Steven Wilson Dvda is not a dead format, Can be played at home(Oppo) and in Cars(Acura)

[ssully]

All these comparisons you guys are reporting, they were all done blind and level-matched, right?

 

[Blrac]

I can't say that I am partial to one format over the others, as honestly I am a surround sound whore, meaning that I will take almost anything in surround over plain stereo. I admit I prefer lossless over compressed, but for me any surround music is better than stereo. That being said, I like the ease of SACD the best because I put it in and it plays like a regular cd without having to turn on the tv and leave it on (when all I am really doing is listening, not watching). Because of this, I have to respectfully disagree that music formats (cd, dvd-a, sacd) are going away. I think there are too many people that just want to listen, not listen and look at pictures. I am not opposed to having liner notes, lyrics, videos, pictures, whatever, but I buy high rez music because it is that, music. If blu ray is the new way to go, I am fine with that, as long as it plays like music, but so far it doesn't, and to me that is a turn off. I realize that it is very popular, but don't underestimate ease of use and convenience. People are lazy and not technicaly savy, for the most part, and don't care about extras (videos, lyrics, etc.) when it is difficult to access. Also, I stated in another post, I would suggest trying to market my surround music in blu ray form as a "preview" like a regular movie does, if you could find a way to make that happen. I honestly think having a song or at least a sample would recruit a lot of people to trying out surround music. Just my opinion....

 

[elshagon]

Even though it's a pain, I rip my bluray tracks to my computer and then convert them over to flac & .mlp for dvd-audio authoring. This way you get the best of both worlds. All the extras which you can do on bluray, and dvd-audio for the car.

 

[elroy]

... I would suggest trying to market my surround music in blu ray form as a "preview" like a regular movie does, if you could find a way to make that happen. I honestly think having a song or at least a sample would recruit a lot of people to trying out surround music. Just my opinion....

That reminds me of the Acura DVD-A sampler discs. When you hear the stereo version of China Grove followed by the 5.1 Elliot Scheiner DVD-A version, it is so dramatically different and (I think) better. Most people don't get the chance to hear a direct comparison unless they have one of us bugging them. I think a Blu-Ray sample track would be a nice idea if you could get folks to actually listen to it.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Wow, if Steve is moving away from DVD-A then I better start stocking up on them while I can.

 

[jaybird100]

DVD-A definitely needs to be supported, and not only for the car market. There are still more DVD players out there that can play the DD and DTS tracks from those discs, and MLP is nearly indistinguishable from DTS-HD MA. If it's more expensive to author BD-A discs than DVD-A, there's another reason to continue supporting DVD-A.

 

[leevitalone1]

That reminds me of the Acura DVD-A sampler discs. When you hear the stereo version of China Grove followed by the 5.1 Elliot Scheiner DVD-A version, it is so dramatically different and (I think) better. Most people don't get the chance to hear a direct comparison unless they have one of us bugging them. I think a Blu-Ray sample track would be a nice idea if you could get folks to actually listen to it.

Everything on the Acura disc is sweet, the Steve Miller cut with complete space jam, and the intro is wild.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Everything on the Acura disc is sweet, the Steve Miller cut with complete space jam, and the intro is wild.

Listening to that song at an auto show was the main reason I bought a new TL a few months ago. PT's Fear of a Blank Planet was one of the first DVD-A's I bought mainly because of the ratings on this web page. Before that I'd never even heard of them and now I'm buying all of the PT and SW DVD-A's I can so I can listen to them in my car. How ironic.

 

[leevitalone1]

Listening to that song at an auto show was the main reason I bought a new TL a few months ago. PT's Fear of a Blank Planet was one of the first DVD-A's I bought mainly because of the ratings on this web page. Before that I'd never even heard of them and now I'm buying all of the PT and SW DVD-A's I can so I can listen to them in my car. How ironic.

PT is the most popular band that no one heard of. Sad.

 

[dobyblue]

MLP is nearly indistinguishable from DTS-HD MA.

Both are lossless compression schemes, there should be zero difference between them if they're using the same master file.

That said I agree with Steven that DVD-A potential market is but a tiny fraction of the potential Blu-ray audio market, and to be honest you cannot listen critically to music in a car unless you're parked. There is no comparison to a great surround system in the home where you can close your eyes and truly experience the music. Now granted you can listen to DVD-A at home as well, but the market is just nothing compared to Blu-ray which is in over 65 million homes, over 30% of which have surround sound according to outdated numbers from DEG.

 

[leevitalone1]

Both are lossless compression schemes, there should be zero difference between them if they're using the same master file.

That said I agree with Steven that DVD-A potential market is but a tiny fraction of the potential Blu-ray audio market, and to be honest you cannot listen critically to music in a car unless you're parked. There is no comparison to a great surround system in the home where you can close your eyes and truly experience the music. Now granted you can listen to DVD-A at home as well, but the market is just nothing compared to Blu-ray which is in over 65 million homes, over 30% of which have surround sound according to outdated numbers from DEG.

just nothing compared to Blu-ray which is in over 65 million homes, over 30% of which have surround sound according to outdated numbers from DEG.

and another 80% don't realize they can play 5.1 music until the small % you tell about it say, "I never did think of that!"

 

[JonUrban]

.....and to be honest you cannot listen critically to music in a car unless you're parked......

Well, while you may not be able to nit-pick a 5.1 listen in a car, you certainly can enjoy it, experience it, and appreciate the surround mix and audio clarity that a HiRez 5.1 playback can give you in a car. Everyone, without exception, that has ridden in my car has heard the huge difference between iPod/CD and DVD-A, stereo or 5.1.

There is nothing more perfect, to me, than cruising down a long, boring highway listening to a great 5.1 DVD-A, official or home made. I will be saddened when car based disc players go the way of the tape player, which is sooner than later.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Even though it's a pain, I rip my bluray tracks to my computer and then convert them over to flac & .mlp for dvd-audio authoring. This way you get the best of both worlds. All the extras which you can do on bluray, and dvd-audio for the car.

Do you have a tutorial on how to do that and what programs to use? I'd be willing to take the time to do the conversions if I could listen to them in my Acura.

 

[Blrac]

Of those almost 20 million people who have surround, how many have the pos cube speakers and a junk sub? Imagine what surround music sounds like on that. Granted it is better than plain stereo, but is it enough to go get them to buy surround audio? So far it appears as the answer is no. Otherwise I would expect a lot more music being released on blu ray. I still stand by my suggestion to Steven to try to get samples of his amazing mixing in surround onto a popular forthcoming blu ray release. Obviously I don't now what the cost is, but imagine the potential with that many players out there. Although as Rob pointed out before it also has to do with extras...what else do I get for twice the cost of a cd or download? Now people with the set up to appreciate the upgraded quality are probably all on this site already and we keep preaching to the choir. Which is why we reach out to people like Steven and ask for his help and show him our support, not only by purchasing his products but offering suggestions and expressing our eagerness to have more titles available to us. And go as far as the whole premise of this thread as to not kill off the dvd-a format, especially when so far blu ray audio has not taken its place. I still have hopes that none of the formats will die off. The irony I see is that if blu ray audio would take off, I think people find out about its predecessor, being sacd and dvd audio, and would think it plausible to have a resurgence in demand for them as well, especially considering some titles may never get duplicated into blu ray. Just my secret wishes, anyway.

 

[ssully]

Well, while you may not be able to nit-pick a 5.1 listen in a car, you certainly can enjoy it, experience it, and appreciate the surround mix and audio clarity that a HiRez 5.1 playback can give you in a car. Everyone, without exception, that has ridden in my car has heard the huge difference between iPod/CD and DVD-A, stereo or 5.1.

Then for CD vs DVD-A at least, I presume the 2 channel mastering is hugely different, and/or levels are vastly mismatched between playback inputs.
An iPod should't sound different either, if it's playing lossless files or high-bitrate lossy. 'Hi rez' formatting in itself really does not matter. Mastering does. 5.1 vs 2.0 does.

All that aside, IMO a well-insulated, parked car (motor off) with a wide-range sound system designed to make the driver's seat the 'sweet spot' is actually a pretty good way to experience audio.

 

[wavelength]

and to be honest you cannot listen critically to music in a car unless you're parked. There is no comparison to a great surround system in the home

As a rule, I try not to be envious of things but the ability to play dvd-audio while driving your car is definitely something I am envious of. I rarely play the radio because I am, and I freely admit it, a format bigot. When it comes to cars I am only willing to pay for a reliable set of wheels. I can't justify paying for luxury but unfortunately the cars with dvd-audio players are, for me, the luxury models.

 

[leevitalone1]

As a rule, I try not to be envious of things but the ability to play dvd-audio while driving your car is definitely something I am envious of. I rarely play the radio because I am, and I freely admit it, a format bigot. When it comes to cars I am only willing to pay for a reliable set of wheels. I can't justify paying for luxury but unfortunately the cars with dvd-audio players are, for me, the luxury models.

I'm with you-have not had the car radio on since I ought the thing. Just can't take less than what I have at home anymore. Very spoiled by high res. The cars that do have factory dvd a decks I'm sure are well insulated for exterior road noise and set up for the ability of the disc, I'll take two.

 

[peterzach]

Both are lossless compression schemes, there should be zero difference between them if they're using the same master file.

That said I agree with Steven that DVD-A potential market is but a tiny fraction of the potential Blu-ray audio market, and to be honest you cannot listen critically to music in a car unless you're parked. There is no comparison to a great surround system in the home where you can close your eyes and truly experience the music. Now granted you can listen to DVD-A at home as well, but the market is just nothing compared to Blu-ray which is in over 65 million homes, over 30% of which have surround sound according to outdated numbers from DEG.

Bluray is a good format, I know you prefer it but your statement of a car system being no comparison to a great surround system is very far from the truth. I think I have a pretty good home system,cost me in the range of $5000 but to be honest there are many times I prefer the car experience even with a bit of road noise filtering into the background of sound. Probably not a good idea as I would not be able to hear a emergency vehicle noise but the music sounds so good in the car that I crank it to levels where you can't hear road noise at all and the closeness of the speakers and way it was expertly balanced by Elliot Scheiner it truely is an amazing listening experience.
My driving time involves city driving so can't drive very fast and or waiting at lights so really am in a parked mode

The other factor for me is as most of the week is taken of either going to work and working so the car listening time is my aloted time for hearing these amazing mixes as non work time other duties come in to play so do not have that much home listening time.

peter

 

[timbre4]

Agreed. It may not be critical listening, but that is some of the most FUN listening and I think that is the point. I enjoy the same ELS system whenever I can.


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[elshagon]

Yes DVDAs are a little more convenient to play, but Blu-Rays have so many advantages to someone like me: one thing I love about Blu-Ray is that while you are playing an audio BD you can flip to all sorts of browsable art, scans, lyrics, other info, alternate versions, all of which without having to stop the audio from playing back. Not to mention far higher quality visuals, and much more space on the disc - for example on my recent Drive Home release, we couldn't make the DVD a DVDA without downgrading the quality of the video substantially to make space for the higher res audio. Given that choice there was no question that the visual material should take priority.

SW

to be honest you cannot listen critically to music in a car unless you're parked.

Do you have a tutorial on how to do that and what programs to use? I'd be willing to take the time to do the conversions if I could listen to them in my Acura.

Responding to a few different posts on this topic. First, I agree with what Steven said about the advantages one has by authoring to blu-ray. Not only do you have a much larger user base, but so many more features can fit on the disc. For those who want dvd-audio you can still convert the blu-ray over to a dvd-audio disc and re-author it. There may come a time when physical media disappears, but I don't see that anytime soon as consumers seem to want something besides a digital download or streaming.

Second, dobyblue's comment regarding car audio I have to disagree with entirely. I do about 75% of my listening now in the car (Hyundai Genesis). The Lexicon speaker system has 17 speakers and plays dvd-audio. The car is well insulated so there's very little outside noise to interfere with the listening experience. I assume other cars capable of playing dvd-audio are also set up to take advantage of the format. Sure it's different than listening at home, but I disagree with your statement of not being able to critically listen to music while driving. I think it's ideal for listening unless playing the Flaming Lips as the surround mix can make you a little dizzy

Cygnus asked on instructions on converting blu-ray over to dvd-audio. This would be better for another thread. I know there's already tutorials on how to author your own dvd-audio disc, so I'm guessing you just need a way to get it off the bluray. I either use AudioMuxer or DVD Audio Extractor to rip the audio into individual tracks. With both you choose the audio stream you want such as PCM, DTS HDMA or Dolby TrueHD and then convert those tracks to .wav or .flac files. From there you convert to .mlp. I find it takes about and hour to convert an entire blu-ray to .mlp for dvd-audio authoring. I know this isn't much of a tutorial, but you can look up dvd audio extractor or AudioMuxer for tutorials on ripping blu-ray tracks.