Blu Ray > FLAC > Involve Encoder = Matrix Discs

[jaybird100]

I still drive my 1988 Civic LX at least once a week, for the fun of it. I can do whatever I want to with it! First a little history...

For several years I've had a Pioneer AVH-P7600 DVD-A player with amps in the trunk, which sounded great. I really hate wiring; somehow I wired the positive direct from battery (as opposed to radio circuit which was insufficient) wrong, which resulted in a parasitic draw I could never figure out. If I didn't remember to start the car every 2-3 days, I had to push it out and jump it with the 4Runner. I got tired of this and disconnected all power for sound. Now the car could sit for weeks and start effortlessly. That was about 6 months ago. I spent some quiet time driving that was nice for a while. Recently I'd bring my Klipsch Heritage Bluetooth speaker and put it on my dash.

So then I began thinking about the Frankenstein project I had in mind 15 years ago. Back before FLAC surround libraries on hard drives, I was going to use switchboxes to play either a Sony MEX2000 SACD player or my Panasonic PA65 portable DVD-A player. I put the switchboxes (4 CH unit + 2 CH unit) on eBay but nobody seemed to know what these were for or have some crazy application like I was thinking of. So I kept them.

The 2023 variation on this theme would be a similar wiring job (EEK) however this time it would be the Pioneer AVH-P7600 AM/FM/DVD-A/Aux head unit on one side and a WIN 10 laptop with a 5.1 audio player software and my 5TB portable USB hard drive. I got a new laptop for work a few months ago and IT did not want the old one back because it was a Dell unit where the battery swells and splits the case. (this was supposed to be fixed as I'd replaced the battery and case with 'improved' parts and then it did the same thing). For HDMI to 6 analog outputs to amps + master volume control I'm looking at the unit below on eBay for $59. If you know of any similar units that run on DC power, please let me know.

So if I have pretty much all my 5.1 + quad collection on the USB hard drive, what is the point of keeping the Pioneer head unit? Well, there is radio, aux for podcasts or Soundcloud for my own music. So this is what I'm thinking to do in Spring 2023. Thanks for reading.

View attachment 87776View attachment 87777

This looks interesting! From where can this be obtained? I'm guessing it also decodes Dolby Digital, and DTS? If so, I'm salivating...

 

[timbre4]

This looks interesting! From where can this be obtained? I'm guessing it also decodes Dolby Digital, and DTS? If so, I'm salivating...

The Pioneer AVH-P7600 (2003-2004 model 5.1) and AVH7800 (2005-2006 model 6.1) pop up on eBay from time to time. The list price was $2200 and I have one of each model. Think I paid less than $500 each time. Yes, it plays DVD-A, DVD-V, DTS CD formats played through some great D/A converters. Large outboard processor box with amp channels built in. You can add an AUX in, Bluetooth adaptor, backup camera (if you can find those accessories.

 

[jaybird100]

The Pioneer AVH-P7600 (2003-2004 model 5.1) and AVH7800 (2005-2006 model 6.1) pop up on eBay from time to time. The list price was $2200 and I have one of each model. Think I paid about $500 each time. Yes, it plays DVD-A, DVD-V, DTS CD formats played through some great D/A converters. Large outboard processor box with amp channels built in. You can add an AUX in, Bluetooth adaptor, backup camera (if you can find those accessories.

I was thinking of using it for a home application that would require decoding of DD and DTS.

 

[timbre4]

I was thinking of using it for a home application that would require decoding of DD and DTS.

I'd think that would be needlessly complicated! Would not an AVR's decoding not handle your needs?

 

[jaybird100]

I'd think that would be needlessly complicated! Would not an AVR's decoding not handle your needs?

Actually, no.

 

[timbre4]

Actually, no.

Perhaps FOOBAR decoding would suffice. Could you briefly explain the requirements?

 

[jaybird100]

Perhaps FOOBAR decoding would suffice. Could you briefly explain the requirements?

The idea is to make CD's, for playing in my car, from BD-A discs, which would be fed through an Involve encoder. I'd have to pass the second HDMI output from the blu-ray player into a device that can decode DTS (not bothering with Atmos), the output of which would be fed into the encoder, and then to a CD recorder. I'd then have an RM-encoded disc that could play stereo in the car, or surround at home. Just something I want to experiment with. I've already done this, quite successfully, from SACD's. The results were quite excellent.

 

[timbre4]

Okay now I understand the end game. Here's something to consider:

1. Use Make MKV ($40 for unlimited; FREE with limit) to get the Blu Ray files into a form to extract 6 channel stream from:

2. Use MMH (Music Media Helper - FREE) to make the selected 6 channel stream into 5.1 FLAC files.

3, Feed the 5.1 FLAC files to Involve Encoder.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Okay now I understand the end game. Here's something to consider:

1. Use Make MKV ($40 for unlimited; FREE with limit) to get the Blu Ray files into a form to extract 6 channel stream from:

View attachment 99618

2. Use MMH (Music Media Helper - FREE) to make the selected 6 channel stream into 5.1 FLAC files.

View attachment 99619

3, Feed the 5.1 FLAC files to Involve Encoder.

The Involve Encoder only inputs 5.0 (no sub input) and I'm guessing you'd want to merge the LFE with the fronts somehow (to taste) and also drop the res. to 44.1x16 before sending to the Encoder for the 2 channel for a CD?

uh, our dear @chucky3042 may want to weigh in on this thread

 

[timbre4]

The Involve Encoder only inputs 5.0 (no sub input) and I'm guessing you'd want to merge the LFE with the fronts somehow (to taste) and also drop the res. to 44.1x16 before sending to the Encoder for the 2 channel for a CD?

Use the Remix channels option in MMH 7 I'd think.

 

[jaybird100]

The Involve Encoder only inputs 5.0 (no sub input) and I'm guessing you'd want to merge the LFE with the fronts somehow (to taste) and also drop the res. to 44.1x16 before sending to the Encoder for the 2 channel for a CD?

uh, our dear @chucky3042 may want to weigh in on this thread

Yes, I want to merge the LFE into the front channels. The Blu-ray player lets me do that. The decoded 5 channels are fed into the encoder, and the two-channel output of the encoder goes directly into the CD recorder. This minimizes the number of devices the signal needs to pass through, and the end results are excellent. The discs play very nicely in stereo, with nothing missing, and decode beautifully through the Surround Master.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Yes, I want to merge the LFE into the front channels. The Blu-ray player lets me do that. The decoded 5 channels are fed into the encoder, and the two-channel output of the encoder goes directly into the CD recorder. This minimizes the number of devices the signal needs to pass through, and the end results are excellent. The discs play very nicely in stereo, with nothing missing, and decode beautifully through the Surround Master.

What will you use for a CD recorder?

 

[jaybird100]

What will you use for a CD recorder?

Sony RCDW-5C. To clear this up, I've done this already, from SACD's. The 5 channel output from my SACD player connects directly to the inputs of the Involve encoder, and the output of the encoder goes directly into the recorder. The SACD player doesn't play Blu-ray
, so I need a separate decoder for DTS. I happen to have one that can do the job, and I've gotten excellent results that way, too. I prefer to use the Involve encoder over any software-based device, so I can take advantage of the "smart encode" process. It may take down the resolution a notch, but my ancient ears can't really tell the difference. The widened stereo effect, when played in the car, works! And, when played back through the Surround Master, is difficult to tell from the original discrete source.

 

[par4ken]

The Involve Encoder only inputs 5.0 (no sub input) and I'm guessing you'd want to merge the LFE with the fronts somehow (to taste) and also drop the res. to 44.1x16 before sending to the Encoder for the 2 channel for a CD?

uh, our dear @chucky3042 may want to weigh in on this thread

With most music discs there is often not a lot in the lfe channel and usually there is sufficient bass in the main (usually front) channels already. For the most part I would not worry about it.

While the Involve encoder is designed to create an encoded signal that sounds more like regular stereo, you could alternatively just QS encode in software (like Adobe Audition). That way there is no additional A/D and D/A conversions necessary. You could also mix in the lfe channel if you think that it is necessary. Downsample to CD format as a final step.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

With most music discs there is often not a lot in the lfe channel and usually there is sufficient bass in the main (usually front) channels already. For the most part I would not worry about it.

While the Involve encoder is designed to create an encoded signal that sounds more like regular stereo, you could alternatively just QS encode in software (like Adobe Audition). That way there is no additional A/D and D/A conversions necessary. You could also mix in the lfe channel if you think that it is necessary. Downsample to CD format as a final step.

I’ve never tried the Audition encoder, is it an add on or already in there somewhere? And do you believe it would be as effective as an Involve?

 

[Sonik Wiz]

I’ve never tried the Audition encoder, is it an add on or already in there somewhere? And do you believe it would be as effective as an Involve?

There is no QS matrix encoder native to Audition & I've never seen a 3rd party VST plug in. It's just so simple to do with the channel mixing tools already in AA 3.

Ya got your 4 chs open in the multi-track view. Blend the front chs by 7dB in phase & blend the rear chs opposite phase by 7dB. Mix down to 2ch. That's it.

Technically this is more like RM encoding. But AA has a phase shifter if you want to get fancy & do the +- 90 deg phase shifts on the rear chs like QS.

Chucky would call this a dumb encoder because the matrix blend is fixed while the Involve box dynamically shifts the blend amounts depending on analyzed front/back content. On the other hand doing it on the PC allows you alter & experiment with with the blend coefficients to suit your own particular needs. For example it would be just as easy to do the early EV matrix encode that gave very wide front & stereo separation and good front to back depth when decoded. Anyone who's listened to an Enoch Light EV 4 disc played back on the Surround Master knows what I'm talking about.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

There is no QS matrix encoder native to Audition & I've never seen a 3rd party VST plug in. It's just so simple to do with the channel mixing tools already in AA 3.

Ya got your 4 chs open in the multi-track view. Blend the front chs by 7dB in phase & blend the rear chs opposite phase by 7dB. Mix down to 2ch. That's it.

Technically this is more like RM encoding. But AA has a phase shifter if you want to get fancy & do the +- 90 deg phase shifts on the rear chs like QS.

Chucky would call this a dumb encoder because the matrix blend is fixed while the Involve box dynamically shifts the blend amounts depending on analyzed front/back content. On the other hand doing it on the PC allows you alter & experiment with with the blend coefficients to suit your own particular needs. For example it would be just as easy to do the early EV matrix encode that gave very wide front & stereo separation and good front to back depth when decoded. Anyone who's listened to an Enoch Light EV 4 disc played back on the Surround Master knows what I'm talking about.

Thanks for clearing that up, thought it was something like that. I'll be watching this thread as I have the encoder that's still in the box; another project for whenever What jaybird100 is attempting to accomplish here isn't what I was thinking for application; more like what Bill was doing with his online radio show. Or, would be interesting to hear how something like a rare CD-4 conversion to Involve (QS) would hold up, as in discrete comparison.

Sounds like jaybird100 still has a lot of decisions and work ahead of him

 

[par4ken]

I’ve never tried the Audition encoder, is it an add on or already in there somewhere? And do you believe it would be as effective as an Involve?

As Sonic stated there is no VST plug-in that I know of but someone did write scripts (or else a session file) for both QS and SQ encoding. I'm sure that I had it on my hard drive but can't find it right now. QS and RM, EV-4, DY are very easy to do as he has described. SQ is a bit more work.

Involve is effective in that the stereo image in stereo playback is less affected or narrowed by the encoding process. If stereo playback is not a big concern that advantage is inconsequential.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Or, would be interesting to hear how something like a rare CD-4 conversion to Involve (QS) would hold up, as in discrete comparison.

Sounds like jaybird100 still has a lot of decisions and work ahead of him

The closest thing I've come to that is when Suzanne Ciani made her Quadraphonic project available as discrete FLAC download. I encoded that & was able to do an instantaneous level match A/B comparison. It wasn't blind but no matter how close I listened I could not detect any change in fidelity or soundfield at all.

 

[par4ken]

Technically this is more like RM encoding. But AA has a phase shifter if you want to get fancy & do the +- 90 deg phase shifts on the rear chs like QS.

The +-90° phase shifts are super easy to implement using the "Phase Bug". I just checked and Phase bug is no longer available for download but I have it if anyone needs it. Audition has its own phase shift function built in but I don't think that it is as convenient as using Phase Bug.

To QS encode you add the signals, front pair and back pair together in the proper proportion, everything stays in phase. Then use the bug on the back pair. That was the big advantage of QS, no cancellation during encoding as everything stays in phase during the encode process.

It just occurred to me that the same process could be used with the EV and DY coefficients to make an encode immune to cancellation encode effects, plus the output phase would be correct when using a QS decoder!

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/phasebug_by_betabugsaudio#