'New' boxed Empire 440D quad cartridges; Anyone know how good these are?

[gazmono]

Mantra Audio are advertising they have a stock of original, unused Empire 440D quadraphonic Cartridges. Does anyone know what these are like? did they have a good reputation?
I am about to get a Sansui QRX-6001 and i want to play CD4 vinyl through it. Some say it's best to get a new design cart, others like the old ones. Buying second hand is obviously a gamble, but these are unopened. What do people think? they are quite cheap- only £40.

 

[Doug G.]

I wish I could make a more definitive comment but mine has a worn stylus so it's not in tip-top shape. (EDIT: See below).

However, the specs are similar to a 4000 D/I of which I also have and it works fine for CD-4. It has DC resistance of 430 ohms per channel so it definititely has the lower inductance of a quad cartridge. Made to work into a 100Kohm load instead of 47K.

The Empire quad cartridges had a fine reputation back then. Among the top.

40 pounds seems like a good price for one.

I hope it doesn't weigh that much, though. \:^)

Doug

 

[Malcolm2010]

Be careful, I bought one of these last year from Mantra. It was in a plain white box and the cartridge had an "Empire" sticker on it. Didn't look right to me, certainly not the same as the pictures floating about the web more like a poor copy. I returned it for a refund.

Malcolm

 

[Doug G.]

The white box wouldn't mean anything since they state they bought those cartridges in bulk. They would then, necessarily, have to put the cartridges in some kind of box.

The sticker sounds a bit odd. None of my Empires have a sticker but have the printing right on the metal shell. It's not impossible Empire changed to a sticker later because that printing comes off easily. EDIT: Unless, of course, you mean there's a little sticker right on the stylus housing, which should be opaque blue for a genuine 440D stylus. That would be entirely correct. BTW, Empire used two different styles of stylus guards. The first has a separate snap on guard made of metal and the second has a flip down guard integral with the plastic stylus housing.

The main feature to look for is the stylus cantilever. A genuine Empire will have a long, narrow, tapered cantilever. It looks very similar to the modern AT440MLa cantilever. Very delicate looking.

A cheap copy would not be expected to have a cantilever like that since it is expensive to produce.

Doug

 

[gazmono]

OK, Thanks, Not sure where that leaves me other than cautious. I have a couple of other options maybe you guys could help me choose. On ebay there are some AT12SA cartridges, then there is the Ed Saunders cartridge, which i haven't seen anyone on here mention. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Quad Linda]

At the risk of offending Empire fans, I'll add my two cents. In the late '70's, I was an Empire dealer. We sold Audio-Technica, Empire, Ortofon, Stanton, Micro Acoustics, Shure and a private label Audio-Technica line called Precept. Although, admittedly, we never sold the 440D, my experience with Empire cartridges was not great, even with the high-end models. They seemed to have stylii/cantilevers that weren't all that durable. As I recall, even the most expensive models had bonded stylii (metal with a diamond glued on top), as opposed to nude stylii (one diamond piece directly inserted into cantilever) that A-T and Ortofon use. To my knowledge, no client who experienced problems with Empire was using them for a DJ application, which is, admittedly, rough on stylii. We had a few Empire demo cartridges with cantilevers that bent or stylii that broke off. Personally, I never felt that they sounded all that great. I much prefer the sound of Audio-Technica moving magnet and Ortofon moving coil (different animal, I know) to Empire. I have used both those brands for over 35 years. Hopefully, this information will help you make an informed decision. My apologies if my candor has offended any Empire fans. That is my experience in selling Empire.

Linda

 

[Quadzilla]

OK, Thanks, Not sure where that leaves me other than cautious. I have a couple of other options maybe you guys could help me choose. On ebay there are some AT12SA cartridges, then there is the Ed Saunders cartridge, which i haven't seen anyone on here mention. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

There is nothing wrong with an AT12Sa Audio Technica, especially for CD-4 playback. AT branded the AT12S for a number of Japanese manufacturers for their quad gear, including JVC and Akai. The nice thing is that you could also pick up an eliptical or conical stylus for stereo and garage sale LPs, to save the Shibata for quadradisc use. I am using an AT20Sa on a Rega turntable that is dedicated to CD-4 playback. AT was in it from the beginning. Empire was never a big player when it came to CD-4.

 

[Doug G.]

You hurt my feelings, Linda.

\:^)

In fact though, the upper end Empires did have nude styli. My 2000 E/III, 2000Z, and 4000 D/I all have them. My 440D has a bonded stylus but still works for CD-4.

The Empires may have been a little more delicate than other brands because they were striving to reduce the stylus/cantilever mass to a minimum. I know I bent the cantilever and knocked off the diamond of my 2000 E/III early on but that was with the aid of alcohol (in me, NOT on the stylus\:^).

Anyway, I know I wrote above that the stylus on my 440D is worn. However, I took it out and mounted it today and it sounds just fine and tracks for CD-4 without distortion. Maybe I did something wrong when I first tried it. I did buy it used and I just assumed the stylus was too worn for CD-4.

So, for about 80 bucks, that's a good deal.

The AT12Sa is a good CD--4 cartridge too. I have a little later incarnation of it (AT912Sa) and it works very well.

I haven't tried the Saunders cartridge and I have heard mixed impressions of it but I don't see why it wouldn't work as it has a Shibata stylus.

Now, if you could find a Pickering XUV-4500Q or a Panasonic strain gauge EPC 450C II or EPC451 C....

EDIT: I have to disagree with Quadzilla re Empire. Their 4000D series was right up there with the other top CD-4 cartridges.

Doug

 

[Quadzilla]

I have to disagree with Quadzilla re Empire. Their 4000D series was right up there with the other top CD-4 cartridges. Doug

I didn't say that they were no good Doug, I said that they weren't a big player in quadraphonic gear ... neither was Shure. My first magnetic cartridge was an Empire, but they are NOT known for their CD-4 prowess.

 

[Doug G.]

I didn't say that they were no good Doug, I said that they weren't a big player in quadraphonic gear ... neither was Shure. My first magnetic cartridge was an Empire, but they are NOT known for their CD-4 prowess.

OK, in the context of total quad gear, I guess they weren't major like Pioneer or Sansui. Of course they were a bit restricted as they didn't produce amps or receivers anyway. Like Shure.

They did have that controversial ad with the nude girl in it for their speakers though. And that was a quad ad.

Talk about a totally gratuitous use of female nudity! Ah well, such was the late sixties - early seventies.

Doug

 

[Quadrockasaurus]

They did have that controversial ad with the nude girl in it for their speakers though. And that was a quad ad.

Talk about a totally gratuitous use of female nudity! Ah well, such was the late sixties - early seventies.

Doug

Thanks Doug.:banana:...a great cue to test my new scanner......from '72....the ad in question.

 

[Doug G.]

It was my understanding there would be no pornography in this thread. \:^)

Anyway, I like how they stated it's no problem (putting four speakers in a room) when they look like these.

Ya right!

"Douglas, Two are OK, I guess, but NOT four!"

\:^)

Which reinforces my assertion that it was the logistics of quad equipment in one room and the cost that killed quad more than the different formats. It wasn't/isn't THAT difficult accomodating all of them.

Doug

 

[gazmono]

Thanks for all the input guys. After much consideration/dithering I have decided to save up and get an AT440mla (which was recommended by quadrockasaurus initialy). That way I can leave it on and play stereo with it and i won't worry that the quad performance is'nt as good as it could be.
Next problem is LOW CAPACITANCE WIRING I have been reading a bit about this. I have an SME series 3 arm. Any chance I could rewire it myself? Is there any info on how to do this out there?
P.S. Not sure if I should start a new thread for this.

 

[Doug G.]

I don't think I would worry too mudh about the wiring in the arm itself right off the bat. Just be sure the cables from the turntable to the demodulator (receiver, in your case) are low capacitance.

I don't know the configuration of the wires in the SME arm. Are they just four separate wires? If so, it's most likely OK.

Doug

 

[Quadzilla]

Low capacitance wiring is not really an issue today. Most decent cables are already low capacitance. In the 70s, when dental floss passed for speaker wire, it was a much bigger deal. I rewired my Rega RB300 tonearm with an Incognito kit, but the SME III has a MUCH narrower arm tube, so I wouldn't try that one. It is very low mass as well, so I am not sure how well it would match to a medium compliance AT140MLa ... or most CD-4 capable (Shibata or similar stylii) cartridges for that matter.

 

[Doug G.]

Well, after finding out my 440D actually works, I have left it on the table and have been listening to many Quadradiscs yesterday and today.

I have to say I am VERY impressed! It sounds terrific!

I wouldn't have a problem always using it for CD-4 (even though I have several others).

Doug

 

[Quad Linda]

I DO remember that ad. Thanks to Quadrockasaurus for jogging my memory. In the ensuing years, I found that sort of casual attire does enhance the Quad experience. It GREATLY INCREASES frequency response, but diminishes separation!

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, Doug. I was simply mentioning my experience.

Linda
Countess of CD-4

OK, in the context of total quad gear, I guess they weren't major like Pioneer or Sansui. Of course they were a bit restricted as they didn't produce amps or receivers anyway. Like Shure.

They did have that controversial ad with the nude girl in it for their speakers though. And that was a quad ad.

Talk about a totally gratuitous use of female nudity! Ah well, such was the late sixties - early seventies.

Doug