Does Surround needs more then 4.0?

[Scottmoose]

Hi Scott, nice to read your mystic words, but I can understand nothing. If you write me in clear words, I can give an answer. Dietrich

Sorry. It's just a joke really:
Most audio 'purists' believe the distance a signal travels should be kept short to stop it being damaged, and should never be passed through processing equipment. So they really wouldn't like what you do, or any of the rest of us here either. That is their problem.
We, on the other hand, know that electricity travels at 186,000 miles or 300,000 km every second. Or nearly. Over a meter or two, it's impossible for a human to detect a difference. And a console won't 'damage' it either so long as the signal can pass through it properly.
Scott

 

[Quadro-Action]

Hi Scott, now I know, what you mean. Because I am not really perfect with the english/american language, "special" ot "joke" style will be unknown for me at first. Yes, I agree, what you mean. The High-End people don't like some additional elecdtronic working from source to the speakers - even not the controls for bass and treble.But that is nonsense, because the sources are often not perfect - and each has also his own sound-taste. And to realize a real 4-channel sound from the 5.1 digital-mediums we (the quadra-lovers) must connect a mixing-console. I will visite the IFA (Funkausstellung) in Berlin the next days . There I will ask, which new DVD-Audio player can make a mixdown to 4.0 - or why not.
Look to my next report from the IFA in the first days of september. Dietrich

 

[quadanasaziland]

The Pioneer 655a mixes down to four and it is a snap to set up. For about $200, can't be beat!

 

[quadjoe]

Hi All! Great thread. I am one who doesn't care for center channel either. I prefer 4.0 or 4.1 mixes (I don't mind the use of a sub-woofer, it adds depth.) Here's an interesting site by Wendy Carlos with some insight into Surround sound and she discusses speaker placement as well. http://www.wendycarlos.com/gosurround.html You might remember "Switched on Bach". Same person.

 

[rusinurbe]

In the stereo format If you want something to appear in the center you mix a proportionate amount of that track into both Channels. That is all weel and good except this means you get a drum kit 15 feet wide with a singer and a singer who takes up Pavarotti like ammounts of space as well. What we have go used to is this.
However if you go and see a small band in an intimate venue the drum kit is only 6 feet accross and the singer is stood right infront of you, usually.
To reproduce this you have the option to use the center channel and bring together a more 'realistic' approach to mixing the sound.
I personally a quite in favour of an agressive use of all channels where appropriate to the music.

Why not have the listener palced where the singer is stood with the guitar sidewalled one side and the bass sidewalled teh other.

Is the critisism of Pet Sounds because the mix is not adventurous enough or too adventurous. The same with Neil Youngs Harvest.

I do not think that there are very many truly adventurous 5.1 Mixs yet because everyone compares the mix that they have with the Stereo equivelent and that mindset needs to change, and maybe it will when someone has the nerve to release a multichannel only release which everyone wants. Sometime off yet.

Final word I wonder if message boards had been arround at the dawn of Mono to stereo mixing in the sixties if as much would have been as has been hear. Didn't George Harrison complain about the CD of Sgt Pepper saying it did not sound right, and all because he only had the original mono Mix.

 

[fdrennen]

After reading some interesting articles and comments here all around surround - old and new - I think, it would be also interesting for any surround-freaks to read, what I and some other fans (not only here in Germany) think about the important points of consumer audio-surround.
To cut it short, we convinced quadraphonic-listener (often since 30 years) means, that audio or music-surround needs no more than 4 channel - and a separate center and the LFE woofer-information is superfluous for surround at home and hifi music-reproduction. Of course, everybody is the ruler about his surround-equipment and will have his own taste for music and technic, but I think, the channel- and technic inflation by today-surround needs some clearness. And if you have yesterday buyed a 5.1 installation - you are already "old-fashioned" (to say it witty), because the industry will promote now 6-7.1 and THX-Holman dreams from 10.2 and the last cry for the cinemas is now 16.4.
But whichever way you look at it - the base of all surround and the 360°soundfield is the quadraphonic 4.0. All channels more will be only a support or a completion. And too much of this, it will smear the sound (especially by different technics by amplifier or speakers of new complete systems). What may be possible and needed in a cinema, must not be taken at home. For example the center: Also quadraphony will produce for listening 5 channels (by only transmitting 4) - with a phantom center, which will be enough for a well locating for 1-2 people (if there are more in the room, there is more speaking than listening). And the LFE (I don't mean the subwoofer as completion for litttle sattelites) by +10 dB about the average sound-level is only needed for cinema-surround and will be by music only bothering. Any new surround-mixes will have anyhow too much basses. There could be written something more. But I think, it is a fact, that many of the majority of today stereo-listeners don't like to have a complicated surround-technic. The step from 2 channel to 4 will more easier as to 6 or 7 or 12. Especially, when the 4 equal channels (not all by "modern" surround will be equal) will produce already a real convincing surround-sound. It can be easy and it should be easy.Only than music-surround will have a real breaktrough for many - the moaning industry and us surround-fans and those, who don't know, how satisfying surround sounds by music. So I hope, that also a few AV journalists and sound-engineers will read here, what some surround-freaks wants. And what is your meaning as surround-fan about 4.0 also today? I am very stretched to read your echo. Dietrich Räsch

I am using full range speakers and a sub and the addition of that sub makes listening to organ music more satisfying, but I feel that the more chanels can make the expierence more "realistic", maybe one of the biggest problems we have is with the recording engineers as well as the sound techchies at live events. I listen to pipe organs at church and know that the enviornment is most important to the sound that is percieved. Going to live events I am often disturbed to find that everything is miked even in great acoustic surondings. the piano is close miked makinig it sound like you have your ear inside of it, there is a mike inside of the bass drum, and the bass amplifier has a mike infornt of it.
and the recordings we listen to are constructs of a reality only in the ear of the producers and engineers. What are we listening to? not music in a specific enviornment, but someones idea of what sounds "good".
if the objective in listening to suround sound is to produce a realistic soundstage what is a realistic soundstage?

 

[bizmopeen]

I am using full range speakers and a sub and the addition of that sub makes listening to organ music more satisfying, but I feel that the more chanels can make the expierence more "realistic", maybe one of the biggest problems we have is with the recording engineers as well as the sound techchies at live events. I listen to pipe organs at church and know that the enviornment is most important to the sound that is percieved. Going to live events I am often disturbed to find that everything is miked even in great acoustic surondings. the piano is close miked makinig it sound like you have your ear inside of it, there is a mike inside of the bass drum, and the bass amplifier has a mike infornt of it.
and the recordings we listen to are constructs of a reality only in the ear of the producers and engineers. What are we listening to? not music in a specific enviornment, but someones idea of what sounds "good".
if the objective in listening to suround sound is to produce a realistic soundstage what is a realistic soundstage?

I would argue that the objective to listening in surround is NOT NECESSARILY to produce a “realistic” soundstage, though that might be steering the argument in another direction. A huge chunk of pop/rock recording since the advent of the Beatles has largely eschewed “realism” for the sake of painting on a larger sonic canvas for greater impact, and whereas many can argue the merits of one school of thought versus another, it’s undeniable that recording and mixing for a “realistic soundstage” is no longer the sole (or even necessarily primary) concern driving a good many releases.

I do agree, however, that the role of the engineers and mixers is key in determining what works best for the surround environment. If you don’t get someone who knows what they’re doing you can get unlikeable sonic mush (see the “Frampton Comes Alive” section for examples from other board members…)

 

[rusinurbe]

I would argue that the objective to listening in surround is NOT NECESSARILY to produce a “realistic” soundstage, though that might be steering the argument in another direction. A huge chunk of pop/rock recording since the advent of the Beatles has largely eschewed “realism” for the sake of painting on a larger sonic canvas for greater impact, and whereas many can argue the merits of one school of thought versus another, it’s undeniable that recording and mixing for a “realistic soundstage” is no longer the sole (or even necessarily primary) concern driving a good many releases.

I like art analogy, what kind of art do we want is it that we want, realist impressionist or surrealist. Is it Balls to Picasso, or la Giaconda (Sic) :bounce . Every one has an idea what art is but there are plenty of arguments about what good art is.
I believe that everyone who likes 5.1 4.0 etc surround music and appreciates a good mix also appreciates that it must come from the source tapes. How the engineers and artist colour the canvas after that is down to personal preference.
How does the saying go you can please some of the people some of the time ...
:friday: :brew :wave