Lennon Legend Mixes (2003) vs Imagine Box (2018)

[JonUrban]

I started comparing the mixes of some of the titles that appear on both of these releases as suggested by someone here and found the following. The first one I did was "Happy Christmas (War is Over)". There are subtle but interesting differences.

The 2003 mix has John in the fronts but not the center. The center is strum guitar and a very clear bell and drum kit. There are also echo voices in there for the chorus, but if you want to hear the glock (or whatever they were using for a bell, this is the channel you want!)

The 2018 mix has John in all 3 front speakers, and the bell is moved to the rears. The overall presentation is about the same on both versions with these exceptions.

At the beginning, when John and Yoko wish their kids "Happy Christmas", the call outs are in the rears on the 2003 mix, and in the fronts on the 2018 mix.
Here are the wav shots, they don't look that different, but you can see there is no lead vocal in the center of the Legend mix (Lower WAV file below).

 

[JonUrban]

IMAGINE - 2003 Legend vs. 2018 Official Release (Not the Outtakes or Extended from Disc 2)

A few differences here. As you can clearly see in the WAV files below, the 2003 mix has the intro piano solo in the center with nothing in the rears or fronts. Johns vocal is primarily in the center in 2003 but it's more spread across the fronts in the 2018 mix. The rears of the 2003 mix are orchestra only, while the 2018 has the vocal present in the rears.

These are the main differences really. One thing I noticed is that if you solo the center in the 2003 mix, the lead vocal is off-timing with the piano and instrument track. I would imagine (!!) that this gives the echo chamber effect that John liked. If you solo the center of the 2018 mix, the music and vocal are perfectly in time.

 

[JonUrban]

JEALOUS GUY - 2003 Legend vs. 2018 Official Release (Not the Outtakes or Extended from Disc 2)

This comparison is very similar to the IMAGINE comparison above. The lead JL vocal is primarily in the center, with a bit of strings and the drums, NO PIANO, in the 2003 mix. The 2018 mix has the piano in all of the front channels, as well as the vocal. In the rears of the 2003 version is the orchestra with no trace of vocals, the 2018 has the orchestra with a bit of the vocal track. Other than these things, they're pretty much the same. Neither is a demo track for surround.

 

[JonUrban]

POWER TO THE PEOPLE - 2003 Legend vs. 2018 Official Release (Not the Outtakes or Extended from Disc 2)

These two are very similar. The biggest difference is that the center channel has no lead or chorus vocal in the 2003 mix at all. It's pretty much bass and drums. The hand claps are very clear in the rears. The front channels have the delay-effect with the vocals in this mix as well. You only notice it when you solo these channels, not when you listen to the whole thing. The Legend audio is longer and not faded out. I would guess this has to do with the accompanying video.

The 2018 mix is pretty much you run-of-the-mill standard ho-hum modern surround mix. Chorus in the rears and fronts, John in the center, fronts and a bleed into the rears. This song really does not lend itself to surround, so there's not much to complain about with either mix.

 

[JonUrban]

as a side not, I have to say I had forgotten how good some of these Lennon Legend mixes were. They are quite good. Surprisingly enough, stuff like "Mother" and "Working Class Hero" are good enough to make me really long for a "Plastic Ono Band" box, for I like that album far more than "Imagine". It probably won't happen, but we can always wish. That's what we surround wacko's do, ya know?

 

[4-earredwonder]

as a side not, I have to say I had forgotten how good some of these Lennon Legend mixes were. They are quite good. Surprisingly enough, stuff like "Mother" and "Working Class Hero" are good enough to make me really long for a "Plastic Ono Band" box, for I like that album far more than "Imagine". It probably won't happen, but we can always wish. That's what we surround wacko's do, ya know?

I think, Jon, based on the overwhelming response to IMAGINE, Plastic Ono Band would seem to be ripe for a 5.1 upgrade and equally stunning box set. I believe it's more popular among Lennon fans than Imagine!

And since it does include ONO.........I'm sure Yoko will do her best to see it happens!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

The problem with POB is, musically its even more sparse than Imagine.

 

[fredblue]

IMAGINE - 2003 Legend vs. 2018 Official Release (Not the Outtakes or Extended from Disc 2)

A few differences here. As you can clearly see in the WAV files below, the 2003 mix has the intro piano solo in the center with nothing in the rears or fronts. Johns vocal is primarily in the center in 2003 but it's more spread across the fronts in the 2018 mix. The rears of the 2003 mix are orchestra only, while the 2018 has the vocal present in the rears.

These are the main differences really. One thing I noticed is that if you solo the center in the 2003 mix, the lead vocal is off-timing with the piano and instrument track. I would imagine (!!) that this gives the echo chamber effect that John liked. If you solo the center of the 2018 mix, the music and vocal are perfectly in time.


View attachment 35945

thanks for going to the time and trouble to do all this!

looking at the waveforms for the new BD, the Front L&R and Centre appear louder than the Lennon Legend DVD Front L&R and Centre, relative to the Rears in both instances?

 

[JonUrban]

thanks for going to the time and trouble to do all this!

looking at the waveforms for the new BD, the Front L&R and Centre appear louder than the Lennon Legend DVD Front L&R and Centre, relative to the Rears in both instances?

Yes, the new release is louder than the old DVD, but remember the DVD was meant to be a video product, so that might have something to do with it.

 

[fredblue]

Yes, the new release is louder than the old DVD, but remember the DVD was meant to be a video product, so that might have something to do with it.

its the sensation of over-loudness of the Front 3 channels on the album 5.1 mix on BD 1 that bugs me a tad (so much so I felt compelled to dial down my Fronts & Centre by 3dB apiece, which helped even out the Front to Back balance somewhat for me).

 

[Simon A]

The problem with POB is, musically its even more sparse than Imagine.

Well not a problem for the music, but for creating a solid Multichannel mix, I agree.

 

[edisonbaggins]

its the sensation of over-loudness of the Front 3 channels on the album 5.1 mix on BD 1 that bugs me a tad (so much so I felt compelled to dial down my Fronts & Centre by 3dB apiece, which helped even out the Front to Back balance somewhat for me).

This is so common that I'm planning to set up a 2nd "scene" or whatever the setting is called on my new Denon, to make this adjustment quickly when I get home. -3db to FL/C/FR.

 

[Spinz]

At the beginning, when John and Yoko wish their kids "Happy Christmas", the call outs are in the rears on the 2003 mix, and in the fronts on the 2018 mix.
Here are the wav shots, they don't look that different, but you can see there is no lead vocal in the center of the Legend mix (Lower WAV file below).

Thanks for the pics and analysis. I recently picked up the Legend dvd and was uncertain about buying the new Imagine box due to the fact that I didn't like much of the music, just the few "hits". After your comments I probably won't get the new box. What interested me about the new Imagine box was all the alternate versions in surround. Can you tell me what you thought of them if you've had the time to experience it? Also I'm not sure I understand your comment about being able to see that there's no lead vocal in the center channel of the wav shots. I think I know what you mean when I look at it but it's hard to know what's being represented by those waves just by looking at the pic. All you really know is that some sound is being produced and the relative amplitude.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Thanks for the pics and analysis. I recently picked up the Legend dvd and was uncertain about buying the new Imagine box due to the fact that I didn't like much of the music, just the few "hits". After your comments I probably won't get the new box. What interested me about the new Imagine box was all the alternate versions in surround. Can you tell me what you thought of them if you've had the time to experience it? Also I'm not sure I understand your comment about being able to see that there's no lead vocal in the center channel of the wav shots. I think I know what you mean when I look at it but it's hard to know what's being represented by those waves just by looking at the pic. All you really know is that some sound is being produced and the relative amplitude.

He doesn't have to see it. With Sound Forge or Audacity he can listen to each channel independently or together with other channels in whatever combination he chooses.

 

[sjcorne]

After your comments I probably won't get the new box. What interested me about the new Imagine box was all the alternate versions in surround. Can you tell me what you thought of them if you've had the time to experience it?

You should check out some of the pre-release thread. The general verdict is that the 5.1 and quad mixes of the actual album aren't terribly exciting, but the 5.1 "raw studio mixes" on disc 2 are crazy discrete with the drums and bass in the rear channels.

 

[fredblue]

You should check out some of the pre-release thread. The general verdict is that the 5.1 and quad mixes of the actual album aren't terribly exciting, but the 5.1 "raw studio mixes" on disc 2 are crazy discrete with the drums and bass in the rear channels.

that about sums it up!

RT nailed it when he said (paraphrasing) the Raw In-studio surround mixes on Blu-ray 2 are akin to CBS having done Imagine in Quad back in the 70's!

i interpret that as being super discrete, adventurous, hugely engaging, exciting, immersive, unafraid to stick an entire drum kit in one of the rear speakers.. you get the picture, its like you are right there.

i love those surround mixes on BD 2! just my kinda surround music.. thing!

 

[JonUrban]

...... Also I'm not sure I understand your comment about being able to see that there's no lead vocal in the center channel of the wav shots. I think I know what you mean when I look at it but it's hard to know what's being represented by those waves just by looking at the pic. All you really know is that some sound is being produced and the relative amplitude.

 

[Spinz]

I just had a flashback to getting my homework returned to me by my high school English teacher with BIG RED CORRECTIONS. I'm suddenly feeling a need to go pop a few pimples. No offense intended.