best 'player' that can play the most of all formats: Oppo (with Jailbreak).

And, of course, the invaluable help of my multimedia database: Just a growing Excel Book, into which I put all information, including all multimedia archive, streaming and new purchases, tracking, wishlists, QQ comments, etc.
I do not need anything else. ... Well... MMH is helping me a lot for some special purposes. Thanks @HomerJAU !

 

[mandrix]

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm just bummed because I had ripped complete, not split into chapters, MKV files of most of my Atmos blu-rays and everything worked OK. Then I decided to split the songs into chapters using MKVToolNix, and that's when the problem started with the AVR dropping the first second or two of each song.

I reassembled the chapters back into a single file using MKVToolNix, but the ability to skip from song to song was lost. Maybe I missed something when reassembling the chapters. I'll have to look into it a bit more.

MKVToolNix doesn't cut the Atmos audio stream properly all the time, and I believe I was told the author has no intentions of fixing it.
But I think it's about all that's available.

 

[mandrix]

With all the very smart people that contribute to GitHub you would think someone would master this. Maybe one day!

 

[mandrix]

This has been the plan and my objectives to build my multimedia library:

- What is supposed to work fine for the playing customer? The original CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc played on a disc player.
- I am a "full album" listened oriented. So I don't need wonderful visual Jukeboxes to look for and change constantly from song to song. I don't need to create playlists either.

With those needs in mind, My solution has been to try to emulate the physical discs playing:

First, 'copy' the media to an identical form: The ISO image for DVD/Blu-ray. CUE/IMAGE file (wav or FLAC) for audio CDs.

Second, find a player that can "correctly play" those Image Files (from local attached disk (limiting solution). Much better from Network, for using NAS, PC server, etc.)

Starting with that "vision" in mind I abandoned all the initial challenges dealing with "PC" solutions, either Windows or Linux. Even being knowledgeable about the subject and working in IT, I found it Too complicated, time consuming, especially in the early times. (drivers, and correctly multichannel play was a nightmare).

So I looked for 'device players' that can 'emulate' a disc player, specially for running all DVD/Blu-ray menus.
- I started with the legendary Popcorn Hour. I had three different models. I don't keep any of them.
- Then, I changed to more recent brands, finding good enoug the DUNE models. I keep working two of them now.
- Finally, found the Best 'player' that can play the most of all formats: Oppo (with Jailbreak).

And, of course, the invaluable help of my multimedia database: Just a growing Excel Book, into which I put all information, including all multimedia archive, streaming and new purchases, tracking, wishlists, QQ comments, etc.
I do not need anything else. ... Well... MMH is helping me a lot for some special purposes. Thanks @HomerJAU !

I too have an Oppo and jailbroke it for the same reason, to play .iso files, etc.
But then the pc software got better and better, VLC (free) PowerDVD (paid). I still use Foobar for flac, SACD & DVDA .iso's at times.

 

[mandrix]

...
For spinner drives mostly yes. I prefer the quietness of SSD drives so it gets a little more expensive that way. I've got 12tb of SSD now and will be looking at another $230 for a 2.5' 4tb drive from the egg very soon.
Thank goodness prices have fallen on SSD, I paid almost $300 for my first 60gb SSD back in 2008.
I do have a 14tb spinner for backups, and I'm about to run out of space on it too..

Right there with you on prices. I still have Samsung 256GB drives I paid well over $200 for and still have some old 60 & 90GB Crucial SSD's that still work, bought a very long time ago and have survived numerous pc builds. As far as spinners, most drives today are pretty quiet and I'm not at this point ready to replace 100TB of spinners with SSD's because of cost.

I guess you would hate my pc as it has 20 fans. I'm used to it, and the fans spin slowly as a rule and are very quiet Nidec fans still going after a decade. Quiet enough I set up my UMIK-1 mic close by and still get a -37db Noise floor or -45dB if I cut off a group of fans.
===============
The gist of it then,
Of course none of this fixes the problem with splitting up Atmos files from BD. But a lot of points of view on how to do things, and I hope @ar surround can find a solution that works for him.

 

[AYanguas]

I too have an Oppo and jailbroke it for the same reason, to play .iso files, etc.
But then the pc software got better and better, VLC (free) PowerDVD (paid). I still use Foobar for flac, SACD & DVDA .iso's at times.

Sure. I also use Foobar for SACD-R and FLAC and other tools to listen to the music in the office room, where the PC server is, and where I have the old 5.1 system. But in the main room, on the home theater, only the 'device players', because I never run remotely the PC software from the home theater room.

I haven't even started playing games from the office PC on the Home Theater Projector yet, (it should be 'Big') although I left it ready for it, with an HDMI cable that crosses the two rooms from the PC to an AVR input, and wireless keayboard/mouse working great from there. Maybe I'll start one day... but since now I'm very busy with more and more surround/atmos listening...

 

[HomerJAU]

As mentioned earlier in this thread using a cue file with mka (without chapters) allows playing an entire Atmos album in Kodi without skipping at the beginning of a song. I use this method for albums requiring gapless playback (e.g. Abbey Road, DSOTM).

Splitting each song correctly (at a Key Frame) may not fix the issue if it’s caused by the Atmos Decoder/HDMI initial syncing and the chapter start is within a second of the actual music start time. MMH’s ‘Chapter Editor’ tool can fix that as a user can easily change the chapter start time for any song and save it to the MKV or MKA file (that is very fast and does not require muxing).

The Dolby Media Encoder has an option to prepend short silence to its Atmos encodes, ideally mastering engineers should use this feature AND test the finished BDA chapter times as there have been some releases that are miles off.

 

[mandrix]

As mentioned earlier in this thread using a cue file with mka (without chapters) allows playing an entire Atmos album in Kodi without skipping at the beginning of a song. I use this method for albums requiring gapless playback (e.g. Abbey Road, DSOTM).

Splitting each song correctly (at a Key Frame) may not fix the issue if it’s caused by the Atmos Decoder/HDMI initial syncing and the chapter start is within a second of the actual music start time. MMH’s ‘Chapter Editor’ tool can fix that as a user can easily change the chapter start time for any song and save it to the MKV or MKA file (that is very fast and does not require muxing).

The Dolby Media Encoder has an option to prepend short silence to its Atmos encodes, ideally mastering engineers should use this feature AND test the finished BDA chapter times as there have been some releases that are miles off.

Good info. Thanks! Nice to have a reference to pass along should this come up again.

 

[ar surround]

I set my Yamaha AVRs to STRAIGHT mode for no beginning cut offs.

Thanks JohnN. However, trying the same setting on my Marantz AVR (DIRECT mode) did not work. The beginning cut offs are still there, and Audyssey gets bypassed with the AVR is in DIRECT mode anyway.

Time try the MMH method that @HomerJAU mentioned.

 

[privateuniverse]

I have been having this problem with the new Big Express Blu-ray. I didn't remember any other XTC Blu-rays having this problem so I pulled out Skylarking and it played fine, even the tracks that segue. So I am guessing the problem is the disc, not my system?

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I have been having this problem with the new Big Express Blu-ray. I didn't remember any other XTC Blu-rays having this problem so I pulled out Skylarking and it played fine, even the tracks that segue. So I am guessing the problem is the disc, not my system?

So could it be an ultra short lead in time for certain songs? I noticed some on the XTC have less than 0.010 sec. lead in time. I know some other titles have no lead outs or ins for some songs also.

 

[privateuniverse]

So could it be an ultra short lead in time for certain songs? I noticed some on the XTC have less than 0.010 sec. lead in time. I know some other titles have no lead outs or ins for some songs also.

Presumably the problem could have been avoided with longer lead-in times for each track. However, there are some songs on Skylarking that segue and therefore could not have any lead-in time; yet the Skylarking Blu-ray plays without any issues.